What's Wrong With Practicing Guitar Scales?

**targuit** · 01-02-2014, 05:22 PM

Scales are good. Segovia Diatonic major and minor in all keys. Harmonize them.

But scales do not teach you rhythmic patterns, dynamics, and the type of voice leading that can impart an energy to your playing, a pulse and lyricism. Playing actual songs does.

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

you really seem to be under the misconception that using CST implies you must "play scales."

Fwiw, I'm with you completely on what is necessary to play classic jazz sounds...All I'm saying is, if a player using CST sounds bad its the player, not the method...I should also mention that for as much as I defend CST, it's not my main approach when shedding a tune either.

Not really. I think that's what it is when it's badly taught.

I think we are actually in complete agreement in fact.

The quibbling is to with teaching style more than anything, I'm beginning to explore a more historical approach to jazz education. That said, try teaching a 17 year old who's just heard his first Scott Henderson record about Lester Young haha.

Most of the jazz students who seek me out seem to be interested in swing and gypsy jazz though... Not many who teach this style...

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Me? Yeah, of course.

Just interested to know - your influences seem to be horn players and pianists which is cool.

Guitar is nice too though :-)

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer

You talkin' to me?

Yes, I do, but in the never-ending process of learning to play jazz, I took notice of how players were learning on other instruments, and scales were always part of the process.

Sometimes it seems that guitar players want to skip steps that everybody else has to go through.

Yeah I think scales are part of the whole package. There are no quick 'hacks.'

I think what I was concerned about is players getting obsessed with scales to the exclusion of all else....

**henryrobinett** · 01-02-2014, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer

Sometimes it seems that guitar players want to skip steps that everybody else has to go through.

It's always seemed that to me as well.

It always seemed to me that the Miles', Herbie, Jarrett, Rollins, Bird, Walton, Dexter, Brownie, Dizzy, Powell, Chick, were all closer to the source of what I was trying to understand. That sound was less typified by Wes or Jim Hall. So it seemed to make more sense to study those other guys who played piano or horns. I didn't want to play those instruments. I wanted to play guitar, but more like those guys and a little less than the typical guitar player, who often seemed to have missed a step or two.

Looking for flame retardant.

**henryrobinett** · 01-02-2014, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Yeah I think scales are part of the whole package. There are no quick 'hacks.'

I think what I was concerned about is players getting obsessed with scales to the exclusion of all else....

Absolutely. Me too. But it's a long process. Most guys abandon it less than halfway and just play scales before they've really absorbed them musically.

**unknownguitarplayer** · 01-02-2014, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Absolutely. Me too. But it's a long process. Most guys abandon it less than halfway and just play scales before they've really absorbed them musically.

It's a odd thing. On most other instruments, particularly reeds and brass, players spend their entire careers worrying about tone production and playing the instrument "right", independent of their jazz skills. On guitar, it's pretty common to get comfortable with one approach early and run with it (less than halfway, as you say), using gear to try and smooth over any gaps. Ultimately, it's like ChristianM77 said, there are no quick hacks.

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

It's always seemed that to me as well.

It always seemed to me that the Miles', Herbie, Jarrett, Rollins, Bird, Walton, Dexter, Brownie, Dizzy, Powell, Chick, were all closer to the source of what I was trying to understand. That sound was less typified by Wes or Jim Hall. So it seemed to make more sense to study those other guys who played piano or horns. I didn't want to play those instruments. I wanted to play guitar, but more like those guys and a little less than the typical guitar player, who often seemed to have missed a step or two.

Looking for flame retardant.

BURN THE HERETIC! :-)

I have to disagree re Wes and Jim Hall, but would agree more if you'd mentioned some other players (not saying who haha).

I didn't get the fuss about these two for years, and was mostly in to Coltrane, so I see where you are coming from. I've changed my mind over the years.

To me Wes and Jim Halls language are every bit as developed as the best horn player. Both these players' sophistication is not entirely obvious at first listen, and it's only by digging deeper into their music that I've really started to appreciate them. I don't feel ANY steps have been missed out here.

There is perhaps an argument that some guitarists (starting with Charlie Christian) make do with a fairly limited bag. I see this as a strength, but I can also see why some might see it as a failing. Perhaps Wes might be seen as someone like that, but I don't see it that way. Sometimes there's a lot of creativity to be had within a very specific area.

On the other hand you have someone like Django. No-one can play like Django. You can learn your 50 gypsy jazz licks and frankly have no idea what's going on in his solos. I'm not sure any guitarist has come close in terms of complete freedom.

But hey, personal taste. There's some guys who say Brownie is boring.

I have to say there are few guitar players that can spin a line as effectively as a good horn player. That's something I'm after!

**mr. beaumont** · 01-02-2014, 06:57 PM

@Richb

Key centre comes AFTER youve been through scales arps intervals....[/QUOTE]

I can vouch for that...you should hear how bad I sound when I play like that!

Seriously though--to me, the most damaging "jazz pedagogy" is that of the teachers that START with a key center approach...

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

@Richb
Seriously though--to me, the most damaging "jazz pedagogy" is that of the teachers that START with a key center approach...

Why?

**unknownguitarplayer** · 01-02-2014, 07:27 PM

Once in a great while a player comes along who somehow puts together exactly the right pieces early on in their development so that they're able to make real music when others are still dealing with mechanics. Perhaps that's one definition of talent, but really, there's no planning or predicting it, or even explaining it. But when it happens, making music begets making more music and learning by doing, and soon enough, you've got Wes, Django or a handful of others. It's inspiring, but the sad fact is that the rest of us mere mortals have to go through all the steps (and missteps) that we talk about here, and sometimes, the missteps overtake the positive ones.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-02-2014, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Why?

I really don't think the player ever gets the sound of jazz in their ears that way. Call me old school, but I think you gotta know how to play changes before you can say "forget playing changes."

I also say this because I've had three students now who started learning jazz from local rock guys who approached it this way, and they were really lost...

**henryrobinett** · 01-02-2014, 09:15 PM

The Segovia scales just were silly to me. Exactly -- strange illogical shifts, as least as it relates to playing jazz. They made zero sense to me.

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I really don't think the player ever gets the sound of jazz in their ears that way. Call me old school, but I think you gotta know how to play changes before you can say "forget playing changes."

I also say this because I've had three students now who started learning jazz from local rock guys who approached it this way, and they were really lost...

Local rock guys wouldn't be able to teach jazz even if they knew every arpeggio in the book - unless they'd really checked out the music. I suspect that's the real difference between you and the rock guys - not some method!

I actually find it quite useful to understand the lines I transcribe over Rhythm Changes A say, from a key centre point of view - say b6 of the key rather than b9 over V7. Needless to say the notes are identical, but the concept is different.

BTW - pedantic smart arsing around - all that said - arpeggio practice rocks! I've got so much from it.

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer

Once in a great while a player comes along who somehow puts together exactly the right pieces early on in their development so that they're able to make real music when others are still dealing with mechanics. Perhaps that's one definition of talent, but really, there's no planning or predicting it, or even explaining it. But when it happens, making music begets making more music and learning by doing, and soon enough, you've got Wes, Django or a handful of others. It's inspiring, but the sad fact is that the rest of us mere mortals have to go through all the steps (and missteps) that we talk about here, and sometimes, the missteps overtake the positive ones.

Why? :-P

Also didn't Wes start playing at 21?

**mr. beaumont** · 01-02-2014, 09:51 PM

Hall was light years ahead of Wes harmonically.

Doesn't make him better, mind you,.

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

I dont get u guys lumping Wes and Hall together. Wes was and is and ever will be whole universes ahead of a Hall.
The only guys who count in the classic jazz guitar ghetto are Wes, Benson and Metheny. Everybody else sounded like guitar players instead of musicians....Hall sounds like a musician, but it can be so nerdy and precious at times.

Ooooh that's fightin' talk! People are wrong on the internet! They need to be told!

I can see we might not see eye to eye on this issue. Unless you have a complicated pseudo intellectual reasoning which we can debate ad nauseum. :-P

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

Yeah. Illustrates my point perfectly. "White musicians disease", which is to think harmony or anything is somehow more important than time. Nerdy "clever" stuff always sounds so dumb in comparison to great feel and time. And Wes' time wasn't perfect, of the holy 3, Wes had the "shakiest" time, but still good. Benson has the grooviest time and Metheny has perfected the modern concept in time. Hall really didnt have thatkind of time at all. But at least he made musical sense, which is a great and rare commodity in jazz.

Basically I agree in principle.

Benson and Wes are incredible. But also Hall swings like crazy too in a different way. He swings FAR more than Metheny in my humble estimation...

No love for Emily Remler? She SWUNG.

Charlie Christian outswung all of the above. FACT. :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 01-02-2014, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Richb

Yeah. Illustrates my point perfectly. "White musicians disease", which is to think harmony or anything is somehow more important than time. Nerdy "clever" stuff always sounds so dumb in comparison to great feel and time. And Wes' time wasn't perfect, of the holy 3, Wes had the "shakiest" time, but still good. Benson has the grooviest time and Metheny has perfected the modern concept in time. Hall really didnt have thatkind of time at all. But at least he made musical sense, which is a great and rare commodity in jazz.

Rich, you're being yourself again...i never mention his time, or that hall's time was superior. But if you want to go on a rant about time again, and how nobody has good time except for those who you say do, feel free, we have some new members who likely need their idols cut down to size.

harmonic concept counts too...Hall was one of the first to get that you could play more than bop on guitar...

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Rich, you're being yourself again...i never mention his time, or that hall's time was superior. But if you want to go on a rant about time again, and how nobody has good time except for those who you say do, feel free, we have some new members who likely need their idols cut down to size.

harmonic concept counts too...Hall was one of the first to get that you could play more than bop on guitar...

I think Rich's point - that we spend too much time talking about harmony and not enough talking about rhythm is really spot on.

After all, notes are just filler for the rhythms, no? If you took the rhythms of a Wes solo alone, it would still make good music. Hmmmm might try that tomorrow.

'Rhythms first, notes second' Dizzy

**nick1994** · 01-02-2014, 11:08 PM

I certainly agree with Mr Beaumont in regards to Hall's modern approach to phrasing, His lines certainly don't sound like Joe pass or Wes. Hall is a very motific player, he builds on his ideas. Though, I'm not saying he is better than Wes, just that he had a more modern approach to improvising.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-02-2014, 11:09 PM

"We" do?

**AmundLauritzen** · 01-02-2014, 11:10 PM

It's either "kitchy bebop grandpa music" or it's "too nerdy"... Make up your mind, Richb

**christianm77** · 01-02-2014, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

"We" do?

I mean me. I mean you. I mean the forum of jazzguitar.be. How many forums on rhythm and feel as opposed to harmony? There's not even a category for it.

**unknownguitarplayer** · 01-02-2014, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I think Rich's point - that we spend too much time talking about harmony and not enough talking about rhythm is really spot on.

After all, notes are just filler for the rhythms, no? If you took the rhythms of a Wes solo alone, it would still make good music. Hmmmm might try that tomorrow.

'Rhythms first, notes second' Dizzy

Totally agree about Wes. And yes, he started playing when he was 21, but everything he did (e.g. learning Charlie Christian solos note for note) moved him forward, without many (any?) wrong moves. Scott LaFaro started playing bass pretty late too, and Metheny and Birelli started young. Thing is, right from the start they all moved in a pretty straight line toward greatness. The rest of us take much more twisted paths, and ultimately, we realize that we just have to do it step by step and take it as far as we can. It's as you said before, there are no quick hacks.