What's Wrong With Practicing Guitar Scales?

[AlsoRan]

Many times, I have heard members complain about practicing scales, implying that it is overrated.
But, I have found that when playing fast, and playing a sequence, scalar figures are more comfortable than for instance, arpeggio-based figures.

I can see where someone could say scales (including pentatonic) are more useful in Rock, but I like using them in Jazz as well, even though they playing a scale through a given chord progression may not outline the chords as well as targeting chord tones and tensions.

[yaclaus]

Learning scales is IMO essential to jazz playing. But one should in my mind not think Dm7- G7 - C is Dorian, Mixolydian and Ionian. That is intellectualization.

But in order to develop a good ear I think one should practice Major, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, The half-whole and vice versa, the whole tone and also a few other exotic scales such as harmonic major.

But when playing I prefer thinking more lyrically, melodic and dynamic.

Check out Mick Goodricks first part of The Advancing guitarist where he advocates mastery of scales.

[mr. beaumont]

Nothing at all.

but I question your approach if somehow you're getting different notes available to you via scales vs arpeggios...these are systems of visualization, not prescriptions of what to play....I might "visualize" a Dm7 arpeggio, but I still have 12 notes available in my line...

[kris]

Scals are very important but more important is how to practise them.

[henryrobinett]

Scales are very necessary, even crucial. The problem, if there is one, is defining one's playing exclusively by PLAYING scales. Scales are a vital tool. But players whose playing is too scalar tends to be very boring. Like Jeff said, they're mainly a system for visualization and helps with conceptualizing thought on the guitar.

[M-ster]

Scals are very important but more important is how to practise them.

So, share your approach, please?

[NSJ]

In terms of fretboard visualization, I am trying to imagine a scenario where, no matter where I am, the scale, the arpeggio, and the chord (triad or 7th) are readily available at any time, without more or less changing positions or radically altering fingerings.

[jster]

In terms of fretboard visualization, I am trying to imagine a scenario where, no matter where I am, the scale, the arpeggio, and the chord (triad or 7th) are readily available at any time, without more or less changing positions or radically altering fingerings.

Which scale though? I have the arpeggio and the chord ready. But I dont always have the scale ready. People will say there are many choices. Fair enough. But how should one organize those choices? Suppose you have a secondary ii-V, ie the V is a secondary dominant. Now which scales are you going to use over the ii? Or, consider ATTYA. How many available scales do you pros really have ready for each chord? And how do you rank them? What exactly does that menu look like?

[henryrobinett]

You should try to practice them as if they're all the same thing. That's where the challenge comes in when doing this on the guitar. I pluck the arpeggios and chords directly from the scale patterns. I see them as coming from those, which ever scale patterns they are. So I see them all as more or less the same thing, just different details, like a pianist probably does.

[kris]

So, share your approach, please?

I like the way Scofield practise...:-)
F.ex.:
Attachment 9976
His great edu video"On Improvisation" is a good example how to practise scales.

[Dana]

Here's how I practice them. I got this from Jerry Bergonzi's book 'Developing a Jazz Language'.

Jerry does mention that scales alone will only get you into the right ballpark, not necessarily the right base. That's where practicing chord tones comes in.

This video only shows one way of doing it (Root to 7th in eighth notes). There's various other ways..

Eighth notes ascending: 1-5, 1-7, 3-7, 3-9, 5-9, 5-11 (resolve 11 to 3 or 5)
Eighth notes descending: 5-1, 7-1, 7-3, 9-3, 9-5, 11-5

Sixteenth notes ascending: 1-9, 3-11 (resolve 11 to 3 or 5), 5-13
Sixteenth notes descending: 9-1, 11-3, 13-5

The Scofield video mentioned above is great as well. He mentions playing scales in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, etc.

[ecj]

Nothing.

I've never understood people who get upset when people practice scales. Sure, it doesn't sound good to run up and down scales when you are soloing, but it also doesn't sound good to run up and down arpeggios when you are soloing. It also doesn't sound that good to play just the root note of each chord, or to just play the melody of the tune six times in a row.

Plus, most melodies are written based on scale theory, and if you want to understand why the melodies are written the way they are, you have to understand the scales. It seems weird to me that people who get down on chord-scale-theory are always going on about playing lyrically or melodically when most melodies are constructed from CST principles.

[Patrick2]

I agree with the visualization, as Jeff mentioned. I am also a strong advocate of saying the intervals as they're played. Take a look at this chart below. It'll show you an arp, then in the next grid to the right, it highlights the chord, then in the next grid to the right, it defines the arp, the major diatonic scale and also the available tensions. It's all done in the third position with the "2nd finger never moves" rule. The staff and the tab below gives you the fingerings for each grid above it.

Then, on the lower grids, it defines the lydian IV in the same position.

The grids to the far right is ultimately how you should be "visualizing" it . . as it superimposes all of the fingerings in one position. If you speak the intervals while you're practicing them . . it opens up a whole new world of understanding.

[Patrick2]

Wish I could have gotten the chart larger and more clear.

[jster]

Plus, most melodies are written based on scale theory, and if you want to understand why the melodies are written the way they are, you have to understand the scales. It seems weird to me that people who get down on chord-scale-theory are always going on about playing lyrically or melodically when most melodies are constructed from CST principles.

But how often can you really tell what scales the melody is drawn from? I asked about ATTYA above. Isn't the more typical situation that there are several scales that might be implied from the harmony+melody?

[Dana]

But how often can you really tell what scales the melody is drawn from? I asked about ATTYA above. Isn't the more typical situation that there are several scales that might be implied from the harmony+melody?

Hmmm, I can't say I would agree with that. If the melody is very short that might be the case, but once you have a few notes going it's pretty easy to figure out the scale. Take 'Happy Birthday' for example.

Just my humble opinion.

[henryrobinett]

For me on ATTYA the scales are simple. Fm7 is the vi, so the parent scale there is Ab. vi - ii - V - I - IV. Then it does the same thing in Eb moving to G. But the CHORDS are what is important. If you treat that first chord, Fm7 as a ii, you'll hear it, or I hear it, as wrong. Same thing with the Cm7 as a vi. If I follow the scale and make the chords/arpeggios as part of the movement of the scale patterns, chasing the chords and intervals, it sounds right. The scales, chords/arpeggios are the same thing. It gets complicated if you try and treat them differently or as autonomous entities. The arpeggios help you articulate the right sounds or right notes for the scale patterns.

[AmundLauritzen]

I think the most important thing is to break out of playing the scale linearly up and down when you get to the point where doing any more of that with the scale you're practising becomes redundant.

Play the scale in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, octaves, maybe even diatonic 9ths and beyond if you can make it happen.
From each intervallic configuration, there are variations available to create an endless amount of patterns, patterns from which you can eventually begin to construct a language! That's when it really happens, moving on from mechanics to music.
When you get tired of intervallic patterns, add one note and play through the scale with triads: play the diatonic triads built from the scale in position ascending and descending. Then play them up and down the neck on different string sets. All inversions all keys.
You never get done with intervallic permutations of any scale, not even the major scale! The possibilities are endless!

I really like the 1235 Coltrane patterns. Take the visual of the scale and see where they "fit" in like pieces in a puzzle. I categorize things a lot like that, seeing arpeggios as visual shapes inside the scale shape. When playing, I think only as much as necessary. Most concepts are anchored to a root note that triggers the visual, or another shape connected to a shape and so on so forth.

Practicing scales in different intervallic configurations strengthens the finger to ear connection. Put arpeggios in the scales as well and you are starting to arrive at the point where you can play something and from the end point of that idea, you'll have an abundance of intervallic options to continue your line.

That's what it's all about. The nuts and bolts of it, is having multiple pathways leading to and from any destination on the fretboard so you can create endless variations.
The mechanics are necessary to arrive at that.

[TH]

Nothing wrong with a dictionary either but fresh creative music comes from exercising options. In the case of scales, maybe the bad rap comes from thinking of a scale as the zombie running of the notes in line like the same express train each time.
A list of scales, appropriate diatonic choices to be inside the changes, good personal choices when creating tension (7th chord choices and substitutions, etc) all come from practicing the right note choices, the command of scales-but not necessarily linearally. For me that means thinking of scale practice as 7 (or 6 or 8 or 12) notes that can connect chord tones, outline quartral harmony, approach another note, create a motivic figure or a lyrical line. Like the words of a dictionary, a scale is the outlining of an option. That's the way I look at them and that's the way I try to practice them.
Be rhythmic when you practice them. Long notes, short notes, rests, dynamic changes, phrases... all open to you when you use a scale.
The best way to use a scale... with your ear. Practice singing a scale and if you can't hear it, do question the appropriateness of playing something just because your hand can do it fast.
When you do practice a scale, do commit to it for a LONG time. Live with it, play the notes slowly, and savour the musical value of every note. If you don't know what this means, then you're still scratching the surface (or some other part of your anatomy.)
That's my take on it anyway. Just one opinion...
David

[jster]

I should have thought of something better than ATTYA. Damn flu. But still, for ATTYA, what are the scales for the Dbm7|Cm7 near the end?

[jster]

Hmmm, I can't say I would agree with that. If the melody is very short that might be the case, but once you have a few notes going it's pretty easy to figure out the scale. Take 'Happy Birthday' for example.

Just my humble opinion.

I'm glad you say that. And I agree for simpler tunes. But I was thinking of more complicated tunes. I asked in another thread about scale choices over a Parker tune (Confirmation) and the answer I got seemed to be that I shouldn't use scales over a Parker tune. And if I really have to, then I should use some trial and error to see what sounds best! I really just want(ed) to use scales to fill out one fast arpeggio based pattern, but nobody wanted to give me the inside choices.

[TH]

I should have thought of something better than ATTYA. Damn flu. But still, for ATTYA, what are the scales for the Dbm7|Cm7 near the end?

Key of Ab, your C-7 would be your III- which you'd use a phrygian choice of notes.
The Db could be thought of as a modal sub (part of a Db-7 Gb7 turnaround sound... the IV- is a handy one to know), and you'd use a dorian.
Hey, it's a good idea to keep your mind open to catching some theory. It'll allow yourself to make and recognize some hip sounds and know what to do with them.

Just to give you a quick guide,
I=Ionian
II-= Dorian
III- =Phrygian
IV=Lydian
V7= Mixolydian and all sorts of really neat brothers with different alterations
VI- =Aolean
VII-7b5 =Locrian

That and some common substututions that work in V7 situations and you should be able to figure out a lot.
Good luck
David

[randalljazz]

I should have thought of something better than ATTYA. Damn flu. But still, for ATTYA, what are the scales for the Dbm7|Cm7 near the end?

Db melodic minor would be the most typical choice, although you could make the theoretical case for a raised 4th in the Db, which contains the note of the tonic key, but gives an exotic sound (4th mode of Ab harmonic major)...

C phrygian would require the least number of changes to the home key (the section does not modulate). you could play C aeolian, which would imply lydian for the tonic key...

[yaclaus]

Maybe because thinking scalewise on such a tune is difficult, you can play a little bit of blues in F on Confirmation, but in general it´s very much about 1-3-5-7-9 over chords with passing tones and enclosures.

However, you can think of it in terms of scales:

FM7 - Major Eø - Locrian A7 - Altered/mixolydian b9 etc. Dm7 - Dorian G7 - Altered mixolydian etc. Cm7 - Dorian
F7 - altered, mixolydian etc Bb7 - Mixolydian, Lydian dominant Am7 - Dorian D7 - altered, mixolydian G7 - mixolydian
Gm7 - Dorian C7 - altered mixolydian.

And in ATTYA:

DbM7 - Lydian Dbm7 - Dorian Cm7 - Dorian.

So much dorian, other options anyone?

This also demonstrates that thinking in terms of scales really lacks the implementation of chromaticism, integrating lines as a whole, chord tones and actually not having to play over every chord all the time.

[henryrobinett]

I think of Dbm7 and Cm7 both as ii chords.