Examples of using Melodic Minor Modes

Nuff Said · 07-10-2011, 01:23 PM

To really get into the Melodic minor modes, I spent months practicing using just Melodic minor modes.

Melodic Minor modes over Major 2-5-1
Dm7 = Dorian b2 (MM 2nd Mode)
G7 = Lydian Dominant (MM 4th Mode)
Cmaj7 = Lydian Augmented (MM 3rd Mode)

Melodic Minor modes over Minor 2-5-1
Dm7b5 = Locrian #2 (MM 6th Mode)
G7Alt = Altered scale (MM 7th Mode)
Cmin = Melodic Minor (MM 1st Mode)

I then played these modes over the 2-5-1s in standards I knew.
It seemed to work for me, I now use the Melodic minor modes naturally in my playing.

Any more ideas for using MM modes?

Enjoyment is the key
Nuff

**JakeAcci** · 07-10-2011, 01:34 PM

Why dorian b2 and lydian dominant for major II V? Those don't seem like strong choices to me. I like lydian augmented for I though.

**m78w** · 07-10-2011, 01:46 PM

I like to use Melodic Minor over ii and V7, so like this in a ii-V-I in Major

Dm7 = D Melodic Minor (DmMaj7)
G7 = D Melodic Minor (G7(#11))
Cmaj7 = Lydian

A lot of the bopers and hard bopers liked this sound, allows you to play one scale over the ii and the V, but it gets you out of the plainer sounding Dorian-Mixolydian approach.

**P4guitar** · 07-10-2011, 02:31 PM

Another way to approach ii V I in C is

Dm7 = D Dorian (Dm)
G7 = Ab Melodic Minor (Db7(#11)) or C Melodic Minor (G+)
Cmaj7 = C Ionian or C Lydian

I don't consider D Dorian as the same as C Ionian even though they're the same notes. The reason being is that the chord tones (the notes to emphasize) are different.

TH · 07-10-2011, 03:17 PM

Lydian dominant 1/2 step above your I (major or minor) is a good choice in the V7 spot. Lydian dominant a whole step below the major root is also a nice sound (When Sunny Gets Blue) especially when preceeded by a IV-7.

Good for you for working on these. By the way, when I'm using mm based substitutions, I don't feel the necessity of changing the quality of the target chord once it's reached, I just use these sounds as interesting ways to replace the existing sounds in the ii-7 V7 slot.

Don't take my advice when it comes to how this works though, you do something that's your own with enough conviction, people will copy you.
David

**Meggy** · 07-10-2011, 03:27 PM

Been working on the same approach for the minor 2-5-1's, I agree it's a great way to approach things, and there are some hip beboppy sounds that can be gotten. Nice to transpose a phrase from the 2 chord up a minor 3rd for the 5 chord, then resolve it to the minor. I do often use the old Dorian mode for a straight minor 7 type chord on the 1 though. But especially effective with emphasise on the notes for the minor maj7/9 arpeggio derived from the melodic minor I think.

Hadn't considered the use for major 2-5-1's but cheers for the idea, sounds very interesting and potentially some hip sounds there as well I imagine. Good stuff!

Nuff Said · 07-10-2011, 03:44 PM

Thanks for the ideas, I'm trying to use as many Melodic minor modes as possible, to really get into the mm modes.

With practice, I'm now naturally playing mm modes. It only really started to work for me when I got into the modes and not the parent Melodic minor relationship.

Like using the Major scale modes, Dm7 = D Dorian not C Ionian
Likewise using the Melodic Minor Modes, G7 = G Lydian Dominant not D Melodic Minor.

Thanks
Nuff

**Meggy** · 07-11-2011, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Nuff Said

Thanks for the ideas, I'm trying to use as many Melodic minor modes as possible, to really get into the mm modes.

With practice, I'm now naturally playing mm modes. It only really started to work for me when I got into the modes and not the parent Melodic minor relationship.

Like using the Major scale modes, Dm7 = D Dorian not C Ionian
Likewise using the Melodic Minor Modes, G7 = G Lydian Dominant not D Melodic Minor.

Thanks
Nuff

It does really open up your ears I think, hard work to get it into one's natural repertoire of stuff (at least it is for me!) but worth it for the results. Have you seen the Emily Remler teaching videos (now on YouTube inevitably)? These are great for melodic minor stuff on the 5 chord, both the altered mode (super locrian) and the lydian dominant.

Nuff Said · 07-11-2011, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Meggy

Have you seen the Emily Remler teaching videos (now on YouTube inevitably)? These are great for melodic minor stuff on the 5 chord, both the altered mode (super locrian) and the lydian dominant.

Thanks, I haven't watched that video for a long time, Emily Remler was a fantastic player, with a beautiful tone, I have some of her cds, I also have the videos, she uses the Altered mode on resolving Dominant chords and the Lydian dominant on non-resolving Dominant chords. She also names them by the parent melodic minor scale, which I personally feel makes it more complex. She has some great lines, I wish I could play like that.

Thanks again
Nuff

**brwnhornet59** · 07-11-2011, 01:13 PM

Naming the parent key actually makes things easier as long as you know the key you are in. Much quicker to know the overall key than to think in modes. When I analyze, i will think of what degree of the scale,(mode), is being played. Great for knowing the flavor of what is being implied and working that into the overall approach. But when you are playing in real time, things can go by way to fast to have to think individual modes. So preparing in the practice room so you may enjoy the freedom when on stage, is my approach.

In other words, do both!

Nuff Said · 07-11-2011, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

When I analyze, i will think of what degree of the scale,(mode), is being played.

Everyone learns in different ways, but for me personally, I just play lines in the mm mode for the chord, I don't have to think what degree of the mm scale.

Its the same as when playing modes of the major scale, most players don't have to think what degree of the major scale they're playing lines in.

Nuff

**brwnhornet59** · 07-11-2011, 01:50 PM

So you are thinking about how that chord fits into MM, thereby you are analyzing. But there is more than one parent key to play MM over any given chord. You may use MM in 3-4 even 5 different keys depending how in or out you want to sound. So for me this is paramount and also the reason I analyze. I am never satisfied with learning new approach's. I want it all.

Nuff Said · 07-11-2011, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

So you are thinking about how that chord fits into MM, thereby you are analyzing. But there is more than one parent key to play MM over any given chord. You may use MM in 3-4 even 5 different keys depending how in or out you want to sound. So for me this is paramount and also the reason I analyze. I am never satisfied with learning new approach's. I want it all.

I agree, hearing how each Melodic Minor mode sounds over each chord is really the key to playing them, its not really about what method is used.

Nuff

**hed_b94** · 07-11-2011, 04:18 PM

why do you call them modes?!
modes ARE NOT just scale 'inversions'.
It's just a way of showing the different unknown modes through something familiar (the major scale..)

Nuff Said · 07-11-2011, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by hed_b94

why do you call them modes?!
modes ARE NOT just scale 'inversions'.
It's just a way of showing the different unknown modes through something familiar (the major scale..)

The Melodic Minor Scale And Its Modes

Nuff Said

**princeplanet** · 07-12-2011, 02:04 AM

Do you guys sometimes think that some players are getting into MM modes too early? I think I can tell when players who mess with that stuff don't have a solid grounding in more basic "in" choices.... You know, the ol' "You gotta learn 'IN' before you venture 'out' ".... or somethin'....

**gingerjazz** · 07-12-2011, 07:09 AM

Hi Meggy,+1 on Remler.Do you ever play the arpeggios of the mm scale over your altered chords.For example if you were to play over G7 you might use Ab MM .I like to use the arps from the harmonized Ab MM scale in particular the Abm/maj7 arp and the Maj7#5 arp from the third degree of the scale.

**Kman** · 07-12-2011, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Do you guys sometimes think that some players are getting into MM modes too early? I think I can tell when players who mess with that stuff don't have a solid grounding in more basic "in" choices.... You know, the ol' "You gotta learn 'IN' before you venture 'out' ".... or somethin'....

If you are struggling with the MM you can use half/whole diminished. Nice fingerings and an extra note to play with.

**JakeAcci** · 07-12-2011, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Do you guys sometimes think that some players are getting into MM modes too early?

Yes, agree.

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I think I can tell when players who mess with that stuff don't have a solid grounding in more basic "in" choices.... You know, the ol' "You gotta learn 'IN' before you venture 'out' ".... or somethin'....

I don't personally think it's an issue of in vs out, but rather just having a firm understanding of the consequence of different pitch collections against the harmony.

Example being the dorian b2 over ii7 in a ii7 V7 I - the dorian b2 over a m7 has 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7.

To be able to use that sound I think a player should be able to hear in their head, and sing, a variety of material using just the m7 chord tones, then the addition of conventional tensions 9 and 11, then 13...so at that point being able to hear a lot of conventional sequences within "dorian," possibly with or without the 13. Then hearing the 13 better, and then and only then hearing that b9...then hearing all this in the context of the progression, etc.

Hmm, maybe it is in part an issue of hearing more inside choices first...

**P4guitar** · 07-12-2011, 10:38 AM

Nah...if MM turns people on they should do it if they're able. The MM scale was my key to jazz many decades ago and without it I'd probably have given up because the jazz sound needs that scale in the tool kit.

It's a very valuable skill to be able to play different scales over chords while still emphasizing the chord tones. Those players who stick to the major scales and add compensating notes to accommodate the chord of the moment don't sound very good to me - sorry to say that but that's how I hear them. Playing MM is one way to understand and play vertically, a critical skill IMO.

**whatswisdom** · 07-12-2011, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by 4thstuning

MM scale was my key to jazz ... the jazz sound needs that scale in the tool kit. ... It's a very valuable skill to be able to play different scales over chords while still emphasizing the chord tones. ... Playing MM is one way to understand and play vertically, a critical skill IMO.

Excellent post. That's why it's called the "Jazz Minor." BTW: Does anyone have some very familiar tune references to remember the sound of the important modes of MM? What do you think of? What stands out when you hear the lydian dominant sound in your head? Altered? I'm thinking of the way common tunes are used to help beginners learn intervals--"Here Comes the Bride"--perfect 4th, etc. Any classic examples (melody or harmony) from the jazz book. Ellington, Shorter, Miles, Monk, etc... Just a thought.

**P4guitar** · 07-12-2011, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Excellent post. That's why it's called the "Jazz Minor." BTW: Does anyone have some very familiar tune references to remember the sound of the important modes of MM? What do you think of? What stands out when you hear the lydian dominant sound in your head? Altered? I'm thinking of the way common tunes are used to help beginners learn intervals--"Here Comes the Bride"--perfect 4th, etc. Any classic examples (melody or harmony) from the jazz book. Ellington, Shorter, Miles, Monk, etc... Just a thought.

Good question...and one I can't answer because I don't think that way.

To me the best way to learn MM is just apply it anywhere it'll fit...and it'll fit in so many places. A good starting place is the V of the ii V I cycle. Learn that and one if off to a good start.

**FatJeff** · 07-12-2011, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Excellent post. That's why it's called the "Jazz Minor." BTW: Does anyone have some very familiar tune references to remember the sound of the important modes of MM? What do you think of? What stands out when you hear the lydian dominant sound in your head? Altered? I'm thinking of the way common tunes are used to help beginners learn intervals--"Here Comes the Bride"--perfect 4th, etc. Any classic examples (melody or harmony) from the jazz book. Ellington, Shorter, Miles, Monk, etc... Just a thought.

The Mark Levin "Jazz Theory Book" has an entire section on MM and its modes (oops, I mean, scale inversions). For each of these, he discusses real-world examples of song that use those modes. Hope this helps.

**Meggy** · 07-12-2011, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by gingerjazz

Hi Meggy,+1 on Remler.Do you ever play the arpeggios of the mm scale over your altered chords.For example if you were to play over G7 you might use Ab MM .I like to use the arps from the harmonized Ab MM scale in particular the Abm/maj7 arp and the Maj7#5 arp from the third degree of the scale.

Absolutely! yes I do, and got this whole thing from the Emily Remler instruction videos originally. So over an altered G7 chord, I would go for Ab MM as you say, and often use notes from the Ab min/maj 7/9 arpeggio. But also I would play MM up a 5th over a non-resolving 7 type chord, so for a G7 in this instance it would be a D MM, and again the D minor/maj 7/9 arpeggio brings out cool notes. And over minor 7b5 chords it's the MM up a minor 3rd, so for a Gm7b5 chord I'd go for a Bb MM, and again the Bb min/maj 7/9th arpeggio works well. It's pretty cool IMO as you don't have to learn a massive number of arpeggio shapes. I'm still working on this stuff though, and it is pretty much what the OP was saying anyway.

Don't know if you've looked on the Remembering the life and music of legendary jazz guitarist Emily Remler website, but in the Lessons section you can download audio recordings, plus lesson notes, for lessons Emily gave to a student during the '80's - it's fascinating stuff, and you learn a few things that didn't get onto the videos (such as what she thought of Tal Farlow's time keeping!

) but it's good stuff. Apologies if you're already aware of this material though.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-12-2011, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Meggy

Absolutely! yes I do, and got this whole thing from the Emily Remler instruction videos originally. So over an altered G7 chord, I would go for Ab MM as you say, and often use notes from the Ab min/maj 7/9 arpeggio. But also I would play MM up a 5th over a non-resolving 7 type chord, so for a G7 in this instance it would be a D MM, and again the D minor/maj 7/9 arpeggio brings out cool notes. And over minor 7b5 chords it's the MM up a minor 3rd, so for a Gm7b5 chord I'd go for a Bb MM, and again the Bb min/maj 7/9th arpeggio works well. It's pretty cool IMO as you don't have to learn a massive number of arpeggio shapes. I'm still working on this stuff though, and it is pretty much what the OP was saying anyway.

To simplify things in my head, I think of the Red suggestion as an instance of the green suggestion: I think of Bm7b5 as G9(no root), so playing D MM minor over Bm7b5 is the same suggestion as playing D MM over G dominant.