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That seemed unusual to me too. I would have also thought the 5th would be a more traditional choice given the major 3d, b6, and minor 7. I'm sure the G Melodic Minor 1st mode could sound good if played the right way, but it's definitely not the traditional choice there.
Originally Posted by Nuff Said
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04-24-2012 12:05 PM
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First off, thank you guys for the help. I did mean 1st mode of C MM. So: Originally Posted by Nuff Said
C D Eb F G A B
11th 5th #5 7th R 9th 3rd : Chord tones of G7
The way Don Mock describes MM use over the G7 chord (always the V chord here):
1. G7b5: D MM (up a fifth from root of the functioning chord).
2. G7alt: Ab MM (up 1/2 step from "..............").
3. G7b9 or #9: F MM (down whole step "..........").
4. G7#5: C MM ( up a 4th "..............").
Finally, I am new here and it's great to meet all of you and to be included in these discussions.
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Hey man, no worries. I read Mocks book to, good stuff. These are typical usages.
Welcome aboard.
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Cool ....so i guess if you think min7b5 (d f ab c) from the 5th of dom as a reference...you could start stringing them together in a way that makes musical sense? Rhetorical thinking out loud stuff Originally Posted by Beatles4vr
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Melodic Minor Mode examples at 80bpm.
Chords are: Am7b5 D7b9b5 Gmin
Notes from the following:
"A" Melodic minor mode 6 for the Am7b5 (C Melodic Minor is the parent scale)
"D" Melodic minor mode 7 for the D7b9b5 (Eb Melodic Minor is the parent scale)
"G" Melodic minor for the Gmin
Please post slow examples of using Melodic Minor Modes.
Many thanks
GuyLast edited by GuyBoden; 07-30-2013 at 06:20 AM.
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***Mr Tangent noticed in retrospect that what he intended to be a short post became a long one. Bear with me***
You can go all melodic minor on major II-V-I's too.
Key of C:
Dm7 = D melodic Minor
G7 = Ab melodic minor(becomes G superlocrian)
Cmaj7 = A melodic minor(becomes C lydian augmented)
The lydian augmented is a very hip sound on tonic major chords. Like the symmetrical augmented, it is a good way to play a sort of resolved major sound that still isn't quite resolved. Good for a change after all the vanilla tonic major vocab.
Of course you can add the VI7 chord, A7 after the Cmaj7 so you can lead to the Dm7 again. For A7, the melodic minor option is Bb melodic minor(becomes A superlocrian).
Picking a progression and using the same scale(different modes) over all the chords is one of my favorite ways to drill scales. I like to do it with other scales too. It's a bit off topic, but while we're at it, here are some other scales to do the same with. Example is a II-V-I in the key of C
Minor and minor 6th pentatonic options:
Dm7 = D minor pentatonic(or D minor 6th pentatonic for a more dorian sound)
G7 = Bb minor pentatonic for an all altered sound(Bb minor 6th penta omits the b9 in favor of the root. A nice variation)
Cmaj7 = B minor pentatonic(B minor 6th pentatonic omits the 6th in favor of the #5 for a lydian augmented sound)
I hope this adds some ideas to the discussion.
By the way, I like to organize my melodic minor scales and my minor 6th pentatonics together.
Compare:
D melodic Minor: D,E,F,G,A,B,C#
D minor 6th penta: D,F,G,A,B
It's basically a melodic minor scale without the 2nd and the #7th. This means that you can use Minor 6th pentatonic subs for any melodic minor sub you would use. Consider A melodic minor, the option to create a lydian augmented sound on a Cmaj7 that I mentioned earlier. But now lets look at it from the perspective of C lydian augmented. Respectively, we will look at A minor 7th pentatonic from the perspective of C major 7th(making C the root)
C lydian augmented : C,D,E,F#,G#,A,B
A minor 6th penta from the root of C : C,D,E,F#,A
So in this case we get a lydian sound. But do keep in mind that the intervallic configuration of the minor 6th penta is what makes it tick. The intervallic chemistry can make the above minor 6th penta sub sound MORE HIP than the lydian augmented despite the lack of a #5. Yes, we have fewer notes to work with, but the intervals make it sound hip.
So what I'm getting at is that it's a great idea to locate the minor 6th pentatonics in the melodic minors(and all its modes) because this gives you a whole new palette of melodic minor that is INSTANTLY available to you in any situation you'd use melodic minor. Since the m6 penta is achieved just by omitting two notes from the melodic minor, it perfectly overlaps your melodic minor fingerings and you should construct your m6 pentatonic scales from the basis of the melodic minors if you don't already know them. I learned them by lowering the 7th of my minor pentatonics. Then later I had an eureka moment in seeing the similarity of m6 pentatonics and melodic minors and proceeded to integrate the m6 into the MM and life has become SO MUCH SIMPLER.
I hope this concept can help you guys increase your vocab for melodic minor. MM vocab can sound stale after a while. The m6 penta pool of notes create variety through omission and intervallic interest. So you could say you're actually not playing another scale than MM, but that you omit certain notes. This concept opened up my MM vocab a lot and I really recommend trying it out.Last edited by AmundLauritzen; 06-27-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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Very nice ideas all. Thx very much!
While experimenting with some of your ideas over a major 251, I found that I also like playing the melodic minor a m3 up from the ii chord and playing it over both the ii and the V chords. I also like mixing it with the Dorian sound (b7).
So over Dm7 G7 the notes are: F G Ab Bb C D (Eb) E F.
Also of note... I like keeping it going over the I chord. The Eb and E combination is nice and bluesy and I like the Ab/G# which gives a #5 sound over the major chord. Even the Bb works for me.....kind if like a delayed resolution type of thing.
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Hi Amund,
Pardon me if I'm not getting something here.
You wrote:
"C lydian augmented : C,D,E,F#,G#,A,B
A minor 6th penta from the root of C : C,D,E,F#,G"
As you said, the intervallic structure sounds really nice here, but I don't understand how come there is no A in your A minor 6 pentatonic, and instead you have a G? I would think it would be C, D, E, F#, A? Thx for any info.
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I like the sound of the chords AbMajor7#5 to Aminor.
The chords are: AbMajor7#5 to Amin
I'm using notes from the following Melodic Minor Modes:
"Ab" Melodic minor mode 3 for the Abmajor7#5 (F Melodic Minor is the parent scale)
"A" Melodic minor for the Amin
Many thanks
Guy
Last edited by GuyBoden; 07-30-2013 at 06:18 AM.
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Shoot! I goofed up that one. Yes, of course it is supposed to have an A instead of a G. Thanks for noticing, I'm going to fix it Originally Posted by srlank
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Wrote these out for reference if anyone is interested....
Personally I'm not a huge fan of starring at long lists.... but sometimes it helps to reveal certain things.
I'll try and record some quick examples of each tonite or tomorrow morning.
Common uses of MM over Dominant to generate altered tones as far as I know are....
Whole Step Below
Half Step Above
Fourth Above
Fifth Above
Viewing all the above from the second mode yields.....
E7 = DMM (Whole Step Below approach)
E Dorian b9 blues w/E7 tensions = b5, b9, #9
E F G A Bb B C# D
E7 = FMM (Half Step above approach)
G Dorian b9 blues w/E7 tensions = b5,#5, b9, #9
G Ab (G#) Bb C Db (C#) D E F
E7 = AMM (Fourth Above approach)
B Dorian b9 blues w/E7 tensions = b13, b9
B C D E F F# G# A
E7 = BMM (Fifth Above)
C# Dorian b9 blues w/E7 tensions = #9, #11
C# D E F# G G# Bb B
An easy to remember these 4 in relation to the chord they could be used over is all four roots together spell out Emin6.....(E7, think Emin6 for roots... and you have a entry points so to speak....
also perfectly sets up a superimposed ii V7 i in the parent scale (if you have the time to do it).....
Emin7-A9-Dminmaj7 (Whole Below)
Gmin7-C9-Fminmaj7 (Half Above)
Bmin7-E9-Aminmaj7 (Fourth Above)
C#min7-F#9-Bminmaj7 (Fifth Above)
Hope I didn't make any typos....Last edited by djangoles; 07-01-2013 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Formating Disaster
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Knowing the related MM parent scale or each MM Mode individually, creates the same result. I personally spent many years playing each MM mode, but John Stowell relates all the MM modes to the parent scale and he's a astonishingly good MM player. Originally Posted by djangoles
For your Dominants, each MM modes is:
E7 = E MM Mode 2 (Dorian b2)
E7 = E MM Mode 7 (Altered Scale)
E7 = E MM Mode 4 (Lydian Dominant)
E7 = E MM Mode 5 (Mixolydian b6)
After a while, the fretboard becomes one big Melodic Minor scale whatever method is used.
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Yea... It's all the same at the end of the day...
Like I said in a previous reply I'm looking to simplify and get the most mileage out it what I can do in real time with access to all the sounds available.......for me personally the sounds really opened up with out having to over think it once I started looking at it from the 2nd.
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So there are lots of approaches towards improve.... one being somewhat like djangoles mentioned above...
Use what you have, whatever that approach(s)... is, are, and embellished with the sounds from using different MM access methods.
So your previous or existing approach is what holds or organizes what your playing. The use of different notes, MM's, chromatics etc... are coloring or embellishing your pre-existing approach or whatever your using to organize your improve.
Can be your ears, internal, no thinking... whatever, but the addition of MM note collections don't really need any organization... just an access point. Can be totally mechanical at first and your ears will develop and eventually the "use" becomes natural, at least somewhat.
Or you can use applications of MM approaches as the organizational concept... and combine with your pre-existing approaches....
Anyway you begin to have a few organizational concepts going on simultaneously... many more access points for getting your MM ears developed,(for good or bad), and incorporating MM into your playing with different applications.
I'll try and make some kind of Video... with examples.
Reg
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Sorry to keep posting... but I stumbled on this old video of playing through Dolphin Dance... and I used a lot of pentatonic MM applications when soloing... I made the video back when I would play and make playing examples of jazz standards and possible approaches. Usually just on the fly... and somewhat rough which I thought was better for examples... not worked out. The melody adaptions were somewhat sloppy, usually were better on out chorus... Anyway I liked the mechanical patterns and blue note usage...
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Yes I agree, I dig Marks approaches... of course we studied with many of the same teachers when we were young, and I see him on gigs. His book's very straight ahead, and covers old and newer explanations of MM... but the most interesting detail Mark gets into is the interchangeability of chords built from MM. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Think key as compared to Chord... very difficult to hear and understand from a traditional Maj/Min Functional harmony background... but one of the keys to using and understanding MM in Jazz contexts.
That relationship is also one of the essential concepts of being able to play and understand jazz harmonic/ melodic concepts.
Reg
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Thanks Guy... Yea I was reading the standard chart and trying to remember my arrangement and adjust the melody to work with the rhythmic feel. There were a few cool comping ideas I need to remember...
Reg
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As someone only recently working on getting MM sounds into my playing, I found this thread useful and inspiring. Thanks for all the comments and clips.
Djangoles, your comments about the dorian b9 over Alt dominant got me thinking. Until now, I pretty much just thought of three modes from melodic minor being useful, in the order I've learned about them:
-Altered dominant over V chords
-Melodic minor over tonic minor chords
-the 6th mode of melodic minor over half-diminished 7th chords, to get the natural 9th
It didn't really occur to me that the 2nd mode (dorian b9) would be that useful, but I now realize that I've already been playing it in the context you describe. I tend to relate everything back to a tonal center as much as possible. I guess that's how I hear stuff (I use solfege a lot) and definitely how I visualize the fretboard much of the time. So to respond to your comments in the context of a key, I'll say we're in C.
Let's say it's Yardbird Suite, so right away there is F- Bb dominant > C. This change of minor iv-bVII7-I is fairly common in the repertoire. I always think of it as simply chords borrowed from the parallel minor key, and I think some educators call it a "backdoor" dominant. To get the two chords in question, we just need a Bb and an Ab, but the E can remain E natural. This note collection (C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-C) is also = to your Dorian b9 built over the dominant (in this case G). So reading your comments about that particular mode was kind of light bulb moment for me in that sense.
Also, to your mention of Grant Green. I recently transcribed a blues solo of his, and sure enough there is an example. On one F7 dominant chord (its a blues in Bb) his first three pitches were D (quarter note) Ab and Gb (two eight notes). So over a dominant he played the major 13th, the flat 3rd (blue note, sharp 9th, whatever you want to call it) and the flat 9th, the three characteristic notes of the mode. Not exactly "all over this playing", but one example of what you're talking about. Was Grant thinking modes? Who knows? But it sounds good.
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Also to Amund's comments about minor pentatonic 6th scales. I like the idea of having less notes and more gaps, and I have a lot of work to do to get that stuff into my ears and under my fingers.
I also like the idea of arpeggios or melodic structures unique to the melodic minor note collection. One interesting structure I learned about recently is this one: Note-Asc major 2nd-Asc major 3rd-Asc major 3rd-Asc major second
Playing that pattern divides the octave up symmetrically and brings you back to the original note. Playing the structure over a minor ii-V-i in the key of C minor, you can play the structure in parallel like this:
D half-diminished: play off the D for: root-natural 2nd, flat 5th, flat 7th, root
G dominant: play off an F for: flat 7th-root-major third-flat 13th-flat 7th
C tonic minor: play off an A for: major 13th-major 7th-minor 3rd-5th-major 13th
Sorry I can't post aural examples. I'm pretty primitive with recording at this point.
MattLast edited by MattC; 07-03-2013 at 05:38 PM.
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Another good one is this one, explained from the perspective of C melodic minor(can be applied to, and works fantastic in any mode of MM): D,Eb,G,A.
I call that the "phrygian pattern" and it is easy to play when you configure it 2nps and use the first and second fingers on the string you start the pattern on and then the first and third finger on the succeeding string.
This easy and convenient fingering allows you to take this pattern up and down the neck over several octaves. Try it over all the different C melodic minor applications. Works VERY well in Altered, Lydian Dominant and Lydian Augmented situations but it will work in ANY mode because there are no "avoid notes" in MM for any mode. Well, "avoid notes" is a confusing term. Rather, I should say that every note possible in each mode of MM is juicy and sweet so this allows us to craft intervallic patterns largely disregarding note choice while focusing on intervallic chemistry because it WILL WORK as long as the notes adhere to the MM configuration.
I really should record this, but at the moment I don't have good recording equipment where I'm currently at. This explains the lack of video updates on my YouTube channel.
I'm probably going to do a lesson video on MM once I get the studio set up again, which is probably going to be before too long.
In the meantime, the "phrygian pattern" is very easy to learn from text. Try that one out, it's a great one
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Nice one Amund. It's got me thinking about some of those fragments that have patterns per string such as 212121 i.e. 2 notes on the 6th string, 1 note on the 5th string, 2 notes on the 4th string, 1 note on the 3rd string, 2 notes on the 2nd string, 1 note on the 1st string. These, like the one you mentioned work fantastic with hammering where there are 2 notes per string.
Look forward to your melodic minor lesson video.Last edited by srlank; 07-03-2013 at 10:18 AM.
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I hear the backdoor cadence as slipping out of the major harmony for an effect, so to me (C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-C) over Fm Bb7 is either F MM over the whole thing or Bb lydian dominant over the whole thing. But in the end it's all the same notes, right? And the idea of appealing to yet another mode of MM is an interesting idea. Originally Posted by MattC
One thing about Yardbird Suite is that over Fm Bb7 the melody is consistently Bb Ab Eb F G -- that pesky Eb! I actually like making it an Enat, but I guess that is revisionism.
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Originally Posted by MattC
Right since the F- Bb7 backdoor is basically the same sound and not resolving up a fourth (Eb)....the FMM is the standard choice... or the Gmin Dorianb9......or Bb Lydian Dom....etc....the adding of the blue note (from G or Bb) is something I personally wouldn't have thought of as an option other than in passing if I was viewing from the root...but that's me..not too bright
As for Grant Green, I can't think of the specific tune....but I can hear the line in my head... And with example you referenced it's not much of a stretch to imagine that he could or would have continued that line in a F dorian b9/blues flavor.....
Unfortunately I'm going on vacation today so I'm not going to be in the loop for a awhile.
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Originally Posted by djangoles
The basic/simple dominant approach I was taught was.....
If it is a functioning dominant in other words next chord is Circle of Fifths then anything goes all alterations are cool.
If it is a non-functioning dominant then Lydian b7 or Mixolydian would be choice.
FYI:
I was listening to a Kenny Werner video last night and he was talking about scales on II-V-I and when it came to the V he said always the Altered scale. He said today the Altered Scale is considered inside playing and has been since Bebop.
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