Examples of using Melodic Minor Modes

[Meggy]

To simplify things in my head, I think of the Red suggestion as an instance of the green suggestion: I think of Bm7b5 as G9(no root), so playing D MM minor over Bm7b5 is the same suggestion as playing D MM over G dominant.

Interesting! like that, cheers Big Daddy - makes obvious sense looked at that way. So the minor 7 b5 chord kind of has a dominant flavour looked at your way? I must say I've always found it an intriguing chord somehow, it's not actually a dominant chord, but still has a strong feeling of going somewhere. But maybe that's not so strange given the (probably obvious to everyone else! ) relationship you've just pointed out.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

The most common use of a min7b5 is the ii chord in a minor ii-V-i, right?

Bm7b5 E7 Amin

You can think of all sorts of things here; sometimes I'm lazy and just think "A harmonic minor" over both the ii and the V. On the other hand, if the changes aren't too fast, thinking D MM over the ii then shifting up to F MM over the V is not hard to do.

EDIT: And I think the dominant flavor in the Bm7b5 chord comes from the B-F tritone, which is not there in a m7 chord.

[Joe Carlson]

John Stowell has some really great instruction materials on using the MM over various chords.

He has one for truefire and another book for Mel Bay (I think) that has a 3 hour DVD with it.

This video does a great job of opening the door (and its free):
Casa Valdez Studios: John Stowell video lesson- Applying the Melodic Minor Scale

[wizard3739]

Nah...if MM turns people on they should do it if they're able. The MM scale was my key to jazz many decades ago and without it I'd probably have given up because the jazz sound needs that scale in the tool kit.

It's a very valuable skill to be able to play different scales over chords while still emphasizing the chord tones. Those players who stick to the major scales and add compensating notes to accommodate the chord of the moment don't sound very good to me - sorry to say that but that's how I hear them. Playing MM is one way to understand and play vertically, a critical skill IMO.

+1 I agree with this thought, especially "they should do it if they are able". For some people who listen to a lot of horn players from the bebop era, the MM concepts really get them a head start in improvising.

wiz

[P4guitar]

+1 I agree with this thought, especially "they should do it if they are able". For some people who listen to a lot of horn players from the bebop era, the MM concepts really get them a head start in improvising.

wiz

I suggested that because most people starting out are just trying to force fit the major scales, pentatonics, or blues scales over the changes. It sort of works. The problem is if they stop there, their playing also just sort of works...that is if they have a good enough ear to begin with.

IMO, it's critical to bite the bullet and start simple and slow with plain vanilla ii V7 IM changes. One should pre-select a scale for the ii, the V7, and IM chords and learn how to emphasize each chord's guide tones when playing the selected scale. Keep tempos slow till it makes sense and no mental gymnastics are required, then build up the tempo over time. Then when one is familiar using the scales at tempo, start over at the beginning with other scale choices. At the beginning of this thread there were some suggested scales that should keep an interested person busy for some time.

If people practice this they'll quickly graduate from ii V I -> iii VI ii V I -> ....to the vast bulk of the standards. This approach bypasses all the confusing theory that discourages so many people (I couldn't stand the theory myself and discarded it for immediately functional techniques). I believe this gets people playing jazz like the old timers who didn't have (or need) jazz college degrees.

[Nuff Said]

Using the Melodic Minor Modes.

Personally, I find it much easier to find each interval for a chord by using the Melodic Minor mode.


Example:


Playing over a G7 chord, play the chord tones 3rd, 5th, 7th = B D F


G7 = G Lydian Dominant = G A B C# D E F G (Easy)
G7 = D Melodic Minor = D E F G A B C# D (Difficult)

I find this is much, much more difficult using the parent Melodic Minor scale method.

Nuff Said

[exarctly]

If you are not comfortable with the MM scale I think you need to start with the 4th mode and the 7th mode and practice using them over dominant chords. Yes there are other factors like sometimes it is best to do this when it is resolving to a minor key (but not always) and sometimes the alterations that are already meant to be suggested might change your mind.

But I never think that I am playing the 4th and 7th mode of the MM scale. I know that is where it comes from. But I think of them as their own scales. The Lydian Dominant, and the altered/diminished wholetone scale.

Because by doing this you are seeing the root in perspective and you are aware of all the alterations and harmonies you are using.

So if the chord is G7, you can play D MM or Ab MM

but I think it is way easier to think of them as G lydian dominant or G diminished wholetone.

This way you are simply comparing the harmonies to the ones that would normally be used in the mixolydian scale.

Lydian Dominant is great to start with because it is not too exotic and it is really easy to just take all the fingerings of mixolydian scales and simply raise the 4th a half step.

Diminished Wholetone/altered scale is nice to especially if you are already familiar with the half whole diminished scale and the wholetone scale. It makes it easy to understand because you are starting with one concept and taking it to the other. And you can them see how doing that gives you the b9 #9 b5 and #5 of a dominant chord.

My advice. Make sure that you can play them from any string in any direction, and then as always know how to get to the 3rd and 7th, because I think it is much better to play consciously of each harmony you are choosing (or at least he ones that you are resolving too) than just noodling around with a scale. This is why practicing arpeggios is so key. To make sure that one can always outline chord tones, especially when chords are going by quickly. There is not always enough time to play a scale or think of a scale. You simply want to outline the movement in the chords in some cases.

This said, I am now realizing how much can be done with the first and third modes of MM as well. It is a great scale. I also like using it as a way to get extra notes because you can play the scale as is ascending and descending, or do what classical musicians do and un-alter the #6 and #7 of the scale descending, or go back and forth. It gives some cool possibilities and harmonies on simple chords that I used to think were not possible or desirable.

[brwnhornet59]

This said, I am now realizing how much can be done with the first and third modes of MM as well. It is a great scale. I also like using it as a way to get extra notes because you can play the scale as is ascending and descending, or do what classical musicians do and un-alter the #6 and #7 of the scale descending, or go back and forth. It gives some cool possibilities and harmonies on simple chords that I used to think were not possible or desirable.

Exactly Exarctly

I like using Myxolydian b6 as well

Also try this one. Over, say.. D7b9, play D# Mixolydian #1, then segue into D Dorian b2. Finish it off with D W/H.

I like finding short runs in each, ascending on one, descending on the other, then maybe play the W/H in 3rds.
It is an interesting way of mixing MM, HM and W/H.

[whatswisdom]

Because by doing this you are seeing the root in perspective and you are aware of all the alterations and harmonies you are using.

Great post! So helpful. I think another easy way to get used to the sounds of MM is to play around with each mode over a one-note pedal. C MM over C pedal. F lydian-dom over F pedal; B alt over B pedal, etc. I just got an electronic 88-note chromatic pitch-pipe/metronome and am going to put it work over the weekend. I'm trying to save up for BIAB.

[Double 07]

But I never think that I am playing the 4th and 7th mode of the MM scale. I know that is where it comes from. But I think of them as their own scales. The Lydian Dominant, and the altered/diminished wholetone scale.

Because by doing this you are seeing the root in perspective and you are aware of all the alterations and harmonies you are using.

So if the chord is G7, you can play D MM or Ab MM

but I think it is way easier to think of them as G lydian dominant or G diminished wholetone.

This way you are simply comparing the harmonies to the ones that would normally be used in the mixolydian scale.

Lydian Dominant is great to start with because it is not too exotic and it is really easy to just take all the fingerings of mixolydian scales and simply raise the 4th a half step.

Diminished Wholetone/altered scale is nice to especially if you are already familiar with the half whole diminished scale and the wholetone scale. It makes it easy to understand because you are starting with one concept and taking it to the other. And you can them see how doing that gives you the b9 #9 b5 and #5 of a dominant chord.

My advice. Make sure that you can play them from any string in any direction, and then as always know how to get to the 3rd and 7th, because I think it is much better to play consciously of each harmony you are choosing (or at least he ones that you are resolving too) than just noodling around with a scale. This is why practicing arpeggios is so key. To make sure that one can always outline chord tones, especially when chords are going by quickly. There is not always enough time to play a scale or think of a scale. You simply want to outline the movement in the chords in some cases.

This said, I am now realizing how much can be done with the first and third modes of MM as well. It is a great scale. I also like using it as a way to get extra notes because you can play the scale as is ascending and descending, or do what classical musicians do and un-alter the #6 and #7 of the scale descending, or go back and forth. It gives some cool possibilities and harmonies on simple chords that I used to think were not possible or desirable.

Great post!!!!

Right I'm never thinking 4th mode of MM while I'm in improv mode during a tune, that's not really helpful. Thinking of which mode of MM is sometimes helpful to think about when composing but not during your improvisation, but I take it even one step further. Meaning I leave out the names of the MM modes all together. For one reason, besides Lydian Dominant, there are no universally agreed upon names for all of the modes of MM. Secondly I think using the names tends to mask what's really going on. Instead, just thinking of MM with the root up a 5th from G7 gives me a G7 scale with a b5th or playing MM with the root up 1/2 step from G7 gives me a G7 scale with a b5 #5 b9 and #9 is a more illuminating way to think. All of that information can be directly applied to my playing. Add to that all of the important chord tones and I have a flavorful pallet of tones and intervallic ideas to play with.

Just saying I really think the MM mode names names can be misleading, don't provide much if any information that's musically useful, and may tend to obscure what's really going on harmonically that's all. For instance the up a 1/2 step MM application is sometimes called Diminished Wholetone but the up a 5th MM application has just as many interesting relationships to diminished tonality if you really think about it.

[whatswisdom]

Instead just thinking of MM with the root up a 5th from G7 gives me a G7 scale with a b5th or playing MM with the root up 1/2 step from G7 gives me a G7 scale with a b5 #5 b9 and #9 is a more illuminating way to think.

Your example is from which key? Could you explain this some more? I'm not quite with you here. Thanks.

[exarctly]

Another thing worthy of mention
The way I was originally taught ot play MM scales was to take all my Major scale fingerings and simply flat the 3rds. So I knew G major up and down the fretboard really well at the time so I just took every B note in those fingerings and learned how to take them down a half step, and then moved them to other keys when necessary.
This helped me learn the shapes quite well, and I still use a lot of these shapes especially, though to get that seventh MM mode/altered scale/diminished wholetone thing I did relearn to start them from the 7th.
However, the danger to this approach is to make sure you do not fall into the idea of thinking of them as major scaled with an alteration, but still see all the intervals as how they relate to a minor key.
I had a prof who used to be critcal of my playing on minor chord progressions because it sounded like I was playing the same stuff I played in a major key. This is because all I used to do back then was think of Em and G major as the same thing, because the notes were the same, and I just thought my ear would choose the right notes. But now I know that it is important to make sure you are conscious of what the right notes are and make sure to emphasize otes like the 3rd and the 9th on minor chords...and maybe the #7 id you want to sound even more minor.
And on the dominant chords preceding them tones like the 3rd and #5 and b9 help bring that minor tonality.

[brwnhornet59]

I also make a habit of not only practicing the scale fully extended up and down the neck in all positions and fingerings, I like to practice it on one note, then know those positions all up and down. Then change key and repeat.

Ie..

C MM
C dorian b2
C lydian #5 etc....

This has helped me dramatically in knowing where each is and really helps when I use my shorthand to play over clusters when improvising.

It also makes it very easy to use it to identify altered chords very quickly. But it is a lot of work. Worth it if you put the time in. IMHO

[Double 07]

Your example is from which key? Could you explain this some more? I'm not quite with you here. Thanks.

C major or minor. Was talking about D MM or Ab MM over the V chord. Get it?

[whatswisdom]

C major or minor. Was talking about D MM or Ab MM over the V chord. Get it?

Let me know if this is right. I see the first clearly. Second one not quite so ...

Chord: GBDF
Scale: DEFGABC#

Chord: GBDF
Scale: AbBbCbDbEbFG

[exarctly]

exactly! ....though I still recommend spelling the scales from the G in each example to compare each note more easily to the root.
And while Cb is the technically correct spelling here, I think you are better of to call it B natural (even though a scale technically should not have a Bb and a B natural) because this is the third of the G7 chord and Bb is seen as the #9.
But see what works well with you and then try some other possibilities.

[Double 07]

Another thing worthy of mention
The way I was originally taught ot play MM scales was to take all my Major scale fingerings and simply flat the 3rds. So I knew G major up and down the fretboard really well at the time so I just took every B note in those fingerings and learned how to take them down a half step, and then moved them to other keys when necessary.
This helped me learn the shapes quite well, and I still use a lot of these shapes especially, though to get that seventh MM mode/altered scale/diminished wholetone thing I did relearn to start them from the 7th.
However, the danger to this approach is to make sure you do not fall into the idea of thinking of them as major scaled with an alteration, but still see all the intervals as how they relate to a minor key.
I had a prof who used to be critcal of my playing on minor chord progressions because it sounded like I was playing the same stuff I played in a major key. This is because all I used to do back then was think of Em and G major as the same thing, because the notes were the same, and I just thought my ear would choose the right notes. But now I know that it is important to make sure you are conscious of what the right notes are and make sure to emphasize otes like the 3rd and the 9th on minor chords...and maybe the #7 id you want to sound even more minor.
And on the dominant chords preceding them tones like the 3rd and #5 and b9 help bring that minor tonality.

Yes I see what you're saying.I think it's better to think of the altered scale in relation to Mixolydian rather than the Major Scale. Even though it's more to have to think about in terms of the ALT tones etc, that way if you flip back to unaltered harmony you'll most likely play something that sounds like a dominant chord rather than major. I agree, you're not on the tonic chord at that point so why have tonic intervals in mind?

[Nuff Said]

From John Stowell's Melodic Minor Video.

1.) Melodic Minor over m7 chords.

2.) Dorian b2 over m7 chords.

3.) Phrygian b1 over Major chords.

4.) Aeolian b5 over m7b5 chords.

Tensions
5.) Locrian b4 over Dominant chords.

6.) Dorian b2 over Dominant chords.

7.) Mixolydian b6 over Dominant chords.

8.) Lydian b7 over Dominant chords.

[Reg]

I think Matt's examples are great, the standard names in reference to Maj. scales degrees. Used for a log time. In Jazz almost all theory makes reference to Maj.
Eventually you don't go through the mental process of relating to degrees of the major scale... the note collection becomes an collection in it's self.

If you think about it... it's silly to actually use the names...
Ionian b3
Phrygian b1 etc...
Their very misleading, but they are simply a means to an end... learning MM.
Using Dorian b2 as sub for Locrian on altered II V's is standard practice. Locrian with nat 9 is much more descriptive of standard use. Actually using 2,4 and 6 in place of 9,11 and 13 is little weird...but, yea a means to an end,

John's application of using MM note collection is also great method of learning MM, again the names are means to an end.

The next step might be simply making reference to MM influence on progression or melodic material... which is typically how MM is used in Jazz. Any degree or mode of MM is available once you realize the door is always open...it's not some special color or secret application... MM is part of the Jazz language... Reg

[jster]

I think Matt's examples are great, the standard names in reference to Maj. scales degrees. Used for a log time. In Jazz almost all theory makes reference to Maj.
Eventually you don't go through the mental process of relating to degrees of the major scale... the note collection becomes an collection in it's self.

If you think about it... it's silly to actually use the names...
Ionian b3
Phrygian b1 etc...
Their very misleading, but they are simply a means to an end... learning MM.
Using Dorian b2 as sub for Locrian on altered II V's is standard practice. Locrian with nat 9 is much more descriptive of standard use. Actually using 2,4 and 6 in place of 9,11 and 13 is little weird...but, yea a means to an end,

John's application of using MM note collection is also great method of learning MM, again the names are means to an end.

The next step might be simply making reference to MM influence on progression or melodic material... which is typically how MM is used in Jazz. Any degree or mode of MM is available once you realize the door is always open...it's not some special color or secret application... MM is part of the Jazz language... Reg

Since you brought up this naming issue Reg, can you say what you think the best names are from a use point of view? I kept coming up against the naming issue this week as I had three names bouncing around for the fifth mode, melodic dominant being one of them. Also if you have any views on use derived names for the harmonic minor modes that would be great. A use approach seems better than Matt's system, but now that I think about it, one good thing about Matt's system is that you know immediately which one he is referring to; once you hear the Greek word plus some modification, then you know which mode it is. Dorian something will just be the second mode of MM. Of course Matt's system might be lead to confusion if you extend it to harmonic minor. Then you would have three different kinds of Dorian, two with numbers. Ugh. Maybe just the usual names for the major modes, melodic dorian, etc for the MM modes, and then harmonic dorian, etc for the harmonic ones would be the best system. No confusion. So anyway, what are the best names from a strictly use point of view? Can you list the ones you like the best?

[Reg]

Hey Jster...That's one of the usual difficulties of using one system of organization to define and explain a different system... Talking about women using men terminology... then throw in a little kid terminology... just to make sure you break up any system. Using Euro. Classical terminology to explain jazz...

I simply refer to scale degree of implied note collection. Example, 4th degree of MM. I don't worry about altering existing terms.

I think of influence of MM on existing melodic and harmonic material the majority of the time. Not always... just like I think of modal music influence or blue notes.

I am talking about Jazz remember...I'm not trying to make everything fit into simple existing boxes. But teachers need something.

The descriptive terms are really just a means to get to the point of knowing the pitch organization...right. They don't really imply functional and theoretical use.
The system of relating Har. Min. to Nat. Min. and Har. Maj. works well enough.... At least Minor compared to Minor and Maj. to Maj. But comparing Mel. Min to Maj. gets a little silly. But again...just a system... who cares.

Typically in jazz... MM has different functional style type of use. We use a few of the the chordal structures as standard vocabulary...
Min. maj 7, the Chord built on the 1st degree
The 4th degree chord or dom.7 with #11, which is used typically with Dom. function as compared to typical sub-dom function of 4th degree.
And of course we call the 7th degree a Dom7 alt. chord. And sometimes the 6th degree, etc...

That gives you a clue that MM is used differently... right away. And of course we almost use MM in a modal style... all the notes are available, melodically or harmonically... either tritone etc... Using MM in pure modal style is a little weird... Not wrong or right...But using in a functional harmonic style is also a little weird.

So I don't know what are the best names... because I don't use or hear in existing name style. I use scale degrees and don't go through the altering thought process.

When I was learning the scale etc... the 6o's... I started with chord tones and a few of the typical chords from MM. Like blue notes and chords deriving from use of blue notes...
The terminology has been around for a while, I think Matt is simply using the terms as teaching tools. But I may be wrong and am not trying to offend in any manor...
Anyway... best I can offer. I'm off the main land and am just winging it from the top of my head... plenty of room for error...Reg

[brwnhornet59]

The descriptive terms are really just a means to get to the point of knowing the pitch organization...right. They don't really imply functional and theoretical use.

The terminology has been around for a while, I think Matt is simply using the terms as teaching tools.

Yes, that is the gist of it.

BTW, Matt did not make up these names. He borrowed them from Gary Keller.

[Beatles4vr]

Thanks, I haven't watched that video for a long time, Emily Remler was a fantastic player, with a beautiful tone, I have some of her cds, I also have the videos, she uses the Altered mode on resolving Dominant chords and the Lydian dominant on non-resolving Dominant chords. She also names them by the parent melodic minor scale, which I personally feel makes it more complex. She has some great lines, I wish I could play like that.

Thanks again
Nuff

What a great thread. Re: Emily Remler, what a tragic loss...I think she was just hitting her stride.

Now, with regard to the MM scale: I read 'Secrets of the MM Scale Revealed' by Don Mock. To GREATLY simplify, he reduced the MM scale use to 4 modes over different alterations (for G7 alt):

1. 4th mode: G7 b5

2. 7th mode: Super Locrian, all alterations

3. 2nd mode: G7 b9 or #9

4. 1st mode: G7#5

And I have added:

5. 6th mode: over ii m7 b5 (ii on minor 2-5-1s)
6. 4th mode: over non-functioning V7 chords (not resolving to the I chord)

So this is how I have been practicing it. What do you think?

[Nuff Said]

4. 1st mode: G7#5

Your use of the 1st MM Mode is an interesting choice:

G Melodic Minor 1st Mode = G A Bb C D E F# G
G7#5 Chord Tones = G B D# F

How does it sound to your ears?

Try using the 5th MM Mode over G7#5, see if you like the sound.
Nuff

[brwnhornet59]

Your use of the 1st MM Mode is an interesting choice:

G Melodic Minor 1st Mode = G A Bb C D E F# G
G7#5 Chord Tones = G B D# F

How does it sound to your ears?

Try using the 5th MM Mode over G7#5, see if you like the sound.
Nuff

Agreed. I got the feeling he meant using CMM against G9b13..