-
Hey guys, I have been playing for many years. Basically my influences have been mostly out of straight ahead jazz and bebop. Lately I have been listening to guys like Kurt Rosenwinkle, Wolfgang Muthspiel, and especially Ben Monder.
It seems to me that these guys are coming from a different place musically that what I am used to hearing from the Wes/ Joe Pass/ Jimmy Raney school.
What are some resources out there that I can use to get more modern phrasing into my improv? What are some of the techniques these guys use?
-
10-26-2011 01:24 PM
-
Listen to them a lot and transcribe them a lot, and figure out ways to assimilate what they are doing into your vocabulary.
Guys like Monder and Kurt are quite educated and do use a wide variety of techniques, some of which are all the rage at music schools.
I think transcription is the first step. There is a lot of stuff to talk about, for sure, but transcription then assimilation is essential, otherwise you're just dealing with the math of it.
Monder does a great many number of things, I haven't even touched his material, and I'm sure somebody has written some college thesis about his work. A discussion of his harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic content, and where it comes from, could easily fill a book.
I think to look at those guys it makes sense to look at everything that has come after the more traditional guys you mentioned...so much evolution with pentatonics, hexatonics, different time signatures, implying different meters, the harmony of harmonic minor and harmonic major scales, augmented scales, etc.
Good luck...I haven't even started transcribing those kind of players, just because it hasn't been a priority...but I think these guys often try to come up with their own personal concepts and approaches...so often I try to work on my own personal concepts in hopes that it will result in something well, personal/
-
Also, there is a Kurt Rosenwinkel forum.
-
I think one of the biggest thing is these guys are thinking scales while in the shed, not chord tones and arpeggios.
Which means they float on the harmony a bit more than nailing every change...they're still playing changes, but it's not like a bebop solo where if you stripped the rest of the band away you still could rather easily figure out the chord changes.
-
Yeah I guess it is just kind of humbling. You think you are a good player and then all the sudden you realize that harmonically you pretty much stopped in 1959. LOL.
-
I'm right there with you.
It's funny, because I've reached this impasse...I'm so comfortable in my "old way," but the stuff I'm writing demands I think in the "new way." Oh well....he who fails to roll with the changes plays in bar bands, or something like that.
-
LOL, I am right there with you Jeff. I am comfortable with the "old" guitar player concepts and approach but I am trying a lot of new stuff now. I am seriously studying ("three note Voicings) by Randy Vincent and trying to modernize our gig approach to include more Funk and Soul (Earth, Wind and Fire) as well as some originals that are kind of "far out". I need to look at Ben Monder and others in that arena for transcription learning.
wiz
-
+1 on Wolfie! If you don't have it yet, get the (relatively new) Wolfie and Mick Goodrick "live" recording -- incredible stuff!
-
You are a brave soul. A tip of the hat to you.
Originally Posted by wizard3739
I don't know why, but I used to dismiss this type of playing. I didn't listen to any of it for several years, and then one of my students asked me something about a lick that Kurt Rosenwinkle played on a tune I think it was called Filters? Well quite frankly I was stumped. I think I said something like, "Yeah wow that's really nice... Let me show you some new bebop licks! Now what Tal Farlow would do is..."
-
I'm up to 1969!!! Originally Posted by jmstritt
I try some of the modern stuff. I dig it, Kurt and Mike Moreno, but I LOVE 60's jazz the best. Chords, voicings, and scales hit their apex there, IMHO.
-
Just don't practice anything for the next ten years while I try to catch up ;-) Originally Posted by JonnyPac
I'm up to 1969!!!
-
LOL, I'm not really brave at all but I am, no doubt, blissfully ignorant of the "newer" jazz sounds. Originally Posted by jmstritt
wiz
-
Tom Lippencott has a 5 part series on 'Modern Jazz Guitar':
Mike's Master Classes - Tom Lippincott
He's a good teacher and his classes are really thorough. A lot of good pdf material as well.
-
I would simply say newer guitar sounds... I would think if you were going to cover modern jazz... you would first be able to cover non-modern jazz... listen to Rosenwinkle, Kuthsoiel or Monder... they all have a ways to go. Listen to Martijn van Iterson, ( king of minor) and Jesse van Ruller, (euro groovester)... There closer but still closer to 60's and early 70's, simply straighter... Like I said if your going to call what you play modern jazz... you had better be able to cover older jazz...
How many Wes, Farlow, Benson, Burrell, Pass, Kessel, Upchurch, or even Lagrene, McLanghlin transcriptions or styles can you cover... transcribe some of the sax or brass heads and solos from the 60's...
I have too many gigs through Sun... but I'll try and post video and talk about what's going on rhythmically as well as harmonically... with a few of the younger players... it's not that difficult, especially if you can cover Pass.
If you have good technique... it's real easy... almost mechanical. Plug and play. RegLast edited by Reg; 10-26-2011 at 06:57 PM.
-
Martijn van Iterson is my contemporary fav. Best of the old and new in one guitarist.
-
Thanks for the detailed reply. My question is like you said about note selection, and concepts. I'd really look forward to seeing you break down some of that! Originally Posted by Reg
-
I've recently started transcribing some Lage Lund, as well as some Kreisberg and some Peter Bernstein (definitely my favorite).
I can tell you a few things about what they're doing that I've noticed.
The biggest thing that they are doing is switching up the swinging rhythm. If you notice most of their pieces contain no swing and the drummer is doing a lot of subdivisions, but keeping it mostly straight. There is also the odd time signatures many are starting to use, great example of this is Kreisberg. Also in the single line soloing, they syncopate harder than in bop. An example of this is Lage Lund playing All The Things You Are (Small Club Big City album), when he starts his solo, he's playing scale after scale after scale. Harmonically, his solo is so simple. However, what does make you step back and think for like 20 minutes is the rhythms he's placing his lines in.
Harmonically, these guys tend to use more "open" voicings. Peter Bernstein does a lot of these chords, especially in his solo playing, he plays a chord that covers every sonic range. The chords are heavy in bass, middle register and high register. Others also tend to use very thin voicings, such as Ben Monder, who plays a lot of chords up in the top 4 strings.
A lot of the modern jazz music is also based on vamps. Listen to Kreisberg, a lot of his stuff is vamps, like South Of Everywhere and Twenty One. The music also demands very specific chord voicings rather than improvising your own chords.
The most I could tell you is to transcribe, and talk to these guys. If you go to one of their gigs, just walk up to them after they're done playing. Usually they don't have trouble talking to a member of the audience, and definitely don't have any trouble answering questions. I've had the chance to talk to Jonathan Kreisberg a few times after seeing him at some of his gigs, also Mark Ferber. If you have the money, a lesson with one of these guys can never do wrong. I have a friend who took a lesson with Kreisberg and he told me he got stuff to practice for years haha. He also takes regular lessons with Lippincott and says he's also a really great player and a great teacher.
-
"A ways to go" how? I consider Rosenwinkel and Monder to be two of the most complete, established guitarists in the world right now, at least that I know of. Originally Posted by Reg
I agree that familiarity with older styles is important before attempting to do some of the more adventurous modern stuff, but we have to draw a line somewhere man...you could spend your whole life transcribing everything that Wes and Pass did, at some point you have to move on. When that point is, I don't know, but it has to occur at some point and it's probably up to the judgement of that individual.How many Wes, Farlow, Benson, Burrell, Pass, Kessel, Upchurch, or even Lagrene, McLanghlin transcriptions or styles can you cover... transcribe some of the sax or brass heads and solos from the 60's...
-
A few years ago I heard a friend make a good point that the modern vocabulary isn't necessarily harder or more advanced, it's just different. It's a different language with different devices.
Here's an example. I think of a slightly more modern device to be, in 4/4 time, playing phrases built off of 7/8 or 5/8 rhythms. To work on that takes a while, takes some thinking, practicing, and a lot of familiarity with the material involved.
I think of a more traditional challenge to be playing all 8th note lines at a fast tempo with chord tones always coming on the chord change and preceded by a whole step or half step. That's pretty hard to get the hang of as well for somebody who hasn't done it before.
You could think of a lot of examples like that.
My point is that I don't think one is better or more advanced...I don't look down on a player for being more traditional. Having a thorough grasp on "straight ahead," especially the voice leading chordal stuff, is really impressive to me. Having control of the more modern harmonic and rhythmic environments is also amazing. Another great guy is Nelson Veras.
-
Actually I own four parts of the series and it's great, loads of material meticulously arranged. A lot of work must have gone into this series - if you are interested in the "new guys", liken Monder, Rosenwinkel, Lund, Rogers, Stowell - go for it. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
-
Those guys aren't coming from a different place. They are coming out of Joe Pass Wes Montgomery and Jim Hall etc etc.
It's just the next step forward in some ways, new influences on the instrument, the music in general. The influence of how the music is taught now. You ask any major current guitarist who they are most influenced by on their instrument they'll almost all say the same 4 or 5 guys. All of the jazz guitarists today that are worth much of anything all know tunes, play changes and can get a great straight ahead clean sound. It's a change in the aesthetic of the music, a change in how it feels rhythmically and phrasing wise but these guys all have studied straight ahead stuff, and are moving away from it intentionally much like how bebop players move away from swing.
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes people accept it and sometimes people don't. Of all the modern/current cats I have to say I like Van Ruller the most mostly because he seems to keep the rhythmic importance of Swing and bridges that with his melodic and harmonic material more to my liking. Rosenwinkel is great, I'm not a big fan of a lot of other guys but certainly think some of them are really happening. All fantastic players that I really enjoy for sure. Van ruller right now to me has something really hip going on (and has for the last 10 years+)Last edited by Jake Hanlon; 10-27-2011 at 06:48 AM.
-
Hmmm ... and I'm still trying to sound like Howard Roberts!
-
+1 on this. With the internet, you can live in Paris and take lessons in New York! Originally Posted by jtizzle
A lot of cats are doing this: Moreno, Kreisberg, Pete Mazza, Chris Crocco, Adam Rogers, etc. It's a great time for learning.
-
A question on the Lippencott stuff, what format are the lessons in? Is it a DVD, Podcast, Skype? Also it seems like the first lesson is more or less a review of classic jazz guitarists, stuff that I feel like I already have a pretty good handle on, would it be ok to just skip to the second one?
-
I don't own this specific title, but I can tell you that the TrueFire stuff is pretty much top rate. I have the comping lesson from Fareed Haque. Of course the content itself is great, but the presentation is what really surprised me - it comes on a computer DVD that you pop in your PC (or Apple or linux box or whatever) and has a whole presentation format that makes it easy to get to the exact sub-lesson you want to see. You just click around the screen to get to where you want to be.
++++ EDIT ++++
Uh, I'm an idiot. The link to Tom Lippincott isn't truefire. It's MMC. So forget what I said.Last edited by FatJeff; 10-27-2011 at 10:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Today, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions