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I was thinking of Jesse Van Ruller and Kurt.
Originally Posted by Tbirdjazzguitar
It really is a game changer. Once you take those elements out of the melody and the rhythm.
I think it's a cultural thing.....partly.
Some of these guys went to college and studied Jazz.
It's not quite so "street"....so to speak. Some scholarly calculation in the mix.
We don't exactly have a popular culture bursting with beautiful new standards to draw from.
There's also not quite so much emphasis on the soloist really stepping out.........trying to prove something or trying to be noticed.
It's more about the ensemble.
Perhaps the competitive edge is rounded off a little. No more "fastest gun" mentality...........which I think is born of trying to drive a career forward in a harsh economic climate.
Don't know if I've quite put my finger on it (so to speak).
But the times, they are a' changing.
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11-03-2011 10:27 PM
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Hi David, Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Is this the book with Tim Miller?
Marc
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Yes the book is co-authored by both. The concepts are very much Mick's in Mick's style: exhaustive, exhausting and radically beautiful. Tim was essential in making many other aspects of the project possible including a CD where he plays examples (What? A Goodrick book with audio examples?!) and demonstrates these ideas over the form of a well known (and copyrighted) standard so you can hear them in an actual playing context. Originally Posted by marcwhy
One of the obstacles with the voice leading books in the past was using the material in a conventional playing situation... "yeah, it's beautiful but how do I use this when I'm playing Stella..." for example. That's not a problem this time around. Which reminds me of why I started that other thread...
Coming soon to a local bookseller near you!
David
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Awesome, thanks! Tim has it "Coming Soon!" on his website, so I've been drooling for a while. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Now if Mick could just publish his "Falling Grace" variations he told us about ....
M
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The streets are the downtown village streets of New York. It's a strange thing but I listened to a lot of bebop in my day but I remember returning to the city after a long time away, I approached the Lincoln tunnel from New Jersey, I saw the skyline and on WKCR was Charlie Parker. Suddenly the music made TOTAL sense, it was as NY as the skyline. Originally Posted by Philco
I feel the same thing about the new modern jazz. Yes these guys come from school backgrounds, a lot of them anyway, but they also spend a lot of time AFTER school deconstructing the things they were taught that they don't need.
The 55 bar, The Bar Next Door, Smalls... that's where the schooling takes place now. These are new streets, it's the 21st century and if Charlie Parker were alive today, he'd be sharing the floor with David Binney, I'm sure.
The language of rock is not what it was in the 50's, jazz is what the streets flow with today: a smart angular and profoundly simple and complex negotiation of the same 12 notes searching for a new expression. And the gut bucket feel I get from the blues? I get it in a beautiful diatonic line headed for a tonic, but there's history and a lot of harmony keeping it company now. I wouldn't have it any other way.
David
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I would argue that Rock and pop are dead. Or at least spinning on their respective backs on a window ledge somewhere making a buzzing sound.
Thanks heavens for Jazz. It leads the way once again.
Good things happening in Europe as well as New York.
Many creative hands on the wheel.
This could be the era when youth become so disenchanted with Rock/Pop/Dance that they look for truth, dignity and relevance elsewhere.
I think it's already happening.
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This is the type of thing that I would usually disagree with, but I actually see your point. I mean what else is out there right now? Pop is complete processed bubblegum, rock is non existent (Unless you consider Nickleback to be rock), meanwhile there are guys out there like RObert Glasper, Rosenwinkle, etc. Originally Posted by Philco
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This is why so many people hate jazz. There is so much "bad jazz" out there, as much as there is plastic pop probably. Who wants to hear "ATTYA" for the trillionth time from an average-talented jazz band and yet there are thousands of bands playing it, not only on sessions- which would be OK, but on concerts. Originally Posted by Philco
There is good pop and rock music out there, it just doesn't get any airplay - jazz snobism is something I've always hated.
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I like hearing new versions of ATTYA.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
+1
;-)
The fact of the matter is that playing standards is part of our musical heritage. If you are playing ATTYA, you are taking part in a musical dialouge that is almost 100 years old yet still evolving.
On the topic of jazz snobbery or elitism...
Most jazz musicians I know are more than willing to help a new player learn the style. If one of my students wants help with something jazz related, it overjoys me! Where the snobbery comes into play 99% of the time is with young players that know a little jazz and try to pass themselves off as the next Coltrane. Then you will usually hear one of the old guys say, "You can't even make the changes! Why don't you cool it with the attitude?" The reason that I bring this up is to say if you put out cheese don't complain about rats. If you run your mouth about how jazz players are snobs, then be ready to get jazz people that are snobs. If you say, "I am working on such and such, what is the best way to ____" Then you will find people that are genuinely willing to help you learn and grow.
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Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
What is it about his tone you don't like? I hadn't heard of him so I looked him up in iTunes. His tone reminds me of Pat Martino.
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I think you just answered your own question! ;-) Originally Posted by Greg Brouelette
LOL
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[QUOTE=jmstritt;179680]+1
;-)
The fact of the matter is that playing standards is part of our musical heritage. If you are playing ATTYA, you are taking part in a musical dialouge that is almost 100 years old yet still evolving.
On the topic of jazz snobbery or elitism...
Most jazz musicians I know are more than willing to help a new player learn the style. If one of my students wants help with something jazz related, it overjoys me! Where the snobbery comes into play 99% of the time is with young players that know a little jazz and try to pass themselves off as the next Coltrane. Then you will usually hear one of the old guys say, "You can't even make the changes! Why don't you cool it with the attitude?" The reason that I bring this up is to say if you put out cheese don't complain about rats. If you run your mouth about how jazz players are snobs, then be ready to get jazz people that are snobs. If you say, "I am working on such and such, what is the best way to ____" Then you will find people that are genuinely willing to help you learn and grow./QUOTE]
The emphasis is on "new" versions of ATTYA, but as you say, many can't even make the changes - don't get me wrong, I love jazz and I love modern jazz players, but I also think that there are not many real new guitarists out there that have had an impact on jazz as Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell and John Scofield - and these guys are the old guys nowadays. Nobody of the "not-so-young" guitarists (Monder, Rosenwinkel, Cardenas, Muthspiel, Kreisberg) has "grabbed" me like those big 3 did way back then. I love them all, especially Rosenwinkel and Muthspiel whose careeers I've been following since the beginning but it's all not that "new".
Metheny IMHO is probably the most influential and important player and especially composer of jazz around - time will tell. I admire people that can blow over changes but I really love guys who also write their own tunes.Playing standards is a lot of fun but I always prefer musicians playing their own tunes OR making standards or other material really their own.
That's also the reason why I love some European guitarists, especially Eivind Aarset and Stian Westerhus - maybe both not "real" jazz guitarists in the sense of knowing bebop, but they have their own thing and took the "tradition" of Frisell, Torn and Rypdal to the next level - while creating something new...
Just my 0.02 €
And I love playing standards, too
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You might like Julian Lage or Tim Miller's recordings - they both write and improvise over tunes that are very much not standards, yet I think unique and doing a good job of carrying a torch...Julian Lage is really frikking young, 23 I think. Tim is probably around the same age as Kurt, give or take a few, but he hasn't been in the limelight as long. Originally Posted by Gearhead
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Yeah, I forgot to mention Julian Lage - I think he might be one who has the potential and vision to create something similar to the "big guys". Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I "discovered" Tim Miller only recently but am looking forward to hearing more from him and to look at his book with Mick Goodrick.
Thanks
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something I like about both those guys is that they are incredibly lyrical when playing over standards, but their compositions seem to have a pretty obvious, um, compositional focus, rather than just being vehicles for blowing.
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We share similar views. Originally Posted by Gearhead
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As a rock and a dance music fan, no, they're not dead. They're swamped under the horror that is processed music, but under there is a very strong scene. Dance bands like Daft Punk, Justice, and the like are all putting out quality stuff. Originally Posted by Philco
As for rock, well, there's a lot of alternative rock out there - Radiohead and Muse are both pretty progressive and pretty good, although I'm not personally a fan of Muse.
Basically, what's happening to pop and rock now is what happened to Jazz when Kenny G showed up- they're removing the distinctiveness to make a bland product that people can listen too mindlessly.
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A lot of contemporary music is swimming in the void the old record company system left.
We seem to be in a period of confusion where on the one hand we celebrate the freedom and level playing field of the internet world but on the other hand are powerless to hear above the noise of everyone shouting for attention.
Going back to the cottage system and just working your butt off gathering an audience seems to be the only way.
One big difference is that no one particular group or artist is going to have a significant cultural impact like in the old system.
Not sure if that's good or bad. Just thinking out loud.
I mean if it wasn't for Clive Davis I don't think Mahavishnu would have hit like they did.
They had a champion in the system working for them.
But that system is gone.
I think the music we hear on our radio stations these days is a reaction to falling advertising budgets. People are advertising elsewhere and radio is desperate for a audience share. They are totally playing it safe and going with what will keep there advertisers happy.
No one's going to risk playing anything that hasn't come with a story or major record company backing.
But this new frontier plays into the hands of aspiring jazz artists and makes them available to a larger audience.
That's why I think there could be a new audience for jazz in whatever form you would like to name it.
I hope so anyway.
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I've been listening to Ben Monder tonight and I am totally "blown away" by his music, some of the best, most interesting music I have ever listened to. I will be doing a lot more listening to his music. How did I miss him in my search for really good listening?
wiz
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Ben is not really like anyone else. He is ceaseless in his effort and desire to expand and perfect his concept of pure music on the guitar. He doesn't play guitar like anyone else out there, which is not to say he can't play simply amazing blues if he wanted (check out Hanerin' on Dan Willis's CD) but his facility on the fingerboard transcends nearly anyone else's approach to any instrument. In my opinion, he and Mick Goodrick are alone in the ease and totality with which they can voice lead the most complex and beautiful harmony with impeccible time feel. Ben spent a lot of time with Bach chorales (and Mick's voice leading books, the ideas of he was not unfamiliar with even before) and now has the vision to be able to make melodic solo in 4 simultaneous voices when he chooses. Originally Posted by wizard3739
As far as why you'd missed him in your search? Some people don't get him. It's a far cry from Joe Pass. Even from the conventional guitar player, I'd dare say, but for me, I listened to him a lot and it's not so much that I understand his playing any better, but somehow everyone else somehow seems to have so much further to go to reckon with the instrument he has redefined.
Oh and if that's not enough, he recently played a gig with Margret Grebowicz and he was playing 6 string bass. It's not fair.
David
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I've been a Monder fan for a while, and David's right -- he's pretty amazing (especially live!). I think his work as a sideman is more "accessible," in case people need to "ease" into his playing.
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I actually have two Ben Monder solo records - that I enjoy a lot - but seeing him live, as an accompanist, really blew my mind. I had no idea his capabilities in terms of voice leading improvisation. Beautiful, magical stuff, it wasn't as clear on the records I have.
After seeing him then I'd agree that he's head and shoulders above most others, at least in terms of harmony. Very different guy.
Here's a word about tradition - I believe Monder has said in interviews (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that (like Nelson Veras) he hasn't really spent much time transcribing the classic jazz greats, at least not guitarists, and instead has spent more time immersed in things like Bartok string quartets.
It makes sense. I know everybody says imitate then innovate, but I think there is something to be said for getting immersed in more personal sources rather than just learning all the Joe Pass solos because you have to pay your dues.
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I think that we are talking about different things. I wasn't referring to youngsters as Rosenwinkle, Glasper, Lage Lund, etc. I was referring to youngesters meaning beginning and intermediate kids that are just stepping out to their first gigs and jams. Usually, if they step out with an attitude they get stepped on. If they are open minded and willing to listen to advice from the older generation, they usually will get a very warm reception. Originally Posted by Richb
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I wrote a cool book called "21st Century Chords For Guitar". You can download 4 free pages at my website: bloomworks.com (click on "21st Century Chords" at the top of the web page). In addition you can buy a PDF copy or a hard copy as well. Check it out! There's a lot of ideas in there.
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