Improvising over Dm9 - Bb9#11 - G/A-A+7 progression?

[Christian Miller]

Nah boss

D-9(maj7) - A mixolydian b6
Bb7#11 - C mixolydian b6
G/A - G Lydian Dominant
A7b13 - F mixolydian b6


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[mr. beaumont]

The key to playing modal over a progression like this is to make sure you fit in every note of the scale over each chord, twice if you can. Make sure the audience knows how hard you've practiced.

[joe2758]

I had an assignment once which was to establish a mode with as few notes as possible

So D Dorian would need at least DEFB
C maj would need CEFB
E phryg would need EFGB

etc. it was a cool exercise to get their individual characters

[Christian Miller]

The key to playing modal over a progression like this is to make sure you fit in every note of the scale over each chord, twice if you can. Make sure the audience knows how hard you've practiced.

That’s what jazz is


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[ragman1]

If those are the right modes of MM, yes; although to make them sound right I'm further displacing the assignment of the tonic down a tritone for what I'm calling Lyd Aug, so the "real" name may be once removed again... if so I'm sorry, I play by ear and try to name things after.

Well, I don't pretend to understand some of what you wrote but the mel m's that I think you mean are the ones generally accepted and that I use myself with one exception. I haven't tried it out yet but you said A mel m over the G/A. I see that as a G chord, not an A chord, so the G# may be suspect but the F# would be okay.

[mr. beaumont]

That’s what jazz is


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It's also important that your facial expression shows that it's difficult, but you are enjoying it. A half-smile, half grimace.

[Joe Passé]

It's also important that your facial expression shows that it's difficult, but you are enjoying it. A half-smile, half grimace.

Jazz smile

[starjasmine]

It's also important that your facial expression shows that it's difficult, but you are enjoying it. A half-smile, half grimace.

Jimmy Bruno demos jazz facial expressions while soloing in some GIT workshop years ago - it's hilarious. He plays the exact same lick with and without facial expressions to demonstrate that they communicate to the audience how impressed they should be that you can play something so difficult.

[starjasmine]

Only because you asked so nicely. Mainly Am/4, C/b6, G/4 and Bbm/2

Very nice. You've gotten me interested in checking out Jordan Klemons' approach. :-)

[jordanklemons]

His playing on Soundcloud was far more impressive. There was some very good guitar there.

Thanks... appreciate you listening!
Hope the music's treating you right.

[jordanklemons]

Only because you asked so nicely. Mainly Am/4, C/b6, G/4 and Bbm/2

Man... what's it been, Claus? 5? 10 years? Damn time flies.
Sounding good! I dig that quick little pull of phrase at ~25-26 seconds. VERY quadratonic-y lol

Glad to see you still at it!

[jordanklemons]

Very nice. You've gotten me interested in checking out Jordan Klemons' approach. :-)

Hey... appreciate that! Glad Claus' playing and/or the idea sparked some interest.
I'm not on the forum much these days, but feel free to reach out with any questions if you ever want.
Or I imagine you could ask Claus or any of the other cats here on the forum who've talked shop with me in the past for some guidance or starting points. Whatever works for you.

[ragman1]

Thanks... appreciate you listening!
Hope the music's treating you right.

Hi, Jordan, hope you're well. I take it the scares of yesteryear are over now. That would be good.

I don't think Claus knows that you and I had lots of full and frank discussions many moons ago but it doesn't matter. I never quite took to the triads idea but I guess that's a personal idiosyncrasy on my part. But it looks like you're still going strong.

Musically I'm restricted to the internet now due to various circumstances. It's not the excitement of gigging and whatnot but I cope :-)

[ragman1]

If those are the right modes of MM, yes; although to make them sound right I'm further displacing the assignment of the tonic down a tritone for what I'm calling Lyd Aug, so the "real" name may be once removed again... if so I'm sorry, I play by ear and try to name things after.

I've used your mel m's over the sequence. The A mel over G/A works better than I thought it would but the D mel over the Dm9 doesn't work for me, I still prefer the Am sound. The other two, Fm and Bbm, work fine and Berklee would be proud of us :-)

[Christian Miller]

You can change the chord qualities.

I mean you could sub everything out with altered...

[ragman1]

You can change the chord qualities.

As you have done here presumably:

D-9(maj7) - A mixolydian b6
Bb7#11 - C mixolydian b6
G/A - G Lydian Dominant
A7b13 - F mixolydian b6

You've introduced a C# into the Dm9 and made the G/A dominant.

Well, that undoubtedly opens the door for the melodic or harmonic minor over the Dm9. But you've changed the whole feel of that chord. I mean, that's a game we can play endlessly, isn't it?

But there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest the G/A is a dominant chord. It sounds major, let's face it, even with 9 in the bass. In any case, I think it's AI generated and who would put two chords with an A bass next to each other? In such a short loop.

So I don't see the point of changing anything at all in a short loop like that. It might be all right to change the harmonies of a whole standard if you're on the level of a Herbie Hancock or Chick Corea, etc, but messing with the OP's little example seems to me to be a bit absurd.

[jordanklemons]

A backing track with this progression popped up and I was at a loss.

I don't see a unifying scale, should I look at a different scale for each chord? Try to find the most related scales? Look at the arpeggios and add passing notes?

I understand basic chord/scale theory, and have a clue when improvising over the blues or more diatonic jazz progressions, but I need some help wrapping my head around this.

Kinda just sounds like a pretty straightforward turnaround / loop to my ear:

|| i | bVI | Vsus | V ||

The E7 in the B section is "just" the tritone sub of the Bb7 (bVI7). IF you think of the G/A as the Vsus like I'm hearing... it's just the V7 chord of the Vsus.


Hard to give an exact, personalized recommendation for improv without knowing where someone is in their playing.

I tend to think of chord scale theory as a 2-dimensional mapping system of a 3 dimension world. It's right! No doubt about that. But also, not really. It's correct in explaining the dimensions of music it has access to. But it doesn't have access to the complete picture. If you can already map out your arpeggios over these, that's a great "topography" map of progression. Sometimes. But not always the best way to express the melodic essence of the thing.

If I were working with a VERY early stage player... someone who knew their basic chord scale theory and a few pentatonic scales... and was mostly just a passionate hobbyist trying to have fun and sound as good as possible, as quickly as possible, without putting in 8 hours of practice a day or getting a PhD in theory and transcription...

I'd probably recommend they just use an A minor pentatonic/blues scale over this whole thing.
It'll sound soulful and pretty hip with essentially zero effort.
And let's be real... with the R&B vibes of this backing track... that's likely most of what we would hear an improviser playing over this type of progression doing on an album or at a gig. Really... even in some of the hippest and most straight ahead stuff you're going to get things like this showing up. It's basically what Herbie Hancock was hearing over his very similar changes on Cantaloupe Island.

IF someone novice could hang there and wanted more...
I might just recommend they just flat the A root note of the A minor pentatonic/blues scale every time they come upon the Bb7 and E7 chords but play all the same soulful, bluesy riffs.

Throw in a little chromaticism or a few leading tones, and you could sound really solid with this alone.
Add in an occasional arpeggio to prove we can "play the changes" and you've pretty much got everything you need.

But yeah...
It would be melodic triads all day for me!
Likely A minor triad based for the D- chord. Bluesy tension 4 would sound perfect. Tension 2 all day.
6, 9, and 12 note melodic triads bebop scales all day.
Melodic minor variations for the Bb7 and E7 harmonies using a C major triad.
Tension 2 with the bluesy #2 to access the modes of melodic minor while staying soulful and bluesy.
Tension b6 to get those G#'s in there.
Tension 4 just cause (and to give the bluesy 4-#2-3) enclosure around the E note.
6, 9, and 12 note melodic minor melodic triads bebop scales all day.
In fact... I might even opt to approach the D- harmony with the C major triad as well. Still emphasizes the 9 in the melodic structure over the min3. But with the added benefit of also tonicizing the 11 AND making the entire progression essentially based on a single triad, with shifting tension notes and bebop scale attachments. But it would lose the minor, soulful, darker vibe the A minor sound brings. Which would be a bit of a bummer ha

Maybe use Bb minor or F major triads over the A7, like Claus and Christian we're talking about. With the appropriate tension notes. F major with tensions 2, 4, and b6 would definitely sound hip... adding in the bluesy #2 (G#) note to stay soulful... and the corresponding 6, 9, and 12 note melodic minor bebop scales. Yeah. That ish could get nasty.
Who knows? Such a simple progression. We could take this in ALL KINDS of directions!
: )

But that's just how I would do it. And I recognize most people have no f'n clue wtf I'm talking about lol
It's just a more 3-dimensional approach to applying melodic minor modes to this progression to sound "cooler." But with the added benefit of specificity and clarity of phrasing, cleaner voice leading, prioritizing the upper extensions without running the risk of getting lost in the noodle-verse, having quick and easy access to the blue notes even in melodic minor, and maintaining the ability to zoom in and out from triads -> to four note structures -> to pentatonic scales -> and all the way up to 12 note bebop scales on a dime to alter the density of our lines without losing any of the previously mentioned benefits.

But if you're not eternally obsessed with triads like I am... it kind of just seems like a minor i bVI V vamp to me.
So treat it like an accordion. Simplify it to it's most basic level and start there. Think like an R&B player who's not listening to Wes or Coltrane. Get something foundational, bluesy, and soulful as the base. Something you can always fall back on. Where it's never a guessing game.
Then expand out from there with any options that light your soul on fire.

[Christian Miller]

Kinda just sounds like a pretty straightforward turnaround / loop to my ear:

|| i | bVI | Vsus | V ||

The E7 in the B section is "just" the tritone sub of the Bb7 (bVI7). IF you think of the G/A as the Vsus like I'm hearing... it's just the V7 chord of the Vsus.


Hard to give an exact, personalized recommendation for improv without knowing where someone is in their playing.

I tend to think of chord scale theory as a 2-dimensional mapping system of a 3 dimension world. It's right! No doubt about that. But also, not really. It's correct in explaining the dimensions of music it has access to. But it doesn't have access to the complete picture. If you can already map out your arpeggios over these, that's a great "topography" map of progression. Sometimes. But not always the best way to express the melodic essence of the thing.

If I were working with a VERY early stage player... someone who knew their basic chord scale theory and a few pentatonic scales... and was mostly just a passionate hobbyist trying to have fun and sound as good as possible, as quickly as possible, without putting in 8 hours of practice a day or getting a PhD in theory and transcription...

I'd probably recommend they just use an A minor pentatonic/blues scale over this whole thing.
It'll sound soulful and pretty hip with essentially zero effort.
And let's be real... with the R&B vibes of this backing track... that's likely most of what we would hear an improviser playing over this type of progression doing on an album or at a gig. Really... even in some of the hippest and most straight ahead stuff you're going to get things like this showing up. It's basically what Herbie Hancock was hearing over his very similar changes on Cantaloupe Island.

IF someone novice could hang there and wanted more...
I might just recommend they just flat the A root note of the A minor pentatonic/blues scale every time they come upon the Bb7 and E7 chords but play all the same soulful, bluesy riffs.

Throw in a little chromaticism or a few leading tones, and you could sound really solid with this alone.
Add in an occasional arpeggio to prove we can "play the changes" and you've pretty much got everything you need.

But yeah...
It would be melodic triads all day for me!
Likely A minor triad based for the D- chord. Bluesy tension 4 would sound perfect. Tension 2 all day.
6, 9, and 12 note melodic triads bebop scales all day.
Melodic minor variations for the Bb7 and E7 harmonies using a C major triad.
Tension 2 with the bluesy #2 to access the modes of melodic minor while staying soulful and bluesy.
Tension b6 to get those G#'s in there.
Tension 4 just cause (and to give the bluesy 4-#2-3) enclosure around the E note.
6, 9, and 12 note melodic minor melodic triads bebop scales all day.
In fact... I might even opt to approach the D- harmony with the C major triad as well. Still emphasizes the 9 in the melodic structure over the min3. But with the added benefit of also tonicizing the 11 AND making the entire progression essentially based on a single triad, with shifting tension notes and bebop scale attachments. But it would lose the minor, soulful, darker vibe the A minor sound brings. Which would be a bit of a bummer ha

Maybe use Bb minor or F major triads over the A7, like Claus and Christian we're talking about. With the appropriate tension notes. F major with tensions 2, 4, and b6 would definitely sound hip... adding in the bluesy #2 (G#) note to stay soulful... and the corresponding 6, 9, and 12 note melodic minor bebop scales. Yeah. That ish could get nasty.
Who knows? Such a simple progression. We could take this in ALL KINDS of directions!
: )

But that's just how I would do it. And I recognize most people have no f'n clue wtf I'm talking about lol
It's just a more 3-dimensional approach to applying melodic minor modes to this progression to sound "cooler." But with the added benefit of specificity and clarity of phrasing, cleaner voice leading, prioritizing the upper extensions without running the risk of getting lost in the noodle-verse, having quick and easy access to the blue notes even in melodic minor, and maintaining the ability to zoom in and out from triads -> to four note structures -> to pentatonic scales -> and all the way up to 12 note bebop scales on a dime to alter the density of our lines without losing any of the previously mentioned benefits.

But if you're not eternally obsessed with triads like I am... it kind of just seems like a minor i bVI V vamp to me.
So treat it like an accordion. Simplify it to it's most basic level and start there. Think like an R&B player who's not listening to Wes or Coltrane. Get something foundational, bluesy, and soulful as the base. Something you can always fall back on. Where it's never a guessing game.
Then expand out from there with any options that light your soul on fire.

Not dm pent then?


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[ragman1]

Christian's ignored me. I knew he would.

Jordan -

This is smooth jazz. The proof of the pudding's in the eating. Words are cheap. Play what you mean. We'll soon find out :-)

[jordanklemons]

Not dm pent then?


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Eh ¯\_(?)_/¯

It can work too. I'd just lean into A minor.
Gets us out of the lower structure chord tones while keeping things bluesy and soulful.
Drops the F note down to the E, which I think feels a little smoother over the Bb7, the Asus and dominant, and the E7.

If one knows how to turn the pentatonic scale into music... either will work.
I just think A minor sounded cooler to my ear.

[jordanklemons]

Christian's ignored me. I knew he would.

Jordan -

This is smooth jazz. The proof of the pudding's in the eating. Words are cheap. Play what you mean. We'll soon find out :-)

**“Ah, no worries — I saw you edited the ‘see post #1’ part.**

My reply was to the OP’s original question about how I’d approach that progression/groove. Since the backing track had that smooth-jazz/R&B feel, that’s the angle I was speaking from. Since folks brought me and the melodic triads approach up, I shared a broader view of where my mind would go if I were shedding over something like this.

And yeah — there’s definitely overlap between that vibe and what Herbie was doing on Cantaloupe Island. Whether someone’s coming from the straight-ahead side or the R&B side, it’s a cool little crossroads we can learn from where those worlds meet.

[ragman1]

**“Ah, no worries — I saw you edited the ‘see post #1’ part.**

I removed it because I saw you'd included it in your reply.

My reply was to the OP’s original question about how I’d approach that progression/groove. Since the backing track had that smooth-jazz/R&B feel, that’s the angle I was speaking from. Since folks brought me and the melodic triads approach up, I shared a broader view of where my mind would go if I were shedding over something like this.

Yes, I know, but I want to hear it!

[pamosmusic]

I removed it because I saw you'd included it in your reply.



Yes, I know, but I want to hear it!

Didn't you already?

Also you could always try it for yourself, I suppose.

[ragman1]

Didn't you already?

No, I haven't heard Jordan play all that complex triad stuff over the OP's loop, largely because he hasn't done it yet :-)

Also you could always try it for yourself, I suppose.

If you mean me playing the triads then I wouldn't know where to start, I know nothing about it, hence the request for a demo. It might be amazing, what do I know?

See, the problem here is that such requests are often seen as a challenge, like throwing down the gauntlet or something. But I'd never do that, it's far too immature. This is Jordan's thing, he's dedicated himself to it, he might even have invented it. I see nothing wrong in asking him to demonstrate it.

I'd much rather hear what it does than read a lot of text about it. It's like someone trying to describe something by Beethoven rather than playing it, pretty pointless really.

[starjasmine]

I'd much rather hear what it does than read a lot of text about it. It's like someone trying to describe something by Beethoven rather than playing it, pretty pointless really.

Jordan has posted vids to YT demo'ing his approach. If you really want to hear and understand it, google those instead of demanding a personal demo. It took me all of ten seconds to find.