Learning and Varying Vocabulary, Licks & Lines

[pamosmusic]

So I decided to practice James’s line today.

So the raw footage for this was about 18 minutes, which sounds about right. I usually set a timer for 20 minutes when I’m doing this.

I edited out a couple increments, but still would normally up the tempo more gradually than I do here.

Yes, I really do this. And would probably do it again the next day, because it’s a little sloppy at the top end. After a couple days, if I had the lick together, I would move to another string set and do the same thing.

If I had to guess, I probably played the lick 200 times. So after seven or eight days of doing this, we’d be up over 1500 passes through the lick. So 1500 times that I would’ve heard, and watched my hands play, this particular line.

It sounds like a lot but it works, and I think it speaks to this thing we’ve been talking about. We think that to be able to hear the honeysuckle rose lick better, we need to work on our ear in isolation (which is good to do); or that to play it better at tempo, we need to work on our technique in isolation (which is good to do).

But I think we sometimes forget that the best thing is often the obvious and boring thing. Which is to play the honeysuckle rose lick a few hundred times.

I’ll take it in small parts sometime and work on varying it and that sort of thing too. But this sort of repetition of longer lines is a thing I do more or less every day.

Anyway … here’s a very boring five minutes.

[Mick-7]

Can you listen to this slowed Charlie Parker lick and copy it by ear?

Yes, why do you ask? Db major scale lick, ending on the 4th scale note, Gb (or Gb Lydian).

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

[charlieparker]

Yes, why do you ask? Db major scale lick, ending on the 4th scale note, Gb (or Gb Lydian).

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

That's not how I heard it. It ends on the b7th of the key doesn't it?

[Mick-7]

That's not how I heard it. It ends on the b7th of the key doesn't it?

I was just quoting the scale notes, didn't consider the harmony.... Ab7? It would be the V7 in Db major. But what is the tune, a blues?

[pamosmusic]

Yes, why do you ask? Db major scale lick, ending on the 4th scale note, Gb (or Gb Lydian).

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

Mick, do you really not read this as condescending?

And not to condescend in return, but is this not a pretty common blues/bop Ab7 lick.

[pamosmusic]

I was just quoting the scale notes, didn't consider the harmony.

Well what if someone came along and said “if you can’t hear a simple dominant line like this in its proper harmonic context, you should really work on your ear training?”

I guess that would be a productive and chill thing to say?

[Mick-7]

Mick, do you really not read this as condescending?

And not to condescend in return, but is this not a pretty common blues/bop Ab7 lick.

I wouldn't take it that way. If someone said it to me, I'd consider it good constructive criticism ("that's something you need to work on"), especially since, as you said, it's a common blues phrase.

Well what if someone came along and said “if you can’t hear a simple dominant line like this in its proper harmonic context, you should really work on your ear training?”

I guess that would be a productive and chill thing to say?

Could be if that was the question, but it wasn't. Guy asked, "can you play this line by ear?" Which is why I replied to him, "why do you ask?"

[charlieparker]

Yes, why do you ask? Db major scale lick, ending on the 4th scale note, Gb (or Gb Lydian).

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

What does work on ear training mean though? Sight singing? Transcribing? That seems like a vague prescription.

[wolflen]

I don't get point #2? Points 1 & 2 seem contradictory, almost a Zen koan.

"..A coin lost in the river is found in the river.."

[pamosmusic]

I wouldn't take it that way. If someone said it to me, I'd consider it good constructive criticism

I’ll keep that in mind for the future.

[starjasmine]

What does work on ear training mean though? Sight singing? Transcribing? That seems like a vague prescription.

Like almost any question asked on this forum, answers will vary and people will argue about what it means. Here goes...

In the uni pedagogy, ear training means learning to identify intervals (harmonic and melodic), sonorities (ma, mi, aug, dim), common progressions (i.e. I IV V I, iii vi ii V I, etc.), phrases that comprise song form (AABA, etc), and - where I went to school - being able to realize these skills aurally, in notation, and on one's primary instrument. That is, if you hear a melody you can write it down and play it. If you see it in standard notation, you can sing it and play it. If you play a phrase, you ideate it in your "mind's ear" before you play it, and you can write down what you play.

That's basic ear training. It connects theoretical knowledge and mechanical technique to aural skills. Once you have the basics down, it lays a foundation for hearing more complex harmonies (extensions beyond 7th chords, unusual voicings) and more complex melodies (transcribing those Bird or Joe Pass solos that attract your ear).

PS/UPDATE: I have not read the entire thread, just saw the "what does ear training mean" question in the newest forum activity and answered it. I'm definitely not stepping into the middle of any tiff that might be going on between Peter and Mick. (After I posted, I read a few earlier replies and saw the whole condesencion thing... which I'm not intending to discuss either side of.)

[Mick-7]

What does work on ear training mean though? Sight singing? Transcribing? That seems like a vague prescription.

Both of the things you mentioned. But one would start by learning to hear simple diatonic lines and chords and going from there. This can be part of scale practice: play the scales in various intervals, make melodies out of the scale notes, etc. Just about everything you practice can become an ear training exercise.

[AllanAllen]

Yes, why do you ask? Db major scale lick, ending on the 4th scale note, Gb (or Gb Lydian).

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

Did you hear and label the notes away from your instrument?

As an experiment, I listened to it once then got my guitar to see if I could play it. Took me a few tries but in less than a minute I had it, and it looked like Ab7 to me.

I purposely used “looked” because I’m talking about the shape the lick made on the frets. Not sound or analysis over harmony.

Anyway, is that what you did, or did you just hear it and know?

[pamosmusic]

I'm definitely not stepping into the middle of any tiff that might be going on between Peter and Mick.

Shucks.

[Mick-7]

I think the main issue is that a lot of people have no idea how to practice. It's not obvious to most people. It does require intense focus and concentration, but it doesn't need to be more for about three to five minutes at a time. Get up, stretch, make coffee, put the dishes on, and do another five minutes on something else. Come back to the first thing later that day when you get a moment. I set a timer when I started doing it, until it became a habit.

Interleaved practice like this basically saved me from myself - exactly because I tend to hyperfocus for hours on one thing, which isn't actually a good thing. Then I had kids, and it became useful for the opposite reason haha.

But if you aren't focusing with that kind of intensity and attention, it probably isn't really practice.

Christian, The points you've made about practicing and what is an effective practice regimen (in this thread and elsewhere) are important and fundamental. If you haven't made a video on the subject, one would be a good idea.

[pamosmusic]

Both of the things you mentioned. But one would start by learning to hear simple diatonic lines and chords and going from there. This can be part of scale practice: play the scales in various intervals, make melodies out of the scale notes, etc.

So, yes. Agree with all of this. But hearing in context is also really important. So when me and Christian and James are talking about playing licks and singing and practicing and memorizing licks, that’s what we’re talking about. That’s why you ended up with an answer that was technically accurate (assuming you had the particular notes of the scale run you described) but had nothing to say about the purpose of the line. And why me and Mr Parker jumped to “oh it’s that dominant thing.”

So we’re not talking about practicing and memorizing licks because we want to put them in a binder and look at them every day. Or put a nickel in a jar for every one we learn and buy a candy bar at the end of the month or something.* It’s so that we hear that stuff and know what it’s doing.

Just about everything you practice can become an ear training exercise.

Well, yeah. That.

*actually maybe I should do this.

[Mick-7]

Did you hear and label the notes away from your instrument?

As an experiment, I listened to it once then got my guitar to see if I could play it. Took me a few tries but in less than a minute I had it, and it looked like Ab7 to me.

I purposely used “looked” because I’m talking about the shape the lick made on the frets. Not sound or analysis over harmony.

Anyway, is that what you did, or did you just hear it and know?

Well, my guitar is only a few feet away, I picked it up and played the line correctly the first time. But you've reminded me that I need to do more of this away from the instrument, I've found it to be much more productive - i.e., visualizing the fingerboard while you sound out the notes. Howard Roberts used to stress this: "play it in your mind's eye before you play it on your instrument."

[charlieparker]

Well, my guitar is only a few feet away, I picked it up and played the line correctly the first time. But you've reminded me that I need to do more of this away from the instrument, I've found it to be much more productive - i.e., visualizing the fingerboard while you sound out the notes. Howard Roberts used to stress this: "play it in your mind's eye before you play it on your instrument."

I wrote mine down without my instrument as I tend to use trial and error with my fingers when I use my instrument. I find I have to listen more carefully to notate the intervals without out it.

[James W]

TBF I wouldn't mind if Christian did a video on the topic of this thread (the original one, that is).

[Mick-7]

TBF I wouldn't mind if Christian did a video on the topic of this thread (the original one, that is).

I'm sure that Christian really appreciates us making work for him.

[starjasmine]

just hear it and know?

Yes - 1 3 1 2 1 6 5 1 3 b7. First time. That's the goal of formal ear training. Recognize/categorize sounds instantly upon hearing them. Major vs minor vs aug vs dim is like sweet sour salty spicy ... or red blue green yellow ... you train yourself so thoroughly that you "just know" on hearing and don't have to think about it.

I heard the whole lick as Ab7, despite the underlying chords being a ii - V - I

$0.02...

[James W]

I'm sure that Christian really appreciates us making work for him.

He makes videos anyway and if I'm not mistaken this forum has provided inspiration for several or more videos he's made.

[Christian Miller]

I was going to do a a video on this anyway. Tbh subjects for videos are never a problem - the issue is always the packaging/thumbnail. But I have an idea for that


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[Christian Miller]

Also I have a PayPal


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[Christian Miller]

Christian, The points you've made about practicing and what is an effective practice regimen (in this thread and elsewhere) are important and fundamental. If you haven't made a video on the subject, one would be a good idea.

Thank you. The thought had occurred …


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