Learning and Varying Vocabulary, Licks & Lines

[pamosmusic]

I was just quoting the scale notes, didn't consider the harmony.

Well what if someone came along and said “if you can’t hear a simple dominant line like this in its proper harmonic context, you should really work on your ear training?”

I guess that would be a productive and chill thing to say?

[Mick-7]

Mick, do you really not read this as condescending?

And not to condescend in return, but is this not a pretty common blues/bop Ab7 lick.

I wouldn't take it that way. If someone said it to me, I'd consider it good constructive criticism ("that's something you need to work on"), especially since, as you said, it's a common blues phrase.

Well what if someone came along and said “if you can’t hear a simple dominant line like this in its proper harmonic context, you should really work on your ear training?”

I guess that would be a productive and chill thing to say?

Could be if that was the question, but it wasn't. Guy asked, "can you play this line by ear?" Which is why I replied to him, "why do you ask?"

[charlieparker]

Yes, why do you ask? Db major scale lick, ending on the 4th scale note, Gb (or Gb Lydian).

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

What does work on ear training mean though? Sight singing? Transcribing? That seems like a vague prescription.

[wolflen]

I don't get point #2? Points 1 & 2 seem contradictory, almost a Zen koan.

"..A coin lost in the river is found in the river.."

[pamosmusic]

I wouldn't take it that way. If someone said it to me, I'd consider it good constructive criticism

I’ll keep that in mind for the future.

[starjasmine]

What does work on ear training mean though? Sight singing? Transcribing? That seems like a vague prescription.

Like almost any question asked on this forum, answers will vary and people will argue about what it means. Here goes...

In the uni pedagogy, ear training means learning to identify intervals (harmonic and melodic), sonorities (ma, mi, aug, dim), common progressions (i.e. I IV V I, iii vi ii V I, etc.), phrases that comprise song form (AABA, etc), and - where I went to school - being able to realize these skills aurally, in notation, and on one's primary instrument. That is, if you hear a melody you can write it down and play it. If you see it in standard notation, you can sing it and play it. If you play a phrase, you ideate it in your "mind's ear" before you play it, and you can write down what you play.

That's basic ear training. It connects theoretical knowledge and mechanical technique to aural skills. Once you have the basics down, it lays a foundation for hearing more complex harmonies (extensions beyond 7th chords, unusual voicings) and more complex melodies (transcribing those Bird or Joe Pass solos that attract your ear).

PS/UPDATE: I have not read the entire thread, just saw the "what does ear training mean" question in the newest forum activity and answered it. I'm definitely not stepping into the middle of any tiff that might be going on between Peter and Mick. (After I posted, I read a few earlier replies and saw the whole condesencion thing... which I'm not intending to discuss either side of.)

[Mick-7]

What does work on ear training mean though? Sight singing? Transcribing? That seems like a vague prescription.

Both of the things you mentioned. But one would start by learning to hear simple diatonic lines and chords and going from there. This can be part of scale practice: play the scales in various intervals, make melodies out of the scale notes, etc. Just about everything you practice can become an ear training exercise.

[AllanAllen]

Yes, why do you ask? Db major scale lick, ending on the 4th scale note, Gb (or Gb Lydian).

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

Did you hear and label the notes away from your instrument?

As an experiment, I listened to it once then got my guitar to see if I could play it. Took me a few tries but in less than a minute I had it, and it looked like Ab7 to me.

I purposely used “looked” because I’m talking about the shape the lick made on the frets. Not sound or analysis over harmony.

Anyway, is that what you did, or did you just hear it and know?

[pamosmusic]

I'm definitely not stepping into the middle of any tiff that might be going on between Peter and Mick.

Shucks.

[Mick-7]

I think the main issue is that a lot of people have no idea how to practice. It's not obvious to most people. It does require intense focus and concentration, but it doesn't need to be more for about three to five minutes at a time. Get up, stretch, make coffee, put the dishes on, and do another five minutes on something else. Come back to the first thing later that day when you get a moment. I set a timer when I started doing it, until it became a habit.

Interleaved practice like this basically saved me from myself - exactly because I tend to hyperfocus for hours on one thing, which isn't actually a good thing. Then I had kids, and it became useful for the opposite reason haha.

But if you aren't focusing with that kind of intensity and attention, it probably isn't really practice.

Christian, The points you've made about practicing and what is an effective practice regimen (in this thread and elsewhere) are important and fundamental. If you haven't made a video on the subject, one would be a good idea.

[pamosmusic]

Both of the things you mentioned. But one would start by learning to hear simple diatonic lines and chords and going from there. This can be part of scale practice: play the scales in various intervals, make melodies out of the scale notes, etc.

So, yes. Agree with all of this. But hearing in context is also really important. So when me and Christian and James are talking about playing licks and singing and practicing and memorizing licks, that’s what we’re talking about. That’s why you ended up with an answer that was technically accurate (assuming you had the particular notes of the scale run you described) but had nothing to say about the purpose of the line. And why me and Mr Parker jumped to “oh it’s that dominant thing.”

So we’re not talking about practicing and memorizing licks because we want to put them in a binder and look at them every day. Or put a nickel in a jar for every one we learn and buy a candy bar at the end of the month or something.* It’s so that we hear that stuff and know what it’s doing.

Just about everything you practice can become an ear training exercise.

Well, yeah. That.

*actually maybe I should do this.

[Mick-7]

Did you hear and label the notes away from your instrument?

As an experiment, I listened to it once then got my guitar to see if I could play it. Took me a few tries but in less than a minute I had it, and it looked like Ab7 to me.

I purposely used “looked” because I’m talking about the shape the lick made on the frets. Not sound or analysis over harmony.

Anyway, is that what you did, or did you just hear it and know?

Well, my guitar is only a few feet away, I picked it up and played the line correctly the first time. But you've reminded me that I need to do more of this away from the instrument, I've found it to be much more productive - i.e., visualizing the fingerboard while you sound out the notes. Howard Roberts used to stress this: "play it in your mind's eye before you play it on your instrument."

[charlieparker]

Well, my guitar is only a few feet away, I picked it up and played the line correctly the first time. But you've reminded me that I need to do more of this away from the instrument, I've found it to be much more productive - i.e., visualizing the fingerboard while you sound out the notes. Howard Roberts used to stress this: "play it in your mind's eye before you play it on your instrument."

I wrote mine down without my instrument as I tend to use trial and error with my fingers when I use my instrument. I find I have to listen more carefully to notate the intervals without out it.

[James W]

TBF I wouldn't mind if Christian did a video on the topic of this thread (the original one, that is).

[Mick-7]

TBF I wouldn't mind if Christian did a video on the topic of this thread (the original one, that is).

I'm sure that Christian really appreciates us making work for him.

[starjasmine]

just hear it and know?

Yes - 1 3 1 2 1 6 5 1 3 b7. First time. That's the goal of formal ear training. Recognize/categorize sounds instantly upon hearing them. Major vs minor vs aug vs dim is like sweet sour salty spicy ... or red blue green yellow ... you train yourself so thoroughly that you "just know" on hearing and don't have to think about it.

I heard the whole lick as Ab7, despite the underlying chords being a ii - V - I

$0.02...

[James W]

I'm sure that Christian really appreciates us making work for him.

He makes videos anyway and if I'm not mistaken this forum has provided inspiration for several or more videos he's made.

[Christian Miller]

I was going to do a a video on this anyway. Tbh subjects for videos are never a problem - the issue is always the packaging/thumbnail. But I have an idea for that


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[Christian Miller]

Also I have a PayPal


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[Christian Miller]

Christian, The points you've made about practicing and what is an effective practice regimen (in this thread and elsewhere) are important and fundamental. If you haven't made a video on the subject, one would be a good idea.

Thank you. The thought had occurred …


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[Christian Miller]

Like almost any question asked on this forum, answers will vary and people will argue about what it means. Here goes...

In the uni pedagogy, ear training means learning to identify intervals (harmonic and melodic), sonorities (ma, mi, aug, dim), common progressions (i.e. I IV V I, iii vi ii V I, etc.), phrases that comprise song form (AABA, etc), and - where I went to school - being able to realize these skills aurally, in notation, and on one's primary instrument. That is, if you hear a melody you can write it down and play it. If you see it in standard notation, you can sing it and play it. If you play a phrase, you ideate it in your "mind's ear" before you play it, and you can write down what you play.

That's basic ear training. It connects theoretical knowledge and mechanical technique to aural skills. Once you have the basics down, it lays a foundation for hearing more complex harmonies (extensions beyond 7th chords, unusual voicings) and more complex melodies (transcribing those Bird or Joe Pass solos that attract your ear).

PS/UPDATE: I have not read the entire thread, just saw the "what does ear training mean" question in the newest forum activity and answered it. I'm definitely not stepping into the middle of any tiff that might be going on between Peter and Mick. (After I posted, I read a few earlier replies and saw the whole condesencion thing... which I'm not intending to discuss either side of.)

The discussion of ear training could go into quite a lot of depth.

I prefer to call it 'being a musician'. The very concept of ear training is symptomatic of the failure of our education system. So the onus has to be on people like me teaching people to play simple things by ear from day 1. It's fun to do this with a group of kids. I'm refining my ideas on this atm. It's something very important to me, perhaps the most important thing.

Today, in Western culture we tend to associate musicianship much more closely with the ability to read. This tends to take the emphasis off the universal aspect of music - using one's ears. It's a classic thing with school age instrumental tuition in the UK at least that teachers take their students through the exam syllabus and come to the exam do a few minutes in the lessons on interval recognition or whatever is on the test and that's it. This is as true of the Rock exams as of the Classical, with the former example being in TAB. I don't hate exams per se - but this type of exam centred teaching cannot produce musicians and everyone knows it. We all get told not to teach this way, and yet the system does kind of encourage it, esp. with pushy parents etc.

Then if they go to music school they may (if fortunate) receive much needed remedial input in solfege, sight singing and formal ear training. As a result I think a lot of people who nominally play an instrument don't ever get into the guts of what makes the musician, because taking that first step becomes rather intimidating by the time you're an adult.

In contrast in the 18th century European sources on training of professional musicians there is no discussion of ear training - because all the students were trained in solfeggio from early childhood and much of the teaching of harmony and composition was aural - which is probably why relatively few sources on the pedagogy remain from that era. They were all musically literate of course - but the sounding nature of the music can first and foremost, and the score was understood as a vehicle for it, a connection cemented early on through the church choir singing they all did from an early age.

In the jazz world we have at least until recently, understood it as an aural tradition. And we have various types of folk music, not to mention other musical cultures throughout the world, such as Hindstani music where the teaching is primarily aural.

These traditions of learning are probably not too dissimilar from each other, at least in terms of the key learning processes.

Formal ear training is definitely useful I think, helps build the muscles. But I'd always keep the emphasis on trying to learn music, which sounds like it was the case for you in your studies.

But I have noticed a couple of things:

• First my innate ability to find notes on the guitar by ear (as opposed to writing things down to paper) seems to come mostly from playing experience.
• Secondly, schemata of various kinds are incredibly helpful. If I have played a chord voicings a million times, I am able to recognise it on guitar right away. The same with a familiar lick of pattern. Much like reading, a lot of having a good ear is probably down to having heard a LOT of music. So, transcribe a until you don't have to, I guess. For anything else, formal ear training helps you puzzle things out.

[charlieparker]

The discussion of ear training could go into quite a lot of depth.

I prefer to call it 'being a musician'. The very concept of ear training is symptomatic of the failure of our education system.

In the 18th century sources on training of professional musicians there is no discussion of ear training - because all the students were trained in solfeggio from early childhood and much of the teaching of harmony and composition was aural - which is probably why relatively few sources on the pedagogy remain from that era. They were all musically literate of course - but the sounding nature of the music can first and foremost, and the score was understood as a vehicle for it, a connection cemented early on through the church choir singing they all did from an early age.

In the jazz world we have at least until recently, understood it as an aural tradition. And we have various types of folk music, not to mention other musical cultures throughout the world, such as Hindstani music where the teaching is primarily aural - none of these are probably too dissimilar in terms of the key learning process from each other

Today, in Western culture we tend to associate musicianship much more closely with the ability to read. This tends to take the emphasis off the universal aspect of music - using one's ears. It's a classic thing with school age instrumental tuition in the UK at least that teachers take their students through the exam syllabus and come to the exam do a few minutes in the lessons on interval recognition or whatever is on the test and that's it. This is as true of the Rock exams as of the Classical, with the former example being in TAB. I don't hate exams per se - but this type of exam centred teaching cannot produce musicians and everyone knows it. We all get told not to teach this way, and yet the system does kind of encourage it, esp. with pushy parents etc.

Then if they go to music school they may (if fortunate) receive much needed remedial input in solfege, sight singing and formal ear training. As a result I think a lot of people don't ever get into the guts of what makes the musician, because taking that first step becomes rather intimidating by the time you're an adult.

Formal styles of ear training are definitely useful I think. I'd always keep the emphasis on trying to learn music, which sounds like it was the case for you in your studies.

But I have noticed a couple of things:

• First my innate ability to find notes on the guitar by ear (as opposed to writing things down to paper) seems to come mostly from playing experience.
• Secondly, schemata of various kinds are incredibly helpful. If I have played a chord voicings a million times, I am able to recognise it on guitar right away. The same with a familiar lick of pattern. Much like reading, a lot of having a good ear is probably down to having heard a LOT of music. So, transcribe a until you don't have to, I guess. For anything else, formal ear training helps you puzzle things out.

Yeah, I have worked on formal ear training, solfeggio, and apps like Auralia, learning to sing and recognize intervals, melodic dictation, etc. And I didn't find that useful. Maybe I never got to a good enough level with but I found that it didn't quite translate to real musical situations even though I could nail the exercises.

So I have been focusing more on "applied ear training" by focusing on transcribing jazz tunes, focusing on trying to hear bass lines, etc.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, I have worked on formal ear training, solfeggio, and apps like Auralia, learning to sing and recognize intervals, melodic dictation, etc. And I didn't find that useful. Maybe I never got to a good enough level with but I found that it didn't quite translate to real musical situations even though I could nail the exercises.

So I have been focusing more on "applied ear training" by focusing on transcribing jazz tunes, focusing on trying to hear bass lines, etc.

I think the formal ear training has helped me a good bit with harmony. Like hearing Ti or Fi in the context of what’s going on around it. Chord extensions and things like that.

And to relate it to Guys example, I got it right on the first try without a guitar but it took me a second of internal solfège. I’m not sure I would’ve been right on the first try with a guitar, but I would’ve been close and MUCH FASTER.

So I think that latter bit is more useful with jazz. The formal ear training is more useful when I’m arranging or when I’m teaching with my student band and that sort of thing. But the informal pattern recognition from repetition is more useful during performance. It’s less important that you’re 100% correct than it is that you’re pretty close and get there without thinking.

And it’s interesting that stuff we’d hear pretty easily would be considered pretty advanced solfège in a college class. Like a bassline:

Do do ti te — la mi la me — re di re le — sol si la ti — Do

Probably 90% of the forum members would know what they were hearing if they heard that, but it probably looks like code to most of them.

[starjasmine]

Formal ear training is definitely useful I think, helps build the muscles. But I'd always keep the emphasis on trying to learn music, which sounds like it was the case for you in your studies.

At one of the schools I attended, music majors were required to take a class entitled Musicianship. It was a lot of ear training, with other all-around-catch-all info mixed in, too. Like performance etiquette, listening to form, transcribing in standard notation, sight-singing. And lots of fun stories from the bandstand/orchestra pit. I had no idea what I was walking into, but it was a great connect-the-dots experience, weaving together all of the other studies.

[starjasmine]

Do do ti te — la mi la me — re di re le — sol si la ti — Do

Probably 90% of the forum members would know what they were hearing if they heard that, but it probably looks like code to most of them.

Count me in the 10 percent. I could sing it but I don't recognize it. Is this some well-known (except to me ) bass line?