Learning and Varying Vocabulary, Licks & Lines

[Christian Miller]

Like almost any question asked on this forum, answers will vary and people will argue about what it means. Here goes...

In the uni pedagogy, ear training means learning to identify intervals (harmonic and melodic), sonorities (ma, mi, aug, dim), common progressions (i.e. I IV V I, iii vi ii V I, etc.), phrases that comprise song form (AABA, etc), and - where I went to school - being able to realize these skills aurally, in notation, and on one's primary instrument. That is, if you hear a melody you can write it down and play it. If you see it in standard notation, you can sing it and play it. If you play a phrase, you ideate it in your "mind's ear" before you play it, and you can write down what you play.

That's basic ear training. It connects theoretical knowledge and mechanical technique to aural skills. Once you have the basics down, it lays a foundation for hearing more complex harmonies (extensions beyond 7th chords, unusual voicings) and more complex melodies (transcribing those Bird or Joe Pass solos that attract your ear).

PS/UPDATE: I have not read the entire thread, just saw the "what does ear training mean" question in the newest forum activity and answered it. I'm definitely not stepping into the middle of any tiff that might be going on between Peter and Mick. (After I posted, I read a few earlier replies and saw the whole condesencion thing... which I'm not intending to discuss either side of.)

The discussion of ear training could go into quite a lot of depth.

I prefer to call it 'being a musician'. The very concept of ear training is symptomatic of the failure of our education system. So the onus has to be on people like me teaching people to play simple things by ear from day 1. It's fun to do this with a group of kids. I'm refining my ideas on this atm. It's something very important to me, perhaps the most important thing.

Today, in Western culture we tend to associate musicianship much more closely with the ability to read. This tends to take the emphasis off the universal aspect of music - using one's ears. It's a classic thing with school age instrumental tuition in the UK at least that teachers take their students through the exam syllabus and come to the exam do a few minutes in the lessons on interval recognition or whatever is on the test and that's it. This is as true of the Rock exams as of the Classical, with the former example being in TAB. I don't hate exams per se - but this type of exam centred teaching cannot produce musicians and everyone knows it. We all get told not to teach this way, and yet the system does kind of encourage it, esp. with pushy parents etc.

Then if they go to music school they may (if fortunate) receive much needed remedial input in solfege, sight singing and formal ear training. As a result I think a lot of people who nominally play an instrument don't ever get into the guts of what makes the musician, because taking that first step becomes rather intimidating by the time you're an adult.

In contrast in the 18th century European sources on training of professional musicians there is no discussion of ear training - because all the students were trained in solfeggio from early childhood and much of the teaching of harmony and composition was aural - which is probably why relatively few sources on the pedagogy remain from that era. They were all musically literate of course - but the sounding nature of the music can first and foremost, and the score was understood as a vehicle for it, a connection cemented early on through the church choir singing they all did from an early age.

In the jazz world we have at least until recently, understood it as an aural tradition. And we have various types of folk music, not to mention other musical cultures throughout the world, such as Hindstani music where the teaching is primarily aural.

These traditions of learning are probably not too dissimilar from each other, at least in terms of the key learning processes.

Formal ear training is definitely useful I think, helps build the muscles. But I'd always keep the emphasis on trying to learn music, which sounds like it was the case for you in your studies.

But I have noticed a couple of things:

• First my innate ability to find notes on the guitar by ear (as opposed to writing things down to paper) seems to come mostly from playing experience.
• Secondly, schemata of various kinds are incredibly helpful. If I have played a chord voicings a million times, I am able to recognise it on guitar right away. The same with a familiar lick of pattern. Much like reading, a lot of having a good ear is probably down to having heard a LOT of music. So, transcribe a until you don't have to, I guess. For anything else, formal ear training helps you puzzle things out.

[charlieparker]

The discussion of ear training could go into quite a lot of depth.

I prefer to call it 'being a musician'. The very concept of ear training is symptomatic of the failure of our education system.

In the 18th century sources on training of professional musicians there is no discussion of ear training - because all the students were trained in solfeggio from early childhood and much of the teaching of harmony and composition was aural - which is probably why relatively few sources on the pedagogy remain from that era. They were all musically literate of course - but the sounding nature of the music can first and foremost, and the score was understood as a vehicle for it, a connection cemented early on through the church choir singing they all did from an early age.

In the jazz world we have at least until recently, understood it as an aural tradition. And we have various types of folk music, not to mention other musical cultures throughout the world, such as Hindstani music where the teaching is primarily aural - none of these are probably too dissimilar in terms of the key learning process from each other

Today, in Western culture we tend to associate musicianship much more closely with the ability to read. This tends to take the emphasis off the universal aspect of music - using one's ears. It's a classic thing with school age instrumental tuition in the UK at least that teachers take their students through the exam syllabus and come to the exam do a few minutes in the lessons on interval recognition or whatever is on the test and that's it. This is as true of the Rock exams as of the Classical, with the former example being in TAB. I don't hate exams per se - but this type of exam centred teaching cannot produce musicians and everyone knows it. We all get told not to teach this way, and yet the system does kind of encourage it, esp. with pushy parents etc.

Then if they go to music school they may (if fortunate) receive much needed remedial input in solfege, sight singing and formal ear training. As a result I think a lot of people don't ever get into the guts of what makes the musician, because taking that first step becomes rather intimidating by the time you're an adult.

Formal styles of ear training are definitely useful I think. I'd always keep the emphasis on trying to learn music, which sounds like it was the case for you in your studies.

But I have noticed a couple of things:

• First my innate ability to find notes on the guitar by ear (as opposed to writing things down to paper) seems to come mostly from playing experience.
• Secondly, schemata of various kinds are incredibly helpful. If I have played a chord voicings a million times, I am able to recognise it on guitar right away. The same with a familiar lick of pattern. Much like reading, a lot of having a good ear is probably down to having heard a LOT of music. So, transcribe a until you don't have to, I guess. For anything else, formal ear training helps you puzzle things out.

Yeah, I have worked on formal ear training, solfeggio, and apps like Auralia, learning to sing and recognize intervals, melodic dictation, etc. And I didn't find that useful. Maybe I never got to a good enough level with but I found that it didn't quite translate to real musical situations even though I could nail the exercises.

So I have been focusing more on "applied ear training" by focusing on transcribing jazz tunes, focusing on trying to hear bass lines, etc.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, I have worked on formal ear training, solfeggio, and apps like Auralia, learning to sing and recognize intervals, melodic dictation, etc. And I didn't find that useful. Maybe I never got to a good enough level with but I found that it didn't quite translate to real musical situations even though I could nail the exercises.

So I have been focusing more on "applied ear training" by focusing on transcribing jazz tunes, focusing on trying to hear bass lines, etc.

I think the formal ear training has helped me a good bit with harmony. Like hearing Ti or Fi in the context of what’s going on around it. Chord extensions and things like that.

And to relate it to Guys example, I got it right on the first try without a guitar but it took me a second of internal solfège. I’m not sure I would’ve been right on the first try with a guitar, but I would’ve been close and MUCH FASTER.

So I think that latter bit is more useful with jazz. The formal ear training is more useful when I’m arranging or when I’m teaching with my student band and that sort of thing. But the informal pattern recognition from repetition is more useful during performance. It’s less important that you’re 100% correct than it is that you’re pretty close and get there without thinking.

And it’s interesting that stuff we’d hear pretty easily would be considered pretty advanced solfège in a college class. Like a bassline:

Do do ti te — la mi la me — re di re le — sol si la ti — Do

Probably 90% of the forum members would know what they were hearing if they heard that, but it probably looks like code to most of them.

[starjasmine]

Formal ear training is definitely useful I think, helps build the muscles. But I'd always keep the emphasis on trying to learn music, which sounds like it was the case for you in your studies.

At one of the schools I attended, music majors were required to take a class entitled Musicianship. It was a lot of ear training, with other all-around-catch-all info mixed in, too. Like performance etiquette, listening to form, transcribing in standard notation, sight-singing. And lots of fun stories from the bandstand/orchestra pit. I had no idea what I was walking into, but it was a great connect-the-dots experience, weaving together all of the other studies.

[starjasmine]

Do do ti te — la mi la me — re di re le — sol si la ti — Do

Probably 90% of the forum members would know what they were hearing if they heard that, but it probably looks like code to most of them.

Count me in the 10 percent. I could sing it but I don't recognize it. Is this some well-known (except to me ) bass line?

[pamosmusic]

Count me in the 10 percent. I could sing it but I don't recognize it. Is this some well-known (except to me ) bass line?

Nah but it’s a I VI ii V

Being able to hear all that and just go “oh yeah it’s this thing” quickly, rather than be able to dictate it exactly is the useful bit more often than not

[Christian Miller]

Moveable do solfege - I'm not 100% on why it's meant to help. I'm probably dyslexic so I'd get the te's and ti's mixed up. Forget that noise. Numbers are fine.

[starjasmine]

Miiiii so la do laaaaaa
So mi so mi reeeeee ....

Write now to get your FREE copy of the Solfege Real Book!

[pamosmusic]

Moveable do solfege - I'm not 100% on why it's meant to help. I'm probably dyslexic so I'd get the te's and ti's mixed up. Forget that noise. Numbers are fine.

Full disclosure, I love solfege.

Also not terribly useful in this context.

[starjasmine]

Moveable do solfege - I'm not 100% on why it's meant to help. I'm probably dyslexic so I'd get the te's and ti's mixed up. Forget that noise. Numbers are fine.

[AllanAllen]

Yes - 1 3 1 2 1 6 5 1 3 b7.

Based on these numbers, I don’t think I played it right.

[pamosmusic]

Based on these numbers, I don’t think I played it right.

But what if I told you it was

do mi do re do la so do mi te

??

[James W]

At one of the schools I attended, music majors were required to take a class entitled Musicianship. It was a lot of ear training, with other all-around-catch-all info mixed in, too. Like performance etiquette, listening to form, transcribing in standard notation, sight-singing. And lots of fun stories from the bandstand/orchestra pit. I had no idea what I was walking into, but it was a great connect-the-dots experience, weaving together all of the other studies.

Lucky. There was (and most likely is) no such thing at the music school I attended. And I'm guessing, but I don't think my place was out of the ordinary among British universities for not including anything to do with musicianship. However I realised something was lacking for me in this area from my contact with other students, making me pursue it in the form of sight-singing.
Obviously I would welcome the introduction of musicianship modules to British universities but TBH it's a bit late by then - and I don't think the chances of such a thing finding its way onto the school music curriculum are high, some how...

[jazzyfan]

The style of picking is Chuck Wayne picking if you didn't know, which I'm sure you did. It seems to be working well enough for you.



You certainly seemed to be very preoccupied with what you felt were problems with your technique. I can't say it was something that jumped out at me from your playing, but sometimes it's hard to tell unless you are siting in a room with someone.



It's a completely different thing IMO. Because the aims and process of the music itself is different. I don't think Troy gets this because he isn't a jazz player. We want the instrument to disappear, to become transparent. Technique is one tool we develop to help with this. I don't think that's true of rock/metal players - at least not many of them.



I don't think that's a bad piece of advice. But it is intuitive - listen to your body. If something feels tense, awkward or complicated, it probably is. If something feels simple and easy, it is probably good. Make movements as simple as you can. Be observant of issues as they arise and how they feel. It's very kinaesthetic. The visual element is helpful too. How does the playing look? This also where my contempt for my pinky finger arises, though that's another story haha.

That's what I always did - I didn't have a technique teacher - and I think it stood me in good stead. If I have any talent for the guitar I think it's in this area, so I may be guilty of not understanding issues people may have. But as someone who has also relearned technique three times (never to do with speed BTW), I do get it on some level.

But from my experience as a teacher the biggest technical issues are all psychological at root. People get very worried about hitting the wrong string. That's where poor string crossing mechanics develop from. I teach rest stroke as the antidote to that.

The other HUGE thing is that people often perceive music to be faster than it is. This is an issue with audiation and relaxation. If you feel under pressure you will tense up. OTOH if you get in the right place everything seems slower. You have to learn the pocket of a given tempo, which is psychological but manifests itself as a rhythmic pocket. It's the same place that Galper demonstrates in the video - transparent instrument, strong brain signal. This is a problem with practicing always slow as Ragman suggests, BTW...

Speaking of rock guitarists it's worth nothing that Satriani, Van, Guthrie and Yngwie all started learning things by ear. So they are very much ear players. Hearing fast music helps play it.

What's not mentioned often enough is that not all techniques are created equal. Some have built in problems that can never be overcome. Most of them. The student who is self-taught will not know about this deficiency when they start practicing that problematic technique. By the time they are good at it, they realise the deficiency, but by then they have sunk so much into it, that they hide the problems like a dirty secret. I've seen many teachers who teach one of these deficient techniques to new students because they know no other way. Sometimes I think it's because they are furious with themselves for not being more discriminating when they were learning, and so they pass this technique on to others. Like a virus. Horrible.

[Mick-7]

Yeah, I have worked on formal ear training, solfeggio, and apps like Auralia, learning to sing and recognize intervals, melodic dictation, etc. And I didn't find that useful. Maybe I never got to a good enough level with but I found that it didn't quite translate to real musical situations even though I could nail the exercises.

So I have been focusing more on "applied ear training" by focusing on transcribing jazz tunes, focusing on trying to hear bass lines, etc.

It sounds like you did not translate the ear training exercises to the guitar, that is essential. You have to associate the pitches and intervals with fret positions and fingerboard patterns, visualize the fingerboard and hum the notes or imagine how they sound. I used to carry a card in my wallet that showed all the notes on the first 12 frets of the fingerboard, and I also carried a pitch pipe or harmonica to remind me of the string pitches.

[Christian Miller]

Sorry if the joke flew over my head …. But when I sight sing I’m expected to sing the words printed underneath the music?

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[GuyBoden]

Can you listen to this slowed Charlie Parker lick and copy it by ear?

This is an example of finding a simple short phrase I like and then learning it by ear.

I then have to repeatedly play the phrase over a month or more for the phrase to be ingrained into my sub conscious and become apart of my improv language.

It doesn't have to be a difficult phrase, the easier the phrase, the easier it is to learn and more importantly remember.

[Christian Miller]

What's not mentioned often enough is that not all techniques are created equal. Some have built in problems that can never be overcome. Most of them. The student who is self-taught will not know about this deficiency when they start practicing that problematic technique. By the time they are good at it, they realise the deficiency, but by then they have sunk so much into it, that they hide the problems like a dirty secret. I've seen many teachers who teach one of these deficient techniques to new students because they know no other way. Sometimes I think it's because they are furious with themselves for not being more discriminating when they were learning, and so they pass this technique on to others. Like a virus. Horrible.

While it is true that there are inherently bad ways to pick, all workable techniques have built in problems. You might get to choose your poison.

The way I see it is that all guitar techniques have to deal with the issue that picking single notes is not like strumming. Strumming is a free and highly rhythmic physical movement (oo-er) which locks into the beat, has a wide dynamic range and in many ways is the ideal way to play the insturment. The body wants to do it. The hardest thing is teaching students to catch the upstrokes in the right place.

The problem is to bring that to single string playing you have to deal with the issue that if you lock into the beat like strumming (what is inaccurately called alternate picking) you have to address the specifics of playing only the desired string and getting over and under the strings to other strings cleanly and easily. This tends to be more mechanically complex - and it also invites the dreaded string hopping if you aren't careful. But if they can address this these players tend to have a strong pocket - if mostly tending to employ even subdivisions like 8ths and 16ths.

Your poison here is that the technique is not easy, so you'll probably spend most of your time complaining about your technique haha. Also alternate picking is less a technique per se than an outcome - there's a number of solutions to allow it, and I'm not sure teachers always understand this aspect.

OTOH you can simplify the mechanics and then decouple the right hand from the downstroke/downbeat thing which can be an issue for your time. Examples if this include Gj picking, Benson picking, economy/Chuck Wayne picking. It can of course be worked on - Benson has clearly got the cheat codes - but it is often observed that many such players have a tendency to rush. Mea culpa.

Your poison here is that you need to be hyper vigilant about timing. Also your ability to accentuate notes might be tied to your left hand fingerings. There's also things that are much easier to play than others with all of these techniques, while with alternate picking there's a greater 'one size fits all' flexibility perhaps (this is less of an issue than people think though.)

That said some techniques that are mechanically efficient also trade in acoustic tone production and dynamic control that you get with strumming (and trad Rest Stroke picking), which may not be such an issue on electric guitar - but then on electric you have the issue of muting.

Some players have solved this problem better than others, it's true. But no technique I'm aware of gets you everything. The nearest I've personally come to it is my modified version of Rest Stroke picking, which allows me alternate pick.

[Christian Miller]

Lucky. There was (and most likely is) no such thing at the music school I attended. And I'm guessing, but I don't think my place was out of the ordinary among British universities for not including anything to do with musicianship. However I realised something was lacking for me in this area from my contact with other students, making me pursue it in the form of sight-singing.
Obviously I would welcome the introduction of musicianship modules to British universities but TBH it's a bit late by then - and I don't think the chances of such a thing finding its way onto the school music curriculum are high, some how...

My experience with choirs was very much everyone just expected you to be able to do it and work it out yourself somehow. So, similar to yours. Often I'd find myself next to people who'd been doing this stuff since childhood and singing one voice a part masses every Sunday... So there's a temptation to become a bit of 'leaner'. It took me a long time to understand how to work on it.

In terms of higher education, I think it varies widely and depends on who you get. For instance, a friend who teaches among other things, musicianship to the classical students at a conservatoire is super evangelical about it, and makes all his teaching as ear based as he can.

[James W]

My experience with choirs was very much everyone just expected you to be able to do it and work it out yourself somehow. So, similar to yours. Often I'd find myself next to people who'd been doing this stuff since childhood and singing one voice a part masses every Sunday... So there's a temptation to become a bit of 'leaner'. It took me a long time to understand how to work on it.In terms of higher education, I think it varies widely and depends on who you get. For instance, a friend who teaches among other things, musicianship to the classical students at Trinity is super evangelical about it, and makes all his teaching as ear based as he can. But it's hard for him - he was teaching harmony and counterpoint and getting everyone to sing what they had written in the classroom (the way it should be), and then the next term they said 'oh this is an academic theory course, you can do this online.' So.. not everyone gets it, especially the older more traditional classical people who see everything in discrete little boxes. Space is really at a premium at the campus though - the premises are Grade I listed, so there's no room to expand even if they had the money.

I've definitely been a leaner! It's alright if you're near someone worth leaning against haha. One of the reasons I stopped going to the choral society in my town was it was a bit irksome singing with people with dodgy intonation.Singing music is definitely the way forward with ear training, and I always do it with my guitar in hand just to check.

[CliffR]

I remember at school being dragged in to be part of the chorus for Pirates Of Penzance. We were each given the score and expected to just sing the notes. I couldn't read music and, even if I could, I certainly wouldn't have been able to sing the notes . Eventually they told me to just move my mouth and not make any sound.

[CliffR]

If anyone cannot identify a diatonic line like this one the first time they hear it, they really should work on ear training.

Well, I guess I should work on ear training. I certainly couldn't name the notes without my instrument, and I dare say it would have taken me a few minutes searching for them on the guitar.

[Christian Miller]

I remember at school being dragged in to be part of the chorus for Pirates Of Penzance. We were each given the score and expected to just sing the notes. I couldn't read music and, even if I could, I certainly wouldn't have been able to sing the notes . Eventually they told me to just move my mouth and not make any sound.

That's quality music teaching that is

[CliffR]

That's quality music teaching that is

My favourite lesson was when our music teacher spent most of it complaining about having the family over for Sunday lunch and how the heathens had covered her carefully cooked meal in tomato ketchup. Without tasting it first!

[joe2758]

the issue is always the packaging/thumbnail.
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How about: STOP WASTING YOUR TIME! I only was able to learn JAZZ VOCABULARY when I started doing THIS!