Rhythm Changes A section, who is playing on each chord?

[rpjazzguitar]

As a practical matter, if I know the tune or the harmony is otherwise within my grasp, I might think about tonal center, chord tones and extensions, if I was thinking at all, but never about more scales.

OTOH, if the harmony is odd enough (like that 4 bars of Podicre I posted recently), it's pencil, paper and CST.

[Reg]

Yea most just don't really get past the basic steps of any approach. Which can work great if one has the skills and ears.

If one really wants to understand Chord scale approach, you need to understand how to harmonically and musically organize the complete picture. All notes of a melody or of improve usually....imply harmony.
Chromatic notes are generally from a chord or pitch organized pattern, which also generally from chords...

We are talking about playing Jazz...

A note doesn't need a chord to be played or notated... it can be implied. Which is generally what Chord Patterns are. Chord Patterns are just like licks, chord licks.
When you use chromatic organization for adding notes and skip the harmonic BS. It can become very muddy.

Most good jazz player are either aware of harmonic organizational concepts, or have trained their ears to just hear it. There are differences... I can tell easily from most of my gigs being with rhythm section backing up leaders etc.

CS is one approach for helping to organize developing improve.... not just the soloist, the rest of the ensemble.
It can help make longer sections of music.... feel right or at least better.

It's like many things in jazz... it's not just reading the notes or playing the part... it becomes how you develop what your playing.

Yea you need to get ahead of the moment... or as I said decades ago.... Your late.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, the answer is to listen.

ONLY THE BASS outlines each chord. The piano follows the contours of the changes, but doesn't pound out every single change. And the sax or soloist makes broad generalizations, prioritizing the flow of the melody.

That's a pretty good outline, I think?

(Also that Sonny album absolutely rules -- that was at the local CD store when I was in high school, so by coincidence it was the first Sonny album I owned, and I played that thing to death. The Stopper? Scoops? No Moe? Slow Boat?

Come on.)

[RobSilver7]

If anyone has an example of someone hitting every chord in a musical fashion on rhythm changes, I'd love to hear it.

Sonny Stitt always.

[P4guitar]

If I think of Bb tonal center and I adjust the Bb to B and the Eb to E, the result is the same notes as Gmixo, but I'm getting there with a different thought process.

Yes, that is what I think the keycentric players are doing - I could be wrong though. Note, however you are doing it, it seems you're still acknowledging the chord of the moment like in CST.

So, is CST dependent on a particular thought process, irrespective of the notes that result?

Not sure I understand this. To me it's just seeing a chord and knowing the scales that would work for my ears in that context.

Or am I just beating the usual dying horse of trying to define a term which has no standard definition?

Dunno. I said I'm untutored and I mean it.

In general, I find it easier to identify the desired sound by altering the chords while comping, well, one chord at a time. So, I'd rather think G7 or G7#9b13 than to think in terms of scale names.

I don't understand the first sentence above. As for the 2nd sentence, I don't think in terms of scale names. I think that this chord in this context needs a #9 or something and just know the scale or scales that'll fit. I'm not thinking lydian, harmonic minor, etc.. Maybe I've done this so long I don't have to think scale names and just automatically find something that works...most of the time

But, clearly, some players have put in the work and can do it with scale names. And, I can see that it has its advantages once you've done the work.

I don't think in terms of scale names, although I know them all or most of them, but since I've gone down the Barry Harris rabbit hole, I only use 3 scales for almost everything. Again in practice for me, the chord in its context determines the scale.

Now that I've written this down I'm not sure I'm understanding your concept of CST and we may be talking at cross purposes. Sorry about that, but it's the best I can do.

[pamosmusic]

I don't think in terms of scale names, although I know them all or most of them, but since I've gone down the Barry Harris rabbit hole, I only use 3 scales for almost everything. Again in practice for me, the chord in its context determines the scale.

I guess worth mentioning again that Barry simplifies the chord changes considerably.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes, that is what I think the keycentric players are doing - I could be wrong though. Note, however you are doing it, it seems you're still acknowledging the chord of the moment like in CST


Not sure I understand this. To me it's just seeing a chord and knowing the scales that would work for my ears in that context.



Dunno. I said I'm untutored and I mean it.



I don't understand the first sentence above. As for the 2nd sentence, I don't think in terms of scale names. I think that this chord in this context needs a #9 or something and just know the scale or scales that'll fit. I'm not thinking lydian, harmonic minor, etc.. Maybe I've done this so long I don't have to think scale names and just automatically find something that works...most of the time



I don't think in terms of scale names, although I know them all or most of them, but since I've gone down the Barry Harris rabbit hole, I only use 3 scales for almost everything. Again in practice for me, the chord in its context determines the scale.

Now that I've written this down I'm not sure I'm understanding your concept of CST and we may be talking at cross purposes. Sorry about that, but it's the best I can do.

I appreciate the reply. Sorry that I wasn't clearer. I was talking about playing through the chords of a tune, including my variations on the vanilla version, and then considering using those sounds in a solo.

So, to give a simple example, if there was a ii V I in Cmajor, I might comp it as Dm9 G7#9b13 C69. Maybe add a half-step before the G-dominant. Then, later, when soloing, play some notes from G7#9b13. As a practical matter, I'd be thinking "G7 and use the Eb and Bb", if I was thinking at all. And, I'd know that the Ab is likely to be a good choice because b9 and #9 usually work together. If there are gaps in this theory, I don't worry about them and just fill it in by ear. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Strat-itis]

Also that Sonny album absolutely rules -- that was at the local CD store when I was in high school, so by coincidence it was the first Sonny album I owned, and I played that thing to death. The Stopper? Scoops? No Moe? Slow Boat?

Come on.

That's a $$ early album to have.

That's a pretty good outline, I think?

Yep, that's what it seems like to me upon cursory listens. I'm sure deeper transcription and analysis would confirm it. In Chris class he also explicitly says that the first 4 bars for soloing in rhythm changes are just 1 or 1, 5. Scoffing at people who analyze the notes chord by chord.

Listening to the Sonny Stitt example above, it's obviously a sliding scale with how much of the changes the players choose to play. But it certainly isn't the rule that the band always outlines every change. More the bass outlines every change, the piano plays a simplified outlined bed of harmony, and the soloist makes general sweeps over the main events of the harmonic form.

[GuyBoden]

That's a very restricted view of CST, IMO. CST is merely a framework for consonant note selection, not a religion excluding all notes outside the chosen scale. But sure, use what you want. I certainly do.

Yes I agree, I was taught CST and have a good understanding of the method, but no additional chromatic notes were used when I was taught CST, hopefully that has changed.

Nowadays, I've realised it's about note choices that fit with the harmony not about scale choices.



Chord-Scale Theory – Open Music Theory

"Dmin7 chord extended to the thirteenth consists of the notes D, F, A, C, E, G, and B, which are identical to the notes of the D dorian mode stacked in thirds"

[P4guitar]

I guess worth mentioning again that Barry simplifies the chord changes considerably.

How so?

[P4guitar]

I appreciate the reply. Sorry that I wasn't clearer. I was talking about playing through the chords of a tune, including my variations on the vanilla version, and then considering using those sounds in a solo.

So, to give a simple example, if there was a ii V I in Cmajor, I might comp it as Dm9 G7#9b13 C69. Maybe add a half-step before the G-dominant. Then, later, when soloing, play some notes from G7#9b13. As a practical matter, I'd be thinking "G7 and use the Eb and Bb", if I was thinking at all. And, I'd know that the Ab is likely to be a good choice because b9 and #9 usually work together. If there are gaps in this theory, I don't worry about them and just fill it in by ear. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

That's basically CST because you're acknowledging the chord. You may not be naming the scale (I don't either), but you're playing it.

[pamosmusic]

how so?

i - v - i - v
i7 - iv7 - i - v

[sully75]

Sonny Stitt always.

Yes! He's hitting enough of the accidentals that clearly shows he can, at will. Thank you.

[P4guitar]

Yes I agree, I was taught CST and have a good understanding of the method, but no additional chromatic notes were used when I was taught CST, hopefully that has changed.

I have no idea as I'm self-taught. Even back in the day when I developed a CST approach, I knew other notes outside the strict CST recommended scale could work, especially when leading to a scale note. To me, CST is just a scaffolding consisting of "good" notes that I can rely on to flesh out lines.

Nowadays, I've realised it's about note choices that fit with the harmony not about scale choices.

I still use CST to define the vast majority of notes that fit the harmony.

As for the "Limitations of Chord-Scale Theory" picture, I have a different take. To me it looks like that author is writing with the premise that the CST adherent can only use strict CST, nothing else.

• Voice leading: CST is not a universal theory of music, it's just a tool, and IMO a very effective tool used properly.
• Lack of chromaticism: CST says nothing about chromaticism. If one strictly plays only CST approved notes, one can still play some great lines. I use CST interspersed with chromatics, but CST is my foundation.
• The anachronism of using a 60's modal concept on older tunes: I definitely use CST on older tunes and it works great. I don't buy this argument.
• Avoidance of the oral tradition: The author doesn't know the difference between "oral" and "aural" - no matter. It's a nonsense argument as CST has nothing to do with those points.

[djg]

• Avoidance of the oral tradition: The author doesn't know the difference between "oral" and "aural" - no matter. It's a nonsense argument as CST has nothing to do with those points.

i'm not a native speaker but i am pretty sure that oral tradition is the right term here.

[P4guitar]

i'm not a native speaker but i am pretty sure that oral tradition is the right term here.

Okay.

[P4guitar]

i - v - i - v
i7 - iv7 - i - v

I don't understand what you've written above. I can't tell from the font on my screen if you're saying dominant or minor. What's your simplified substitution(s)?

[djg]

Okay.

there is common language that musicians from the same "tribe" use. like clan tags. if you dont use them you will be seen as an outsider in certain groups. these licks or gestures are passed on via the oral tradition. because this kind of jazz (bebop, hardbop, modern mainstream) is folk music. or at least it used to be.

[joe2758]

I don't understand what you've written above. I can't tell from the font on my screen if you're saying dominant or minor. What's your simplified substitution(s)?

I think he meant major 3rds on all those chords.

[P4guitar]

there is common language that musicians from the same "tribe" use. like clan tags. if you dont use them you will be seen as an outsider in certain groups. these licks or gestures are passed on via the oral tradition. because this kind of jazz (bebop, hardbop, modern mainstream) is folk music. or at least it used to be.

Shibboleth. Your implication is that everything was handed down orally, not formalized in written form. I can see that.

Still my point stands. The "oral" argument they presented is irrelevant to CST.

[P4guitar]

I think he meant major 3rds on all those chords.

I'll look again.

[GuyBoden]

I have no idea as I'm self-taught. Even back in the day when I developed a CST approach, I knew other notes outside the strict CST recommended scale could work, especially when leading to a scale note. To me, CST is just a scaffolding consisting of "good" notes that I can rely on to flesh out lines.

I've heard some great players that use Chord Scale Theory, most modern players use or were taught CST.

Most methods get you there in the end, but some will take longer than others. IMHO

[pamosmusic]

I don't understand what you've written above. I can't tell from the font on my screen if you're saying dominant or minor. What's your simplified substitution(s)?

Function of my phone.

Barry’s changes are one bar of one, one bar of five, one of one, one of five, one dominant, four dominant, one, five

[Question]

Here is my attempt to play as strictly as I can directly on the changes. Almost no sub-changes except for altered etc..

I would normally play a bit looser over the harmony, but as the OP asked, does (or can) anyone actually play directly on the changes.

I never really liked playing on rhythm changes as it seems a bit too "tonic-heavy" in the A sections.

For some reason I find playing tunes like Giant Steps, where the harmony modulates more often, easier.

Anyway, here is a version of Sonny Rollins' Oleo with playback from Phil Wilkinson.

[AllanAllen]

i - v - i - v
i7 - iv7 - i - v

Peter, I don't think this is right, i is minor.

I think you want

|Bb |F7 |Bb | F7 |
|Bb7 |Eb7 |Bb | F7 |