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I was just wondering to myself today, on the Rhythm Changes A section, which of the greats was playing on every chord of the I VI II V? And who was playing some simpler version? I I V V or something like that?
I obviously need to do some listening. I imagine Lester Young would play a lot of simplified stuff but the beboppers would play more of the changes but maybe not.
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08-01-2025 09:45 AM
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The old swing guys (ex. Lester Young) Would blow blues or just Bb stuff over the A section. I consider Dm(D7), Eb, Eb7, Ediminished, F7, Gm(G7) to all fall under Bb stuff.
As for BeBop, I learned Dexterity and Oleo. I would also say those are Bb stuff.
I dunno... I'm not into labeling everything. I'm sure there is a video of someone analyzing Dexterity or Confirmation on youtube, highlighting all the chord tones. Youtube is actually great for this kind of thing.
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I've been working on Dexterity recently. I've learnt the A section head and most of the B by ear, but decided to cheat on the solo and find out what Bird played. Here's a pretty cool concert-pitch transcription (transposing from the staff vexes my poor old brain for some reason).
What's interesting to me is that for the bit I've learnt so far, Bird is playing a Bb over the Bb/G7 bars, so definitely *not* playing the G7. Which was surprising to me, to be honest. I'd been attempting to lean into the B natural on the second half of each of those bars.
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That's a thing I got from Christiaan Van Hemert, instead of I VI7 ii V, play I I V V.
Originally Posted by CliffR
I think when they start teaching jazz to kids they should say "just know you don't have to play on every single chord". I think there's a Christian Jazz Guitar Scrapbook video about this also.
I wonder if there is an example of someone shredding this over every chord?
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Not me, that’s for sure. Originally Posted by sully75
Okay sometimes … but when I do, it’s almost always more of a set piece line. Like Bb B C C# D over two bars or something.
The more interesting I want to be, the fewer chords I’m playing.
Beauty of Rhythm Changes is that you really can just play Bb. Judicious use of A natural and no one’s the wiser. Throw in an E or Gb in the right spot and you’re cooking.
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I seem to remember both our Christian and Jens Larsen recommending an approach that alternates between changes playing and using the blues scale. I was watching a YouTuber recently who suggested a relentless adherence to outline the chords can sound a bit naff. I'd imagine that, at a high tempo and with such quick changes, this nafness would be even more apparent - if you want to play the chord tones, there's little time left to do anything else. Originally Posted by sully75
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One is of course free to approach Rhythm changes any way one wishes, and there are several viable ways to do it. However I do suggest being able to outline the changes using CST and single lines - it's better to have this ability than not. Many tunes aren't conducive to scalar simplifications, e.g. Giant Steps. Besides, using CST doesn't mean that simplified approaches can't also be employed.
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I assume, given the context, you’re talking about outline each individual chord? Originally Posted by P4guitar
If so … It’s better to have anything than to not have that thing, but sometimes we have to prioritize.
Generally you see folks simplify those chord changes, or outline the G7 and Edim or Ebm in simple and predictable ways. Rather than actually attempt to play a scale sound or even just a full arpeggio over all those chords.
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If anyone has an example of someone hitting every chord in a musical fashion on rhythm changes, I'd love to hear it.
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Yeah someone summed up this problem up really succinctly on another thread (I believe it was djg but can’t find the thread).
something to the effect of “people think you outline changes, but really jazz musicians outline functions.”
and that I think puts it well.
You can scramble to get that Cm7 outlined, but it’s not really doing any work the simplified changes aren’t doing already
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I may be wrong but I thought I read that Joe Pass improvised the blues/rhythm changes lines in his Guitar Style book and they were then transcribed into the studies - and they seem to outline the changes quite faithfully. Doesn't mean he would have played this way on a gig or recording.
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It’s not coming. Best you’ve gotten is people telling you that it’s necessary with no example. Originally Posted by sully75
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Weirdly big subject. My advice is to study some solos.
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Per AI, rhythm changes are often played at 240 bpm and higher. Call it 240. That's 4 beats per second. With two chords per bar you get a half second per chord. Not much time to be thinking about it.
My impression is that good players may think, sometimes, tonic and dominant which means four beats per chord and may otherwise simplify what the player might think about. Harmonic interest may be sustained by the chordal instrument changing the chords while the soloist stays on the first chord of each bar.
Tbh, I don't enjoy playing rhythm changes and I'm not good at it. I can't play or think very fast and I don't enjoy struggling to do it. So, I have a couple of worked-out solos and I use those - because it does come up at jams.
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Well, a b3rd/#9th is commonly played over a dominant chord. Not sure chord tone based lines were a happenin' thing until Trane started doing it on Giant Steps, etc. Originally Posted by CliffR
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I don't think that's entirely correct. I don't have a Rhythm video, but I have an old Giant Steps video and I'm using CST 100% over it. IMO, one can do more with CST than people tend to think. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I don't think anyone particularly disputes that CST is useful, or even that it's useful over rhythm changes. Originally Posted by P4guitar
I think quite a lot about chord scales.
I'm a little skeptical of the notion that someone is going to be thinking about chord scales over every chord in the written changes.
If we call it Bb and F7, then sure, why not? I would chord-scale that up. Bb G7 Cm F7, maybe not so much.
If we're talking about Bb7 to Eb7, then sure, why not? etc.
When we're talking about those rapid fire changes, folks are probably more likely treating those as set pieces with some more set vocabulary. I think that's pretty well supported by bebop heads and transcriptions. Nothing wrong with that -- a lot of the preset vocabulary is awesome. Clifford Brown plays some of those quick turnarounds in his Stompin' At the Savoy and they feel a little bit like sequences he imports in to get a little fire going over those sections.
There's also a huge gray area on a lot of tunes, but rhythm changes maybe more than any other, where the changes themselves are super fluid. Rhythm-a-Ning uses the IV to #iv diminished over the first four bars of the melody, but the solos are over the usual rhythm changes form. Even still, while the bass is cranking through those I VI ii Vs, Charlie Rouse plays mostly with some variations on the melody over it.
So the "nailing every change with CST" thing is a little bit more complicated.
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This? Originally Posted by sully75
https://m.soundcloud.com/user-709514...-192_mixdown-2
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Sure, but given the B natural is one of the features of the harmony, and not diatonic to the prevailing key, I'd expect it to be emphasised not ignored. As for chord tone based lines not being a thing, maybe you have a more specific definition in mind than me? I mean, Parker uses chord tones *all the time* in his solos. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Look a the beginning of his solo on Dexterity here:
Bar 34 ends with what seems to me a descending Cm arpeggios with an added 13 (happy to hear a more accurate description of that chord) over an F7/Cm harmony. Bar 35's second half is a G7b9. Bar 36 begins with an EbM7, an arpeggio of the third of the underlying Cm7 chord. Etc etc.Last edited by CliffR; 08-03-2025 at 08:41 AM.
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Re the b natural
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Ha! Thanks boss. I'll have to re-watch this. But in today's version of Bird's solo on Dexterity, he is indeed playing the B natural Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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If you can’t be bothered to watch the the videos,Barry said that Charlie Parker early in his career didn’t play the B natural/G7 at all and later on only in bar 3
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I'm watching it right now! But that fits with what I noticed on the Dexterity take I posted earlier (actually described as 'take 2') where initially he plays the Bb but later in the solo switches to the B natural. Kind of reminds me of his delaying playing the b7 on a blues until the fourth bar, although I realise functionally they're different. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
(To be clear, here I'm talking about his solos, not the heads.)Last edited by CliffR; 08-03-2025 at 09:12 AM.
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Yet it's my modus operandi. I can't do it for everything, but it's always my starting point. People seem to be intimidated by this, but it's quite doable for most tunes. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Yes, it's harder, but sounds better IMO. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Another point not mentioned in this thread: CST is a must have in the tool box for solo guitar. It provides harmonic and melodic options that I believe are superior to reductionist approaches. I'm curious how people who don't use CST play solo guitar over tunes.
In short, all I'm trying to say is that CST is well worth the investment.
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Right and I’m just trying to saying that addressing the individual chords by way of CST one at a time is not really the way most musicians have addressed Rhythm Changes historically Originally Posted by P4guitar
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