Rhythm Changes A section, who is playing on each chord?

[James W]

That's a fusion album, no? Playing Mahavishnu stuff? I know JM can do that amazingly..

No, it's with Joey DeFrancesco and Dennis Chambers playing straight ahead.

Here's a sample -

P.S I love After The Rain too.

[sully75]

No, it's with Joey DeFrancesco and Dennis Chambers playing straight ahead.

Here's a sample -

P.S I love After The Rain too.

yeah maybe my ears are broken but I really don't like it. It almost sounds out of tune to me. I never get it. The feel is jumpy, lines are mumbly and rambling. I'd much prefer hearing Adam Rogers in this situation instead.

I'm not worthy to wash the guys feet but the straight ahead playing I really can't stand. I've listened to Shakti recordings on youtube more than anything else in the last couple years...I absolutely love that.

[Christian Miller]

No, it's with Joey DeFrancesco and Dennis Chambers playing straight ahead.

Here's a sample -

P.S I love After The Rain too.

Love it. It’s not a standard approach but irs totally him and I think it swings.

I feel like Johnny Mac went through a bit of a grant green phase early on although I’m not sure he ever sounded like a conventional bebop rooted player?

I hear him almost as a sort of blues and r&b player who side slipped into jazz later, but tbh I don’t know. I understand he was playing a lot of vibey mod friendly music early on in london during the 60s. The mods liked a bit of blue note especially the organ trios. But that’s more on the populist side of modern jazz and it’s all about the blues and groove.

I’d love to know more about how his thinking and approach to music developed.

Also Joey such a badass. So much missed.


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[James W]

Love it. It’s not a standard approach but irs totally him and I think it swings.

I feel like Johnny Mac went through a bit of a grant green phase early on although I’m not sure he ever sounded like a conventional bebop rooted player?

I hear him almost as a sort of blues and r&b player who side slipped into jazz later, but tbh I don’t know. I understand he was playing a lot of vibey mod friendly music early on in london during the 60s. The mods liked a bit of blue note especially the organ trios. But that’s more on the populist side of modern jazz and it’s all about the blues and groove.

I’d love to know more about how his thinking and approach to music developed.

Also Joey such a badass. So much missed.


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Yeah this is the best I can do regarding his bop playing back in the day -

I think he got into jazz in his teens but was combining it quite early in his career... Generally aside from a few anomalies such as playing Some day My Prince... With Chick Corea and the aforementioned records with Joey he has eschewed playing standards however he often likes to play a blues or a modified blues, a recurrent tendency throughout his career. There is also a So What contrafact on his recent album Liberation Time.

I too would like to know more about his development. I have a very thorough book about his early career called Bathed In Lightning. It's good, chock-full of info about the scene he was a part of, though probably wish there was more input from the man himself. I admit to skipping parts of it that were only tenuously relevant...

[sully75]

Yeah this is the best I can do regarding his bop playing back in the day -

I think he got into jazz in his teens but was combining it quite early in his career... Generally aside from a few anomalies such as playing Some day My Prince... With Chick Corea and the aforementioned records with Joey he has eschewed playing standards however he often likes to play a blues or a modified blues, a recurrent tendency throughout his career. There is also a So What contrafact on his recent album Liberation Time.

I too would like to know more about his development. I have a very thorough book about his early career called Bathed In Lightning. It's good, chock-full of info about the scene he was a part of, though probably wish there was more input from the man himself. I admit to skipping parts of it that were only tenuously relevant...

That's pretty nice bop playing. Sorta sounds nothing like what he'd sound like shortly afterwards with Miles, there was one bluesy phrase that kind of reminded me of some of the Miles playing.

In my head my thesis is the stuff that makes McLaughlin great, the explorations in Indian music in particular, made him not great for playing straight ahead. It forced him into directions technically that he isn't able to get out of when changes come around.

I do really love the Coltrane Changes thing Do You Hear the Voices You Left Behind on Electric Guitarist. I would love to hear more of that. But it still is kind of an over the top style of playing. That album has always killed IMO.

[Christian Miller]

That's pretty nice bop playing. Sorta sounds nothing like what he'd sound like shortly afterwards with Miles, there was one bluesy phrase that kind of reminded me of some of the Miles playing.

In my head my thesis is the stuff that makes McLaughlin great, the explorations in Indian music in particular, made him not great for playing straight ahead. It forced him into directions technically that he isn't able to get out of when changes come around.

I do really love the Coltrane Changes thing Do You Hear the Voices You Left Behind on Electric Guitarist. I would love to hear more of that. But it still is kind of an over the top style of playing. That album has always killed IMO.

That’s funny I was thinking how uniquely like him it was sounding.

The tone is much more traditional. And he does use some bop devices, passing tones etc.

He didn’t get the rapid picking thing together until a little later apparently


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[James W]

He didn’t get the rapid picking thing together until a little later apparently

Possibly. This is from the next year - 1968 - and includes some rapid picking -

[James W]

Actually - this is from the same session as 'Celia' above and it shows he could handle a decent tempo at this stage, though not sure if it would be considered 'rapid picking' -

[sully75]

That’s funny I was thinking how uniquely like him it was sounding.

The tone is much more traditional. And he does use some bop devices, passing tones etc.

He didn’t get the rapid picking thing together until a little later apparently


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On 2nd listen, I still don't hear much. A certain angularity and anxious phrasing and maybe some blues sensibility.

But I'd be much more likely to believe that was some journeyman West coast guitar player who hung around with Gerry Mulligan than John McLaughlin.

[sully75]

Actually - this is from the same session as 'Celia' above and it shows he could handle a decent tempo at this stage, though not sure if it would be considered 'rapid picking' -

Some embryonic JM there.

I know if JM had his whole picking style together even when he was with Miles...I kinda thought it was after studying Indian music but I'm just guessing.

This is the track I'm talking about...this to me is JM playing changes most effectively.

[James W]

Yeah he already had mega picking chops prior to playing with Miles. Just listen to the title track of Extrapolation - and the whole thing while you're at it cos it's f#*&ing amazing. And yeah Do You Hear The Voices... is also amazing, that's an uneven album though, I generally prefer the second half of it.

[Christian Miller]

What? He was exercising restraint on Bitches Brew! Literally impossible!

I remember listening to Extrapolation years ago and not really noticing the pick mayhem compared to Live Evil, but I think JM had been touring with Mahavihnu at that point …

Will listen again at some point

(Am I the only person who isn’t that into JM’s playing on Live Evil compared to the other Miles albums? Maybe it’s the recording.)

I think it’s clear that when Miles had the option to get players like George Benson in his band it was JMs inclination to bridge the worlds of Trane and Jimi Hendrix that made him of interest.

He didn’t want a bebop virtuoso, and I think that’s borne out by all the guitarists he chose … Which started with the rock era really. Although he was also a big fan of Charlie Christian I’m not sure he was interested in jazz guitar per se.

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[James W]

What? He was exercising restraint on Bitches Brew! Literally impossible!

I remember listening to Extrapolation years ago and not really noticing the pick mayhem compared to Live Evil, but I think JM had been touring with Mahavihnu at that point …

Nah he was with Tony Williams' group when he joined Miles for the Cellar Door gigs.

Am I the only person who isn’t that into JM’s playing on Live Evil compared to the other Miles albums?

Well you won't be surprised to know I love his playing on Live Evil. Also this, his solo here never made it onto Live Evil but it's wonderful. JM + wah = bliss -

[Christian Miller]

Nah he was with Tony Williams' group when he joined Miles for the Cellar Door gigs.




Well you won't be surprised to know I love his playing on Live Evil. Also this, his solo here never made it onto Live Evil but it's wonderful. JM + wah = bliss -

Well I haven’t listened to that for about 15 years haha. Was obsessed with the CD sessions at one point.

And I’m still not that into the guitar on it tbh sorry! I sort of agree with Keith Jarrett on this, as much as I hate to say that.


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[Christian Miller]

Tribute to Jack Johnson otoh changed my flipping life

Tbh I’m only just getting back to the electric jazz mayhem now as a player… given it was the 70s Miles stuff that I used to listen to all the time. I took a weird detour into swing and trad then standards and bebop. Not entirely sure why, but that’s the way it goes sometimes. I’m also playing tenor banjo lol.

I mean I played a gig doing Paul Desmond stuff with a guy the other night - beautiful sound on sax, me behaving myself on es 175, and he told me his favourite Miles record was Dark Magus. It’s funny.


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[James W]

Tribute to Jack Johnson otoh changed my flipping life

Tbh I’m only just getting back to the electric jazz mayhem now as a player… given it was the 70s Miles stuff that I used to listen to all the time. I took a weird detour into swing and trad then standards and bebop. Not entirely sure why, but that’s the way it goes sometimes. I’m also playing tenor banjo lol.

I mean I played a gig doing Paul Desmond stuff with a guy the other night - beautiful sound on sax, me behaving myself on es 175, and he told me his favourite Miles record was Dark Magus. It’s funny.


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Heh nice. Yeah I love Jack Johnson too. It's good to know about all eras of jazz...

Just to bring us back on topic a bit, here is the only example we have I think of JM doing rhythm changes, if I'm not mistaken -