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I’ve been learning and playing jazz for 4 years and still get a blank mind feeling when I want to solo. I know some theory, in fact I feel like I've focused too much on theory but then I'm unable to execute it.
I started experimenting with the idea of sketching guides for each standard, like for each chord I would have specific scales notes I "could play", and that has really helped me at least sounding decent sometimes, and feeling more relaxed. So I made a tool (i.e. a webapp) that highlights the chords of the song you're playing as fast or slow as I want, and also shows a suggested scale for each chord at the right time.
I haven't seen a thread here about apps to help improvise, but for me this has been really helpful to stop overthinking and focus on the swing rather then on "allowable notes" or whatever. I use it for guitar and piano actually.
I'm curious to whether this happens to anyone else, what approach you take in this situation, and if this is totally wrong and I should find a better way around the issue? I'd also like to share the app if anyone's interested but I'm unsure whether that'd be against the rules.
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06-25-2025 11:08 PM
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I also share that "blank mind feeling" and am working thru the same dilemma. There is no single answer here and if there was, we'd have a planet full of great improvisers. I've worked thru arpeggio approaches rather than scales after really getting the melody down. No understanding of the melody means hunting and pecking.
Easiest first step for me is to embellish the melody with chromatic notes and enclosures. Lately, I've been trying pivot arpeggios to expand the sound. But I really have come to believe that if you spent some time really listening (intentional listening rather than recreational listening) to 2-3 good and even simple versions of the tunes by others (not necessarily guitar players-Ella is a great example- her scatting is real improv), you do come to internalize a bit more possibilities. And I even download and slow down some solos (most recently, Patrick Bartley's solo on After You've Gone), to steal a lick or two (and use it on as many tunes as I can) and understand what he is doing. I've avoided transcribing only because I haven't found I take much away from it.
That's my story right now. It's a journey. Whatever keeps you on the path is the way.
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Major scale five positions, truly actually know it. You want to wake up at 4am from a dead sleep and be able to play the thing, any key, any note any position, know it like you know your name.
Once you know the map, you won't be lost anymore. The best app for this is the power button, turn off your phone and sit yer butt down with the guitar and a freaking wall. Stumble through stuff for a year or two with other people and you'll slowly get better. Learn bebop vocabulary, by ear or from real book sheets, of Parker, Dizzy, Monk, and Clifford Brown heads. Play the bebop stuff over Ellington and Goodman tunes.
Anyway, that's what has worked for me. I wasn't lost with a blank mind, I didn't even know what the road was, let alone where to go.
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I think your approach to improvisation is the issue.
Focus on vocabulary. Learn to apply small bits of vocabulary over chord progressions and repeat until you can do it without thought. Rinse and repeat.
Improvisation and scales and so on can come later.
You might find Moises useful for this.
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I would agree with that. And also this, I think:
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I usually like the idea of working on the mapping stuff alongside the vocabulary stuff, but I do always find myself wishing I’d weighted the vocabulary stuff more heavily. So it’s also a thing we tend to sort of forget about or think we can skirt around for a while. It’s definitely not. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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A few things you're missing, and that many developing jazz players miss.
1. Nothing wrong with theory, but it must be worked out to where you have command of it in your technique. You don't see a chord and think of a scale to go with it, and then go and realize music. It needs to be worked out beforehand. Same as if you want to speak a language you don't go up to someone with a list of 1000 words and expect to be fluent.
2. Nothing wrong with theory, but it must be applied. Base theory is essential for learning the foundation, but you must go deeper and apply it in more musical ways. If you can't make up ideas spontaneously, then take the tune and make stuff up slowly until you can play it fluently.
3. Don't forget actual vocab. This is key for becoming musical. It's good to have command of raw theory to make your own stuff up, but you need to work on vocab, or you won't advance as well to being fully musical. Transcribe stuff as you can, and you can read stuff, or do video tutorials.
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What exactly have you been playing for 4 years? Originally Posted by Minzynator
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I agree with everyone saying to work on vocabulary. Ultimately you don't want your solo to sound like scales, you want it to sound like jazz. Just abstractly having a scale tied to a chord isn't going to do that, you need to know (and more importantly, hear) how scales and arpeggios are used to create the jazz vocabulary that you like.
Maybe the most basic step towards this is to listen to jazz deeply. Pick a song with a solo you like and just listen to it to the point you can sing along with the solo. Then pick a part of the solo that you really like (maybe just a few bar phrase) and figure it out on guitar. The more you ingrain the language in your ears, and then associate it with the guitar, the more natural it will become to use it in a solo.
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Totally relate, that blank mind feeling is real, especially when you've internalized a lot of theory but haven't fully connected it to instinctive playing yet. Your idea of sketching guide tones and using a visual tool sounds like a great bridge between theory and feel, not wrong at all, just part of finding your way in.
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Essentially learning the harmony and melody of popular standards (ie autumn leaves, blue bossa, all of me, stella by starlight, etc) and then embellishing the melody with some improvised phrases. The problem is 1) I can't really improvise for several bars, for example, and 2) when I just improvise without thinking I lose track of the harmony and it stops resembling the tune entirely. So basically I'm at the point where I can play the songs and improvise a little but would never go to an open jam session. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Wow this got so many replies in such a short time. Thank you all! Sometimes it feels like it's harder than it should be, so I assume I'm doing something wrong, but from these replies I guess in the end it all boils down to studying by listening carefully and repeating
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That's encouraging, thank you. It does make me enjoy my sessions better than before and develop a better feel for swinging. If you'd like to try the app it's jazzbuddy.app. It's not perfect but it does the trick lol Originally Posted by Cal45m
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I totally relate to where you are at. At least for now, after being able to sing the melody, play the melody and know the chords, I go back and break the song down into manageable chunks- like the first 4-8 bars. I slow each chunk down, really down to say 60-80 bpm and go over it until I'm going crazy- playing the melody, the embellished melody, and then I try to incorporate a bit of a solo I like- again, for only a very short section- until it is second nature. Then I add an additional 4-8 bars and finish, say the A section.
It is laborious but I am hoping it will come faster over time. Also, I have become hyper-aware of when I am hunting an pecking and stop that. "They" say that you should be communicating something to the listener- kind of like, speaking a sentence.
Hang in there. And find a buddy to play with if you can who has the patience to be your human looper! I'm still looking for one.
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You should ABSOLUTELY get to an open session Originally Posted by Minzynator
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Still there? Sorry, didn't see this. Originally Posted by Minzynator
Well, first of all most of these standards are repetitive, as in the AABA form. You don't have to learn four different verses.
So you learn the tune and chords, which is necessary, then you say you have to embellish the melody. That is certainly one way to do it but actually very few jazz solos stick to the tune. What matters more is the harmonies and the phrasing.
If, for example, the chords go CM7/Am7 - Dm7/G7 you need your improv to convey those sounds. If you insist on, or are bound to, the idea of always just imitating the tune then you're going to run out of ideas pretty soon.
So, first, forget always following the melody, you don't need to. But that doesn't mean you go all over the place. Your rhythm and phrases must be in keeping with the tune otherwise, as you say, it sounds like you're playing a different tune.
Then you need to know how to follow the chords. That's a little trickier. Are you working out, or borrowing, definite licks and phrases which you remember and then repeat them over the chords? What happens when your memory fails? So the other thing to do is never play by rote, except when you're playing the melody and even then play it with some freedom and expression.
So the idea is to have a way of conveying the movement of the chords which isn't fixed, remembered and then regurgitated. Improvisation means playing on the fly but not rigidly. And you have to find out how to do that.
Usually the safest way is to use the chords themselves as a basis, not the tune. You have both the chord tones, i.e. the arpeggio, and the notes of a relevant scale. Then you have the tools to create lines as you see fit.
Obviously that means knowing your stuff pretty well. So get a tune, something simple, and work it out. If you're not sure, look it up. After all, it's much like writing something here on the forum. When you wrote your post above you just wrote it, right? You speak English, you know the words and all that, and just said what you wanted to say.
It's the same with guitar improv. Know the chords, know what goes with them, and play what you hear and feel inwardly. Then there's nothing to remember, it just comes out.
And, yes, I know it's easier said than done. So begin now, right away, and see what happens.
Just as an example, here's Chet Baker doing Autumn Leaves. Ignore how fast it is, it doesn't matter. I can practically guarantee that if you heard this solo without knowing what it was you wouldn't know it was Autumn leaves. He's just playing the harmonies.
Also, see how few accidentals there are. He only puts them in when the chord demands it, like playing the F# over D7 or using a sharp or flat as a passing or connecting note. Do get the point of all this, and good luck.
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If at all possible, I think you'd be better off finding someone to jam with (e.g., another guitar player or pianist) who is at a similar level to and push out going an open jam as a later goal. Open jams can be pretty daunting for relative beginners, and they don't really give much opportunity to work on the things you're actually trying to work on (because you'd likely be playing a tune called by someone else, and not taking a whole lot of choruses). Absent (or in addition to) a practice/jamming partner, iReal and/or youtube backing tracks are actually quite useful for practicing keeping the form. So is recording/looping your own rhythm guitar track and playing against that. Originally Posted by Minzynator
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I completely disagree, find a jam and talk to the host band, tell them you’re new, and nervous and request a tune you are comfortable with. A blues is fine for this.
If they’ve got any brains they’ll be kind and accommodate you, and you’ll come back next time. Jams only last as long as people keep coming.
You can’t expect to go up at a jam the first time and play a song you don’t know by ear. That’s an un-achievable expectation.
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Depends where you live I expect.
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Yeah for sure. Remembering that John A lives in New York. He’s probably right about that. There are some spots that are very welcoming to casual players but you have to know where to look. And many that are not. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Then again where I live now the session is very open to all comers. Just knowing how to talk … call your song in the key you play it in, be ready to play the melody if you called it. That’s kind of it.
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Thats not the expectation. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
The expectation is that you already know the tunes.
DUN dun dunnn
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Also not realistic to wait until you know the 200 or so tunes the band plays before going up. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
If someone is too chicken to go to the host and say “hey I’m new, can we do blue Bossa?” They might as well take up fishing.
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Right but what I’m saying is that it IS the expectation at some sessions in big markets. Whether or not it’s reasonable isn’t the point. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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As Peter and Christian note, it does depend on where you are and what jams you're talking about. Some scenes are more accommodating and friendly than others. That said, I still think that if you're at the level where you can't yet keep forms straight and aren't yet confident that you can blow for more than a few bars (which is how the OP describes his skill level) it might be more constructive to play with others in a more casual setting a bit before trying a public jam. I'm not saying don't ever go to a public session. I'm just suggesting a path for building up the requisite skills a bit. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Getting lost in a tune is a common problem when learning to improvise. Like other musical skills, learning to keep your place within a tune is a specific skill that you can practice to get better at it.
- Learn the song form, practice hearing that form, and practice knowing where you are in the tune. Do this first as a listener, then as a player.
- Listen to the tune and map out the overall form, such as verse verse chorus verse, and then map out the form of the melody itself within the verse, chorus and bridge.
- Then, as you listen to the tune, ask yourself "What's next?" That is, "what's the next melodic idea? what's the next chord? Am I in the first, second or third A of an AABA form?" The idea is to know where you are in the song form at any time. At first, this is very hard to do. If you work at it consciously and consistently, it becomes nearly impossible to get lost. Your internal clock doesn't just feel the groove, it feels the form of the song.
- Playing along with a backing track is a great way to improve your ability to internalize song form, because the backing track never gets lost :-)
- If you know some other players at your level, you can get together to jam on tunes and "keep each other honest" about the song form. That is, if someone gets lost on form while soloing, stop the band and ask everyone where they think they are in the tune. Not everyone might be on the same page! But there's a good likelihood that you'll find some consensus if everyone isn't totally lost. Once you have your bearings, restart the jam with the idea of everyone keeping their place by focusing on the lesson learned in the previous discussion.
- A public jam is NOT the place to show up and get lost in a tune. That's not fun for the other players or for the audience. Wait till you're ready. You'll know when! - It's also said that only 30% of what you can do in the practice room makes it to the stage. You get a chance to sit in at a local jam or with a friend's band and suddenly you've got a bad case of CRS (Can't Remember Sh--), the sound onstage is completely different than your cozy practice room (maybe you can't hear yourself at all!), you're a bit nervous, some drunk is talking LOUDLY in the front row WHILE THE BAND IS PLAYING, and the list of distractions goes on and on... It's OK. We've all been there! Playing under less-than-ideal condtions is another skill, and they way to master it is to just keep doing it. Nothing like public humiliation to make you go home and practice your a-- off! The strategy here is to overprepare so that you're still able to play somewhat competently when you encounter difficulties.
HTH
SJ
- Learn the song form, practice hearing that form, and practice knowing where you are in the tune. Do this first as a listener, then as a player.
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I've been playing a session or two a week (jams, but sometimes working on charts) for a couple of decades.
I know the most common tunes from memory and I'm familiar with a zillion others although I'd need a chart to play them well.
With all of that time in, I still find open jams uncomfortable and I avoid them.
Here are a few reasons why.
1. Everything is in a rush. My sound requires a pedalboard, so I end up having to set it up in a rush on a dark bandstand.
2. Usually, you use the house amp, and you may not be able to stand near it. Meaning, you can't control your amp's sound. For me, playing with somebody else's sound is like playing with somebody else's hands.
3. It's usually too loud and, often, too invariant. If you want to begin your solo quietly, it will be lost. Anything subtle you try, even when comping, will probably be buried. This might not be true in every jam, but it was in the last few I tried. In that situation, I may have to stop playing to put in earplugs.
4. You don't find out what your solo sound will be until the first note of your solo. It's probably not going to be what you're used to. Good luck.
5. There's an argument that this is great preparation for gigs, which can include some of the same problems. But, OTOH, you probably need a lot more than two tunes a week to progress sufficiently.
6. You might not get to count-in your own call. Probably you would, but not necessarily. Which means you might end up having to play something at an uncomfortable tempo.
7. Sometimes you get to stay on the bandstand for longer. Then you won't be calling the tunes and you might not know them. At that point, you may be thinking about reading it off your phone, but there may not be any place to put your phone down.
Anyway, my experience of open jams is mostly frustration.
The sessions I referred to are all by invitation and, even with some pretty accomplished players, feel safe and calm. I may have been slower than most, but it took me a very long time and a couple 1000 hours of sessions to get to a point where I get called for gigs.
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