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Sounds like fun. Haven't tried that sort of thing. I can appreciate why someone might want to encourage budding players to go outside of their usual parameters even if it doesn't sound perfect.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Sometimes we do things where you change key halfway through an ABAC tune (the Bill Evans thing), or you are in 4 for the A section and 3 for the bridge, and stuff like that. Or just do the tune in a funny key. Keeps the brain alive. I'm always up for it.
Anything to mix it up.
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07-08-2025 03:20 PM
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Yeah I don’t remember if that was an actual thing. But that sort of thing. Alright we’re doing A Train but we’re doing the Stablemates thing on all the ii-Vs. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Just that sort of thing. A lot of weird chromatic things. A lot of dissonant backcycles.
It was fun and weird
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By that logic, so is this Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Another You, but in the solos we start on E7 and cycle back to the Cm in bar 5.
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It does sound fun, but also what’s the stablemates thing? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Well ... intention matters a little bit. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
For example ... the Another You thing would be some weird junk people are doing for fun.
Are we playing D7 to Db7 as an artistic choice or because it's in the fifth edition of the Real Book or something?
But also there's some performance practice stuff. Being silly with the changes is common with American Songbook tunes that, by their nature, have to be adapted from their original structure to suit performance in a jazz group. Being silly with the changes Shorter (or Monk, or Jobim, or Herbie) wrote into a tune they intend to be played in a jazz setting is a bit of a different thing.
Reharmonizing stuff like that or substituting chords or whatever isn't unheard of, but you'd want to make sure you're kind of adding something or making an intentional artistic decision, so it's a little less common.
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Those two fives moving quick in ascending or descending half steps. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Em7 A7 - Ebm7 Ab7 - Db
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Oh cool, I know that as a Woody ‘n You thing, or pent up house. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Do those use that move? Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Sometimes happens in the bridge to Woody N You and I guess pentup house moves the I instead of the ii V. But I think this is more turnaround stuff that’s flexible.
I feel like everything is a turnaround.
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Oh okay, yeah the Pent Up House thing with the last notes of that phrase is a little side-slip against the tonic. So that's a different thing. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Not sure about Woody'n You, but I don't doubt it. It's a pretty common hard-bop move for spicing up the ii-Vs. Maybe where it has those quick repeated ii-Vs in the bridge. Honestly I don't know that one all that well.
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I always associated those kinds of moves with the Stablemates thing because Benny Golson used that stuff everywheeerrreeee ... Stablemates, Along Came Betty, Killer Joe, etc.
Coltrane liked it in his functional phases -- Lazy Bird a bit, Moment's Notice definitely.
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- Heinrich Schenker Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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You can hear the ii-V thing in the bridge in this version, although McCoy is really just playing the ii.
Although it's a little different than stablemates because it's
|ii (V)|#ii (#V)|ii (V)| I |
But I guess bars 2-4 are stablemates.
(This post is really just an excuse to further drift the thread and post a track from possibly my favorite McCoy record).
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This is an interesting and timely conversation, and I've been following it on and off since it started. It has drifted from the topic of improvisation a bit, but in a relatively positive way. It seems that the OP has taken a break, perhaps understandably, and I hope they are well.
What's valuable about a thread like this is its diversity of viewpoints, the sharing of our wisdoms and experiences, as well as proclivities and problems. It's all good and useful.
I agree with much of what was said so far. Knowing your fretboard and some theory, listening to jazz deeply, becoming familiar with tunes and idioms, using a looper or app, playing with others or even venturing out to participate in a jam session. And I think that many of us may have also perhaps even felt the discomfort of getting lost while playing on stage. So, while we're all on our own journeys, there's a lot of common ground here.
What I found myself thinking, and maybe I missed something or it's implied without saying, is why to learn this, why go through all this, what is the end goal (if any) of it? Without reflecting on that, then I think our own assumptions can be writ large into the conversation. While that can be exceptionally valuable, it's also not for everybody.
Speaking only for myself at this point, I think the assumption and goal are clear. To me, in addition to being an improvisational music, jazz is a kind of social music. So learning jazz and improvisation mean being part of a social scene that involves people playing music with one another. It seems evident that the ecology of such a scene is dependent upon the expectations of others and there may also be socio-cultural dimensions involved.
To participate in the social scene where I live, which doesn't necessarily evolve around entertaining an audience, I needed to develop a basic level of competency. As soon as I gained some competency, I wanted to continue, to be a part of jazz as a social activity.
This eventually evolved into being a regular at the venues that hold open jams. There are currently five within reasonable driving distance of where I live in Japan (about which I've written elsewhere). Participating informally involves knowing the preferences of the scene (what tunes get called, the expectations in skill level, whether a jam is managed by a host band or if it is self-managed, etc.). While my experience is limited (I've only gone to jams here and to a few in Dallas and New Orleans), what I can say is that through participating for several years, my ability to improvise has noticeably improved but I'm also having fun.
Regarding the drawbacks with open jams, we have some here, too. For example, all the venues have backline amps. While I can bring an amp, it can be a hassle so I've gotten used to the various amps available. One venue asks participants to get on and off stage quickly as a courtesy to other players, so I've learned to streamline my transitions. I just bring a guitar, clip-on tuner, cable, and copies of the books prevalent at these jams (here, it's the 2 volume "Jazz Standard Bible," akin to the Real Book). It's fine to read on stage, music stands are not frowned upon, although the jam can be more fun and interesting if everyone doesn't need to read. In general, the atmospheres are welcoming, even toward beginners and newcomers, to whom experienced and regular players show openness.
The first open jam session that I went to was after practicing improvisation for a couple of years with a looper. I think my initial tunes were All the Things You Are, Autumn Leaves and Just Friends. I found out about two venues from a work colleague's husband (who played tenor sax semi-professionally). So I went to each several times. No guitar or any expectation to play, just to hang out, make note of the tunes, follow along in the JSB, and have some coffee or tea. One time, when the tenor player was there, he invited me up on stage to play the three tunes mentioned above, and the house master kindly lent me his guitar. I got through the tunes with no major train wrecks (although just barely, because Just Friends was faster than I was used to). I went to the other venue on my own, with my JSB in hand but still no guitar, to watch and hang out. One night, someone had a T-shirt with a NYC subway map on it (my hometown), which led to conversation (my Japanese was poor, but we managed to communicate and, most importantly, it put a name to the new face). I went there again the following week, this time with my guitar, and after a few tunes the house master asked if I would like to join to play a tune. I stepped up and called one of the above mentioned tunes (I refer to those tunes as "jam session staples"). Years later, now well-known at all five venues, I've jammed (and even sat in on a few gigs) with some of the better regional players, as well as countless avid amateurs such as myself.
I would not trade that social experience for anything, and it's what motivates my practice time at home, learning tunes well enough to step up and enjoy playing jazz with others. Using a looper or iReal, I first learn the melody in 2 or 3 registers, then shell voicings to comp, slowly bringing it all up to a reasonable tempo, while working on improvisation. I also pick ten versions of a tune I'm learning to get a sense of how others approached it.
That brings us back to the OP's original concern, to learn improvisation, and about which there is already a wealth of advice. In my case, I'm mostly in the "vary the melody" camp, but I also do like to go beyond that when appropriate. Playing on stage with others has really sharpened my ear and helped me to become more alert, it has improved my time and to be responsive to how a tune unfolds with others, and it especially helped me to be confident; all of these in ways using apps didn't. So, I highly recommend jams, if possible.
A few other random observations, though I'm afraid this is becoming verbose. As another improvisational music, blues is in a way a common ground, as seen in the clip above of Eric Clapton sitting in with Wynton Marsalis. It's a common ground here, too, (so is funk), in my humble corner of the world. Some venues prefer more fusiony kinds of tunes, which can be fun to improvise upon, but for me that's not as interesting as playing the melody and changes of the GAS standards. Other venues seem to prefer Bossa Nova, or Hard Bop (my favorite genre). In the midst of all this, there have been moments that taught me a lesson to not comp blindly, nor too loudly, while others are improvising, and especially not if there's a pianist or during a bass solo. I think learning by doing while in a practical and welcoming live setting provided valuable lessons. I invite my jazz curious students to jams, which is gaining traction, particularly among Gen Z students. And I try to help them find their way if they would like to learn jazz, just like others here have helped me to learn.
Wherever your diverse improvisational adventures might take you, I wish you all the best!
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