Apps to help learn improvisation over jazz standards?

[Christian Miller]

One thing that was very useful to me when I was starting was a weekly get together with about ten to fifteen musicians where we'd work on some tunes with a tutor. We'd have a jam and play the tunes. It got me into the basics.

[ragman1]

These jazz jam sessions sound more like a torture session to me. Definitely.

[rpjazzguitar]

One thing that was very useful to me when I was starting was a weekly get together with about ten to fifteen musicians where we'd work on some tunes with a tutor. We'd have a jam and play the tunes. It got me into the basics.

A great way to do it. Some of my early bands hired coaches from time to time, which was helpful. Some of my recent bands have hired well known players to do pretty much the same thing. Our experience with that has been uniformly excellent.

I also took combo classes at the local jazzschool for years. Extremely helpful -- and the jams provided an opportunity to try out the new ideas.

[AllanAllen]

As Peter and Christian note, it does depend on where you are and what jams you're talking about. Some scenes are more accommodating and friendly than others. That said, I still think that if you're at the level where you can't yet keep forms straight and aren't yet confident that you can blow for more than a few bars (which is how the OP describes his skill level) it might be more constructive to play with others in a more casual setting a bit before trying a public jam. I'm not saying don't ever go to a public session. I'm just suggesting a path for building up the requisite skills a bit.

Yeah, I would hope he’s not going to the jam at Smalls for his first experience.

But after four years, you should be able to hang at some kind of jam.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, I would hope he’s not going to the jam at Smalls for his first experience.

Well sure. But the same way you might tell someone from a big market that they can’t just assume there are going to be killer musicians populating every session in a small town — a musician in a big market might tell you that you can’t expect there to be a welcoming environment in every session. Smalls is a cliche, but I went to very very welcoming sessions and still saw John McNeil rip a kid up and down for not giving John’s reharm a fair shake on There Will Never Be Another You**

Any good session — no matter how welcoming — should have some element of tough love. If someone comes up and calls a tune they don’t know, or can’t make it through a blues, I probably will tell them that. Other people did that for me, and it’s a positive thing, even if it feels bad. That’s not the same thing as going out there to cut people, which is dumb and has also happened to me and I don’t think is terribly productive. But you don’t want to confuse the two. I think personally that going out and getting told what’s what a few times is a Rip the Band Aid sort of situation, but I’m open to the idea that someone might not feel ready for that too.

But after four years, you should be able to hang at some kind of jam.

A buddy of mine has his three cardinal rules of teaching anything.

1. it’s not about you
2. high expectations and positive reinforcement
3. meet them where they are.

The first isn’t really relevant here. But the second and third are. It’s really hard to balance high expectations (you CAN play at a session, I know you can and I expect you to) with the reality of where a person is. By which I mean, if you find yourself saying that a person “should” be able to do anything, then you’re venturing into counterproductive territory. People “should” be able to do exactly what they’ve practiced and worked on as compared to their individual goals and blah blah etc etc.

So when you switch it up, and say “You can” play a session, then it’s suddenly a concrete assertion … well … can he? Does he have the skills? Is that the way to get them? Maybe, on all counts.

** John always called absolute babies first jazz tune standards, and would call some weird little reharms on them. If you sounded terrible he’d give you a little pat on the back and have a good natured laugh at your expense. If you smoked it but didn’t play his reharm, he’d dress you down on the bandstand.

[emanresu]

That blank face was the reason for me giving up for years - having memorized the chords, played over and over minding them for days, and still
getting the blank face was so depressing that I dropped jazz completely. I thought I was too stupid for this.

Anyway, that blank face disappeared when I just listened a progression over and over and hummed something along. During car rides or somesuch.
I knew the chords of all the segments just fine - but that way the aural memory started to take over. Like, when actually got lost, then "this feels like that part".
But getting lost happened less and less this way.

The point is, watching a chord sheet and playing by that makes the abstract/visual memory be the boss - and aural the minion. Got to switch it around.

[AllanAllen]

Well sure. But the same way you might tell someone from a big market that they can’t just assume there are going to be killer musicians populating every session in a small town — a musician in a big market might tell you that you can’t expect there to be a welcoming environment in every session. Smalls is a cliche, but I went to very very welcoming sessions and still saw John McNeil rip a kid up and down for not giving John’s reharm a fair shake on There Will Never Be Another You**

Any good session — no matter how welcoming — should have some element of tough love. If someone comes up and calls a tune they don’t know, or can’t make it through a blues, I probably will tell them that. Other people did that for me, and it’s a positive thing, even if it feels bad. That’s not the same thing as going out there to cut people, which is dumb and has also happened to me and I don’t think is terribly productive. But you don’t want to confuse the two. I think personally that going out and getting told what’s what a few times is a Rip the Band Aid sort of situation, but I’m open to the idea that someone might not feel ready for that too.



A buddy of mine has his three cardinal rules of teaching anything.

1. it’s not about you
2. high expectations and positive reinforcement
3. meet them where they are.

The first isn’t really relevant here. But the second and third are. It’s really hard to balance high expectations (you CAN play at a session, I know you can and I expect you to) with the reality of where a person is. By which I mean, if you find yourself saying that a person “should” be able to do anything, then you’re venturing into counterproductive territory. People “should” be able to do exactly what they’ve practiced and worked on as compared to their individual goals and blah blah etc etc.

So when you switch it up, and say “You can” play a session, then it’s suddenly a concrete assertion … well … can he? Does he have the skills? Is that the way to get them? Maybe, on all counts.

** John always called absolute babies first jazz tune standards, and would call some weird little reharms on them. If you sounded terrible he’d give you a little pat on the back and have a good natured laugh at your expense. If you smoked it but didn’t play his reharm, he’d dress you down on the bandstand.

There's a lot of stuff I hadn't considered here. You should think about teaching.

Just to drift the thread. What is the difference in a reharm and a substitution?

[voxo]

you guys never heard of band in a box...forget chords...ever hear Grant Green playing any and Barney played a tad too many....un lock those fingers..

[GuyBoden]

you guys never heard of band in a box...forget chords...ever hear Grant Green playing any and Barney played a tad too many....un lock those fingers..

Playing chords is what guitarists mainly do?

The guitarist's first job is to be good at comping or practice until they are good at comping. IMHO.

[pamosmusic]

you guys never heard of band in a box...forget chords...ever hear Grant Green playing any and Barney played a tad too many....un lock those fingers..

lord a mighty

“Forget chords,” he says.

[voxo]

none you guys brave enough to go to a Buddy Rich jam session...i still got a broken jaw

[pamosmusic]

none you guys brave enough to go to a Buddy Rich jam session...i still got a broken jaw

You should probably get that fixed.

[voxo]

if a guitarist cant play a good single line solo..im out...chords isnt that what a piano player does..last words i heard from Buddy were `no more fukin Berklee solos`

[pamosmusic]

if a guitarist cant play a good single line solo..im out...chords isnt that what a piano player does

Lol … if there is a piano player. I don’t remember the last time I had a paying gig with two chording instruments.

So how about — and I’m just spitballing here — a guitarist do both of the two things they’re supposed to do in an average playing situation?

No, you’re right. Too much to ask.

[pamosmusic]

..last words i heard from Buddy were `no more fukin Berklee solos`

what are you on about

[rpjazzguitar]

I think of a substitution as one chord for another.

I think of a reharm as a more comprehensive rewrite of the tune's harmony.

So, that's what I think. Since there's no official definition of any term within jazz, or the term "jazz" itself, others are likely to think differently and be just as right.

[pamosmusic]

There's a lot of stuff I hadn't considered here. You should think about teaching.

Teaching is for chumps.

Just to drift the thread. What is the difference in a reharm and a substitution?

Who knows?

I think of subs as being single chords swapped out for other single chords that have the same function.

I think of reharms as being longer sections that are reworked and might be fundamentally different functions. But honestly it’s more of a matter of degree for me.

Like But Not For Me …

G7 - C7 - F6 ….

Db7 - Gb7 - F6 would be a chord sub.

McCoy on the Coltrane version playing Trane changes would be a reharm maybe?

In that case it’s kind of doing the same stuff but more stuff is changed and the changes are more radical.

Soooooo … shrug?

[pamosmusic]

I think of a substitution as one chord for another.

I think of a reharm as a more comprehensive rewrite of the tune's harmony.

So, that's what I think. Since there's no official definition of any term within jazz, or the term "jazz" itself, others are likely to think differently and be just as right.

Yeah. That’s a more succinct way of putting it. I think probably five jazz dorks would define it the same way but all five might put the line between substitutions and reharm in a different place.

[MinToyTot]

I once went to a Buddy Rich jam and introduced him to my comping style which makes extensive use of 16th note monads. Buddy was so impressed that he broke the other guitarist's jaw for trying to play chords during other people's solos instead of my revolutionary new approach. Tough nuts but the other guy should have known that that plinky plonky piano stuff wouldn't fly after my masterclass

I see a substitution as a device and a reharm as a product, e.g. spontaneous substitution in improv = reharm on the fly and a pre considered reharm may include a substitution.

[Christian Miller]

Definitely an overlap.

In jazz I would say - reharmonisation means to invent an alternate harmonisation (different chords) of a given melody. This can be literally anything that fits the melody, so there are no constraints on basing the reharmonisation on the original chords.

In chord substitution to my mind, we are often thinking about swapping out chords for the vanilla changes as a soloing or comping technique - so the soloist might employ a tritone substitution or a backdoor dominant against the rhythm section's basic dominant chord. So I see that as a bit more constrained by the standard changes in most blowing situations.

If it was a reharmonisation, there would be an expectation that everyone play the new chords. So a chart would be given? (I don't know if this was the case in Peter's anecdote.)

But it's not black and white.

[wolflen]

Speaking of being at a jam session..and getting a broken jaw..

Here is a fish out of water trying to learn how to walk..

[AllanAllen]

If it was a reharmonisation, there would be an expectation that everyone play the new chords. So a chart would be given? (I don't know if this was the case in Peter's anecdote.)

I also want more context from Peter on the McNeil incident. Was there a chart? Do I have to solo his changes? At that point why not write your own tune? Why even go to a jazz session if you want to control what the rest of the band does?

[AllanAllen]

Is the D7 Db7 turnaround a reharm or substituion for Footprints?

[pamosmusic]

I also want more context from Peter on the McNeil incident.

No, no charts.

Things like “Another You, but in the solos we start on E7 and cycle back to the Cm in bar 5. Go.”

[Christian Miller]

Is the D7 Db7 turnaround a reharm or substituion for Footprints?

I think it's called 'wrong', if you excuse the jargon.