Improv Study Group?

[Mick-7]

Hey Everyone, Is there interest in starting a thread in which we study and compare ways of creating lines that flow over the chord changes? That is, approaches or techniques to connect chord tones and scales to create good sounding lines and melodies.

In other threads, people have mentioned techniques like practicing playing 8th note lines over the chord changes, using Barry Harris strategies, etc. We could record or write down examples that illustrate the improvisation approaches we use.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, thanks.

[GuyBoden]

Excellent, I have a formulaic method for basic changes, not really Etudes, but they could be.

[Mick-7]

We could do this however people would like, just keep it simple, it doesn't have to be fancy.

In the example below, I've just plotted out scale options for the chord progression. We could connect scales or chord tones, create variations on the melodies of tunes, etc. Just pick a strategy and record ourselves experimenting with it, don't worry about whether it makes sense, that's our ultimate destination but not the expedition.

[Christian Miller]

Better to play than to write


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[pamosmusic]

Better to play than to write


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Or maybe post recordings of yourself playing the etude, in addition to posting the etude itself. That might be useful.

Question for Mick: does a transcription count?

[Tal_175]

I think there is a benefit in narrowing the scope of a given study group. Continuous 8th notes that outline the changes of a tune is a concise task. A transcription typically is not gonna be continuous 8th notes, nor it'll be outlining every changes.

It's possible that many people who want to participate in this type of study group aren't yet able to whip continuous 8th note scalar lines over tunes. They can simplify the task with a pedagogical vision to help them get to playing continuous 8th note lines. For example limiting to one position, two octaves, playing quarter notes, only playing triads, only playing thirds and 7ths etc. But I don't think playing a transcription is a reasonably focused activity towards this goal.

[pamosmusic]

Okay. Didnt seem like Micks initial post was quite so narrow

[Tal_175]

Okay. Didnt seem like Micks initial post was quite so narrow

I agree he didn't specify the scope. I am under the impression that what he means is continuous 8th note exercises but let's see what he is thinking.

[AllanAllen]

I think the best study group threads have the simple and precise rules. “Play just the melody” for example.

[GuyBoden]

I'm posting my 'Yesterdays' exercise, it's the 3rds and 7ths of the simplified chords.

I used this outline as a starting point for my improv. (It's quite a few years old, so probably has mistakes.)


Edit: I found another old version of my improv framework:


I'm open to new ideas on this topic, I seem to be stuck in a rut with my current method.

[Mick-7]

I agree he didn't specify the scope. I am under the impression that what he means is continuous 8th note exercises but let's see what he is thinking.

I did not mean to suggest we do this in a particular way, I'm asking forum members who would like to start an improvisation study thread how they would like to approach it. As I said in my second post in this thread, "We could connect scales or chord tones, create variations on the melodies of tunes, etc. Just pick a strategy and record ourselves experimenting with it."

I think the best study group threads have the simple and precise rules. “Play just the melody” for example.

I agree, I'm asking you folks to suggest what the rules should be for an improv study group. And we can ditch the "etude" approach if we want, it's probably too formal.

[Mick-7]

I think there is a benefit in narrowing the scope of a given study group. Continuous 8th notes that outline the changes of a tune is a concise task. A transcription typically is not gonna be continuous 8th notes, nor it'll be outlining every changes.

It's possible that many people who want to participate in this type of study group aren't yet able to whip continuous 8th note scalar lines over tunes. They can simplify the task with a pedagogical vision to help them get to playing continuous 8th note lines. For example limiting to one position, two octaves, playing quarter notes, only playing triads, only playing thirds and 7ths etc.

Yes, I suspect that continuous 8th notes would be beyond the capacity of most forum members, the main goal would be to create good sounding lines that reflect the chord changes, however we'd like to approach that.

Looks easy enough, doesn't it? But listen....

Very Early is a tune I'm working on, I was not suggesting we study it, the changes are too unusual. We should start with tunes that have simpler, more common, chord changes.

[Tal_175]

I did not mean to suggest we do this in a particular way, I'm asking forum members who would like to start an improvisation study thread how they would like to approach it. As I said in my second post in this thread, "We could connect scales or chord tones, create variations on the melodies of tunes, etc. Just pick a strategy and record ourselves experimenting with it."

It's not clear to me if you suggesting people to discuss and agree on one specific approach for the study thread or are you suggesting potentially everyone can pick a different approach and record themselves experiment with whatever approach they picked?

[pamosmusic]

What if you say …

1. standard tune
2. written out
3. performed

Interpreted as you wish.

[Mick-7]

It's not clear to me if you suggesting people to discuss and agree on one specific approach for the study thread or are you suggesting potentially everyone can pick a different approach and record themselves experiment with whatever approach they picked?

I think that deciding on our study approach, as Allan suggested, would make the most sense. We could go one of two ways, work on:
(1) outlining the changes smoothly, or (2) playing more lyrically - developing themes and melodies. You kind of have to be able to do #1 before you can do #2, so it may be the way to go.

What if you say …

1. standard tune
2. written out
3. performed

Interpreted as you wish.

That's fine, but what is the objective of our study?

[Tal_175]

I think that deciding on our study approach, as Allan suggested, would make the most sense. We could go one of two ways, work on:
(1) outlining the changes smoothly, or (2) playing more lyrically - developing themes and melodies. You kind of have to be able to do #1 before you can do #2, so it may be the way to go.

OK it seems like this is gonna turn into a less focused study group about improvisation than I had originally interpreted. Probably not something I'd be interested in participating as even outlining changes is too broad a notion for a study group in my opinion. Nevertheless, it seems from other study groups on this forum there are many who prefer a looser format where people just play things and post (or even post things they recorded years ago).

[Mick-7]

One thing I'd like to concentrate on is: How does the chord progression suggest the notes you will choose to improvise over it?

For example, the chord changes of Very Early suggested certain scales to me, as illustrated in the study I posted [post #3]:

OK it seems like this is gonna turn into a less focused study group about improvisation than I had originally interpreted. Probably not something I'd be interested in participating as even outlining changes is too broad a notion for a study group in my opinion. Nevertheless, it seems from other study groups on this forum there are many who prefer a looser format where people just play things a post (or even post things they recorded years ago).

As I said, I'm asking for suggestions, if "outlining the changes" is too rudimentary (it can be), what would you prefer?

[pamosmusic]

Or we could save some time and just argue about it here without ever really starting?

[pamosmusic]

That's fine, but what is the objective of our study?

Seeing what people work on with etudes and how they use them?

[Mick-7]

Seeing what people work on with etudes and how they use them?

Call me skeptical, that seems too open ended to me. I thought we'd try to meet Allan's prime directive: "The best study group threads have simple and precise rules, like 'play the melody'."

[pamosmusic]

What if you say …

1. standard tune
2. written out
3. performed

Interpreted as you wish.

Simple and precise rules like these?

Or simple and precise rules like “outline the changes,” the parameters of which you goofballs are already arguing about.

Might be worth remembering that, in the thread Allan cited as a success, you had a several page long argument about what the rules were anyway.

[GuyBoden]

I'm posting my 'Yesterdays' exercise, it's the 3rds and 7ths of the simplified chords.

I used this outline as a starting point for my improv. (It's quite a few years old, so probably has mistakes.)

My simplistic method:

1. Write the 3rds and 7ths for each chord.
2. Write Approach notes for each 3rd and 7th.
3. Add Enclosures to the Approach notes for each 3rd and 7th.
3. Add additional Arps with the Approach notes for the 3rds and 7ths.

It's just my rough frame work for improv, trying out ideas over the chords, but I'm interested in trying different ideas.


(Obviously, I try lots of licks too.)

[Mick-7]

Simple and precise rules like these?

What if you say …

1. standard tune
2. written out
3. performed

Interpreted as you wish.

So you're agreeing with Tal_175's question/suggestion? - "everyone can pick a different approach and record themselves experimenting with the approach they picked?"

I suppose that could work... I was thinking we should all do the same experiment - and see who builds the best monster.

And this approach would work too, beats outlining the chord changes: Just the melody

But alter rather than embellish the melody as he suggests in that post.

[Tal_175]

So you're agreeing with Tal_175's question/suggestion? - "everyone can pick a different approach and record themselves experimenting with the approach they picked?"

That wasn't my suggestion. I was just trying to understand what you were suggesting. I was actually saying the opposite:

I think there is a benefit in narrowing the scope of a given study group. Continuous 8th notes that outline the changes of a tune is a concise task.

[pamosmusic]

That wasn't my suggestion. I was just trying to understand what you were suggesting. I was actually saying the opposite:

…. would you post anything either way?