Improv Study Group?

[Mick-7]

And I said that's a lovely thought but most sheet music that exists in the world doesn't have chord changes written above it, and that many people who read music that does have chord changes above it aren't necessarily chording instruments.

Well we already covered that ground ad nauseam in the other thread, but as I said there, most lead sheets do indeed have chord changes written on them, just like ragmans lead sheet, and I think the chord changes should be considered when notating the melodic line.

[BreckerFan]

And I said that's a lovely thought but most sheet music that exists in the world doesn't have chord changes written above it, and that many people who read music that does have chord changes above it aren't necessarily chording instruments.

True, but IMO it's still really important to communicate harmonic information through linear notation, even for monophonic instruments. Knowing that you're playing a minor third vs a sharp nine matters for how you understand the line you're playing. I think there was an Adam Neely video where he argued that in some cases the difference can imply a subtle change in pitch.

Now in most situations the result is probably going to be the same, and it's not a make or break thing.

But on the extreme end of things it can be really important. If I'm notating a line with a polytonal substitution, say E melodic minor over Cmaj7, I will be very explicit to notate E melodic minor (the C# for example) because that is information that needs to be communicated to understand what's happening harmonically. It's really difficult to discern what's being intended if it's not clearly spelled out.

[pamosmusic]

Well we already covered that ground ad nauseam in the other thread, but as I said there, most lead sheets do indeed have chord changes written on them, just like ragmans lead sheet, and I think the chord changes should be considered when notating the melodic line.

yeah mick ad nauseum but you still seem to just skate on by the stuff you don’t want to read.

Yes most lead sheets have chords but I didn’t say most lead sheets. I said most music. Most music is not lead sheets. So when you’re writing music, you have other considerations to make unless you’re writing exclusively lead sheets. And even if you are, a saxophone player won’t care much when they’re reading the melody. And even if they do, saxophone is a transposing instrument, so adhering to the rule and just transposing your music over for them will leave you with some bananas accidentals etc etc etc.

Write music that’s easy to read for the person reading it. Thats about it.

[BreckerFan]

The background rhythm isn't 3/4, it's 12/8.

Okay, let's say you and everybody else are right and my pictures are rubbish. Why are you more interested in that than using the chords? It's just a template and, as I explained earlier, you can do what you want with it.

Here's the vanilla progression again:

C - Bb7 - A7 - Dm
Ab7 - D7 - G#o - Am
F7 - E7 - Am - G7

And here's an altered version.

CM7 - Bb13 - A7b9 - Dm7
Ab13 - D7#9 - G#o - Am7
F13 - E7b9 - Am6 - G13

Use it or don't bother with it. Or are you all worried about using altered notes? Which is the whole point of the exercise. I give up.

Like I said, I don't really care, but you were giving someone a bad time over how many measures in a bar and some typos in the chord symbols. Let's be consistent.

[James W]

The time signature is irrelevant to this point.

Nah, it's rubbish. It's 6/4, not 12/8. Irrespective of the backing rhythm, it feels like 6/4.

[pamosmusic]

True, but IMO it's still really important to communicate harmonic information through linear notation, even for monophonic instruments. Knowing that you're playing a minor third vs a sharp nine matters for how you understand the line you're playing. I think there was an Adam Neely video where he argued that in some cases the difference can imply a subtle change in pitch.

Now in most situations the result is probably going to be the same, and it's not a make or break thing.

But on the extreme end of things it can be really important. If I'm notating a line with a polytonal substitution, say E melodic minor over Cmaj7, I will be very explicit to notate E melodic minor (the C# for example) because that is information that needs to be communicated to understand what's happening harmonically. It's really difficult to discern what's being intended if it's not clearly spelled out.

Those are good points.

And Adam is half right on the difference in pitch. And it’s interesting the context in which he’s right …

if you’re writing a jazz band hit where the instruments are tuning to each other but there aren’t chord symbols over the part, then you absolutely need to convey harmonic information. Gb in an Eb minor chord will tune differently than F# in a D major chord.

The context where it’s less likely to matter is actually most instances where a lead sheet is involved, because the horn will be playing with an accompanist, and commonly used accompaniment instruments are equal tempered anyway.

So it's actually when there are no chord symbols that it matters more in practice.

[James W]

Nah, it's rubbish. It's 6/4, not 12/8. Irrespective of the backing rhythm, it feels like 6/4.

I think the backing rhythm goes something like this BTW. There is some push and pull happening with the last strum, however -

[ragman1]

Nah, it's rubbish. It's 6/4, not 12/8. Irrespective of the backing rhythm, it feels like 6/4.

All right, I believe you

[Mick-7]

Idk if I'm allowed to post this or if it violates the sacred rules of (non?) etudes in this thread but here's one I wrote to work on some outside sub ideas on a blues.

Modern F Blues Outside Substitution Etude on Birdlike - YouTube

Since I'm now trying to do music full time the notation is on my website for a dollar. But the analysis is there in the video which is more important anyway.

Do you see that sort of stuff seeping into your playing? No doubt that is the goal of it, but I've noticed that if I make such things overly complicated, I am unlikely to see (hear) them bear fruit.

[GuyBoden]

Idk if I'm allowed to post this or if it violates the sacred rules of (non?) etudes in this thread but here's one I wrote to work on some outside sub ideas on a blues

Modern F Blues Outside Substitution Etude on Birdlike - YouTube

Since I'm now trying to do music full time the notation is on my website for a dollar. But the analysis is there in the video which is more important anyway.

Excellent playing technique.

[BreckerFan]

Do you see that sort of stuff seeping into your playing? No doubt that is the goal of it, but I've noticed that if I make such things overly complicated, I am unlikely to see (hear) them bear fruit.

By practicing a variety of etudes that use similar concepts, and by practicing them a lot (!), yes the concepts become usable, some moreso than others. In particular a lot of the pentatonic shifting and use of diminished scale are things I do a lot. But you have to stick with it; practicing these for a day or a week isn't gonna do it. But consistent practice over a multiple month span will show some results.

[Mick-7]

By practicing a variety of etudes that use similar concepts, and by practicing them a lot (!), yes the concepts become usable, some moreso than others. In particular a lot of the pentatonic shifting and use of diminished scale are things I do a lot. But you have to stick with it; practicing these for a day or a week isn't gonna do it. But consistent practice over a multiple month span will show some results.

For me it's mostly a matter of ear training rather than technique, i.e., I need to practice something long enough to be able to hear it well enough that it will occur to me while I'm improvising. It doesn't show up in my playing until I've done that.

[BreckerFan]

For me it's mostly a matter of ear training rather than technique, i.e., I need to practice something long enough to be able to hear it well enough that it will occur to me while I'm improvising. It doesn't show up in my playing until I've done that.

The etudes like this that I work on accomplish both. It's not purely technical, but also working on specific harmonic ideas.

[GuyBoden]