Improv Study Group?

[Mick-7]

"I think there is a benefit in narrowing the scope of a given study group. Continuous 8th notes that outline the changes of a tune is a concise task."

Make it "as continuous a stream of notes as one can manage"? If it's mostly quarter notes, that would be fine.

One could play variations on the melody, connect chord tones and/or scales, etc., whatever one wants to focus on. How's that?

[Tal_175]

"I think there is a benefit in narrowing the scope of a given study group. Continuous 8th notes that outline the changes of a tune is a concise task."

Make it "as continuous a stream of notes as one can manage"? If it's mostly quarter notes, that would be fine.

One could play variations on the melody, connect chord tones and/or scales, etc., whatever one wants to focus on. How's that?

Yep, reach inside and play what comes to you thread.

[Mick-7]

Yep, reach inside and play what comes to you thread.

That's definitely a concise task.

We seem to be getting nowhere fast here, why don't ya' all give it some thought. Should I create a poll? - but then I'd have to decide on the questions.

[pamosmusic]

James and Cliff are already writing etudes and posting themselves playing them so maybe we let them decide

[Mick-7]

James and Cliff are already writing etudes and posting themselves playing them so maybe we let them decide

I would appreciate their input, however, etudes tend to be more technique/strategy oriented, I'm thinking of a broader approach to studying improvisation, more what you play than the reasons you played it.

My rules based (composed) improv is never as good as my ear-guided improv. When I record myself improvising, I hear ideas that I would not have thought up.

[James W]

James and Cliff are already writing etudes and posting themselves playing them so maybe we let them decide

I thought I'd go ahead and start my own thread for this, which I had already previously mentioned I was going to do. Just with the sheet music and a performance (or attempt thereof).

I might participate in a thread geared towards a particular tune but if it's just a general one where people post the sheet music of what they've composed along with the audio or video, then the fact that I've already started my own thread for that means a new one might be superfluous for me (though I would still be interested in hearing the efforts of various forum-contributors). Though my own thread hasn't exactly garnered much attention yet so, if I'm feeling lonely haha I might ditch my own thread and just post my etudes in the new general thread.

[James W]

more what you play than the reasons you played it.

Would you mind explaining this distinction for me please?

My rules based (composed) improv is never as good as my ear-guided improv. When I record myself improvising, I hear ideas that I would not have thought up.

You have really whetted my (and I'm sure, others') appetite to hear you improvise. Please post something soon!

[pamosmusic]

I would appreciate their input, however, etudes tend to be more technique/strategy oriented, I'm thinking of a broader approach to studying improvisation, more what you play than the reasons you played it.

My rules based (composed) improv is never as good as my ear-guided improv. When I record myself improvising, I hear ideas that I would not have thought up.

If it’s not clear, I’m yanking your chain.

You seem to have a very specific idea of what the thread shouldn’t be, but no clear idea of what it should be.

If you have a thing you’re working on, say so and post your stuff. Invite folks to do the same.

If you want to hear what other people are doing, then don’t hem them in with your own idea of what will be useful.

You say that your ear comes up with things your brain wouldn’t think of. Okay. Consider the same possibility with respect to input from other people. Maybe if you listen (for lack of a better word) someone else will find other uses for etudes and other ways of putting that tool to use than you would’ve thought of on your own.

[Mick-7]

Would you mind explaining this distinction for me please?

As I suggested, improvisation driven mostly by my ears rather than set rules. What do you see as the purpose of etudes, why do you write them? (I suppose your thread will tell me that).

You have really whetted my (and I'm sure, others') appetite to hear you improvise. Please post something soon!

Well, if it wasn't clear from my comment, you'll probably hear a few great ideas mixed in with mediocre ones, my ultimate goal is to keep the latter to a minimum.

P.S. - You've already started an etude thread? I have not seen it, where is it?

[BreckerFan]

1) First, it needs to be written out properly, 4 bars to a line.

2) You need to start simple. This is a highly complex tune.

3) Most people won't know what notes to use on the chords.

4) In any case, any solo will be influenced by the melody otherwise it's random.

5) Finding little methods to make a solo isn't an improv. Improvs must be felt, not contrived.

6) It's much easier to write CM7 than to find the ^ sign at the top of the keyboard.

7} Bb is written with a capital B and a lower case b, not a smaller B.

8) This is a good example of trying to run before we can walk. Sorry.

9) Try it with something much simpler. Be prepared to play it out loud just to prove it works.

10) The foolish always create unrealistic goals which inevitably fail. The wise begin simply and move from there.

1. Who cares
2. The point of an etude is to work on something that's difficult. Writing something over challenging changes that clearly outlines them is a perfect way to practice. The more you practice it, the more the sound of nailing the changes gets in your ears and becomes something natural to do.
3. We don't?
4. Not true at all. Reference to the melody is a good but not essential element of improv. See any number of very linear solos.
5. Etudes are not directly for practicing improv, but they can be for practicing skills useful for improv.
6. Who cares
7. Who cares
8. Who cares
9. See 2. Did you play it out loud to see if it doesn't work?
10. You don't grow unless you challenge yourself.

[pamosmusic]

1. Who cares
2. The point of an etude is to work on something that's difficult. Writing something over challenging changes that clearly outlines them is a perfect way to practice. The more you practice it, the more the sound of nailing the changes gets in your ears and becomes something natural to do.
3. We don't?
4. Not true at all. Reference to the melody is a good but not essential element of improv. See any number of very linear solos.
5. Etudes are not directly for practicing improv, but they can be for practicing skills useful for improv.
6. Who cares
7. Who cares
8. Who cares
9. See 2. Did you play it out loud to see if it doesn't work?
10. You don't grow unless you challenge yourself.

Also re: #10 … foolish or wise … the guy who begins simply, fails anyway, and never moves on?

re: most of your other points, I’ve found ragmans comments generally make the most sense when regarded as pure projection.

[Mick-7]

After all this discussion, I'm thinking that a study group that focuses on improvising on tunes melodies, creating variations and developing motifs based on the melodies (which could be as inside or outside the harmony as we wish to go), would be a good exercise for a study group. Or if that's too difficult a task for some people, they could modify and/or embellish the melody instead. Would that be agreeable?

[James W]

As I suggested, improvisation driven mostly by my ears rather than set rules. What do you see as the purpose of etudes, why do you write them? (I suppose your thread will tell me that

But your ears surely acknowledge the 'rules' governing improvisation over chord changes, don't they? I don't see the distinction you appear to be trying to make.

The reason I write etudes is to get away from habits that my fingers fall into, to refresh both my ears and fingers with different sounds, the idea being that the process as much as the end result will improve how I play a song, since I like to practice varying an etude as well as playing it as written.

[Mick-7]

But your ears surely acknowledge the 'rules' governing improvisation over chord changes, don't they? I don't see the distinction you appear to be trying to make.

The chord changes suggest certain note choices, certain scales, that's the only rule I consider. I just found that my progress was faster if I kept trying to play what I hear rather than try to integrate lines I've composed into my playing. If I hear a phrase I like I'll practice it.

The reason I write etudes is to get away from habits that my fingers fall into, to refresh both my ears and fingers with different sounds, the idea being that the process as much as the end result will improve how I play a song, since I like to practice varying an etude as well as playing it as written.

Etudes would not do that for me (at least not ones I've composed), transcribing could because other musicians phrases are more likely to be different than those I compose, e.g., make into an etude.

2. The point of an etude is to work on something that's difficult. Writing something over challenging changes that clearly outlines them is a perfect way to practice. The more you practice it, the more the sound of nailing the changes gets in your ears and becomes something natural to do.

That's great if if works for you, for me the "keep on playing" tip, i.e., improvise in 8th notes, which I first heard from Joe Pass, has been more productive. It also helped me become a better sight reader, I used to stop playing every time I fumbled a phrase, and play it over, which was counterproductive.

[GuyBoden]

My experience yesterday, was that it's very easy to fall into the trap of making a 'Notated Etude' much more difficult than your ability to play.

and also they easily become very difficult to remember............

Edit: 4bar example of Yesterdays etude, written yesterday and I can't even remember today.

[pamosmusic]

The chord changes suggest certain note choices, certain scales, that's the only rule I consider. I just found that my progress was faster if I kept trying to play what I hear rather than try to integrate lines I've composed into my playing. If I hear a phrase I like I'll practice it.

Then what are doing here? Make an “I Play What I Hear” thread. I mean good lord, man. We get it. We may not buy it, but we get it.

So why do you want to start a thread about etudes?

Etudes would not do that for me (at least not ones I've composed), transcribing could because other musicians phrases are more likely to be different than those I compose, e.g., make into an etude.

Hey gee, you know what else might be likely to produce phrases different than those you compose? Etudes other people write that don’t conform to the extremely strict definition you seem obsessed with applying them.

That's great if if works for you, for me the "keep on playing" tip, i.e., improvise in 8th notes, which I first heard from Joe Pass, has been more productive. It also helped me become a better sight reader, I used to stop playing every time I fumbled a phrase, and play it over, which was counterproductive.

At various times you’ve suggested that etudes are generally for technique and that you want etudes that outline changes. This man says he writes etudes that challenge his technique and clearly outline changes and you still have some problem with it.

Sooooooooooo …… to put it bluntly, this thread sounds like it’s going to be a flop. Make a Micks etudes thread and be done with it.

[CliffR]

[James W]

The chord changes suggest certain note choices, certain scales, that's the only rule I consider. I just found that my progress was faster if I kept trying to play what I hear rather than try to integrate lines I've composed into my playing. If I hear a phrase I like I'll practice it.



Etudes would not do that for me (at least not ones I've composed), transcribing could because other musicians phrases are more likely to be different than those I compose, e.g., make into an etude.



That's great if if works for you, for me the "keep on playing" tip, i.e., improvise in 8th notes, which I first heard from Joe Pass, has been more productive. It also helped me become a better sight reader, I used to stop playing every time I fumbled a phrase, and play it over, which was counterproductive.

I second Peter's point.

Having started this thread, you now appear to be arguing against the value for yourself of composing etudes. Amazing.

[Tal_175]

The chord changes suggest certain note choices, certain scales, that's the only rule I consider. I just found that my progress was faster if I kept trying to play what I hear rather than try to integrate lines I've composed into my playing. If I hear a phrase I like I'll practice it.

So the only rule you follow is that the note choices should fall within a certain chord - scale mapping. But then you try to play what you hear.

Then there are two possibilities:
- What you hear already follows your rule regarding the note choices. If transcribe what you play, you'd find that you are outlining the changes. Then you don't need to practice connecting chord tones, guide tones and chord scales over tunes.

- Your note choices are hit and miss with respect to the harmony and you can't outline the changes purely by ear in performance tempos. Then the question is what sort of practice regimen will help you guide your ears and fingers to develop a stronger connection with harmony?

Of course the goal is not to outline every change but that should not result from one's inability to do so. Playing the changes establishes that you hear and anticipate the changes when you improvise. Once you can do that, whatever you play acquires more aural purpose. I am sure this isn't just my observation and experience, does anybody have a contrary experience?

[lawson-stone]

I am not interested in notating anything. I am happy to record ideas and examples and post, but I am not interested in writing it out. I just haven't got the time or energy for that.

[pamosmusic]

Of course the goal is not to outline every change but that should not result from one's inability to do so. Playing the changes establishes that you hear and anticipate the changes when you improvise. Once you can do that, whatever you play acquires more aural purpose. I am sure this isn't just my observation and experience, does anybody have a contrary experience?

Sounds roughly right?

With a lot of practice stuff, the analogy I give people is when people go for a run with weights in their backpack, or when a baseball player puts the donut on their bat while they’re on deck.

It seems silly to practice that, but it’s not the goal of the practice. It’s almost to take one part of the task of the table. You get so used to the extra weight on the bat that you take the weight off and the weight of the actual bat itself seems like a nonissue and you can focus on other stuff. A challenge that makes practical performance seem easier or flow more naturally. Seems like that’s probably what we’re doing most of the time when we really focus on nailing the changes too.

At this point I’m not sure what this has to do with etude writing anymore — at least insofar as Mick conceives of it — but I’m always down to ramble on about practice strategies

[James W]

So you've composed a brand new tune, Ragman.

I really don't see what if anything that has to do with the topic of this thread.

[Mick-7]

I second Peter's point.

Having started this thread, you now appear to be arguing against the value for yourself of composing etudes. Amazing.

You and Peter obviously missed my earlier comment (below):

I'm asking you folks to suggest what the rules should be for an improv study group. And we can ditch the "etude" approach if we want, it's probably too formal.

So the only rule you follow is that the note choices should fall within a certain chord - scale mapping. But then you try to play what you hear.

It's not really a rule, chords suggest tonalities and scales associated with them, I'm not obligated to use them, sometimes I think purely in terms of consonant and dissonant sets of notes, but that's harder to conceptualize.

[Mick-7]

I am not interested in notating anything. I am happy to record ideas and examples and post, but I am not interested in writing it out. I just haven't got the time or energy for that.

Yes, that's another reason not to do etudes.

[lawson-stone]

Smells like somebody just farted in the room here...