Summer of Rhythm … Changes?

[ragman1]

I love Rhythm Changes... but only when I'm having fun with it.

[pamosmusic]

I love Rhythm Changes... but only when I'm having fun with it.

Are we to add this to the list of “classic guitar solos over rhythm changes?”

[ragman1]

Oh, absolutely, it deserves no less.

[joe2758]

I'm too scared of it!

[Strat-itis]

I'm battling away at getting my rhythm changes clean. I've finalized my simple scale outlining for the A section to have it outline the form precisely but in the most basic way possible.

I / V7 / I / V7
I7 / IV7 / V7 / V7 or tritone for 1st A. Just I for 2nd and 3rd A.

This seems to flow with the bass line and contour of the form to me.

[AllanAllen]

Bb blues over the A. Charlie Christian and Lester Young did it right.

[pcjazz]

Bb blues over the A. Charlie Christian and Lester Young did it right.

I think you're talking about lines, not changes.
The A section changes go Anatole x 3, Christophe x 1. Most variants work.

[Strat-itis]

Throwing in blues is nice. My goal was a concise scale outline tho.

[pamosmusic]

Looks like Barry’s

[Strat-itis]

Chris (BH Jr) probably showed us that already. I was trying to do it in the style of Barry. Mine might be slightly different than what Chris would do.

[AllanAllen]

I think you're talking about lines, not changes.
The A section changes go Anatole x 3, Christophe x 1. Most variants work.

The changes are I vi ii V, not all this Barry Harris mapping which is how to solo over them.

You guys have this simple thing so complicated.

[pamosmusic]

The changes are I vi ii V, not all this Barry Harris mapping which is how to solo over them.

You guys have this simple thing so complicated.

With the caveat that I also don’t know who Christophe is …

I V is a well accepted way to notate a “turnaround” … sort of the simplest way to spell the changes that includes all the important functions (home:away)

I vi ii V is a specific turnaround, of which there are many … iii-VI-ii-V … I biiidim ii V … I bIII bVI bII … and on and on

“Play Blues” is one way to play over a turnaround progression.

Who gives a crap?

If I tell you it’s two turnarounds, a four and back, and a turnaround, you can go “ah, I’ll play blues over that.” But then you could also play one of those many turnarounds etc etc.

If I tell you it’s just blues for the As, then that’s what I play and it doesn’t tell me anything else about what I might play there if I were so inclined.

Also lots of progressions are super flexible, but probably none more so than blues and rhythm changes. So when you say the changes are I IV ii V, you’re like … maybe right on some tunes sometimes. If you say it’s a turnaround, then you’re right all the time and you’ll be more on your toes for all the flexibility you’re going to hear going on around you with respect to how to render those changes.

[grahambop]

Anatole and Christophe explained (in French):

Le petit jargon du jazz Docteur Jazz

[Christian Miller]

Rhythm changes can also be just 4 turnarounds (orig I Got Rhythm) or 2 X a 4’n’back followed by a turnaround(like Lester Leaps In)

Bb6 Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F Gb7 | C-7 F7 x 2

Or it can be a climbing progression up
to III followed by a descending prog from
III either twice or followed by the 4 n back/turnaround module.

Bb^7 Bb6 | C-7 C-6 | D-7 D-6 | C-7 C-6
Or
Bb6 Bo7 | C-7 C#o7 | Bb/D Dbo7 | C-7 C-6

Or the Mean to Me/Serpents Tooth/Aint misbehaving prog which goes to IV IVm in bar 4

Bb6 Bo7 | C-7 F7 | Bb6 Bb7 | Eb^7 Eb-6
Or
Bb6 Bo7 | C-7 C#o7 | D-7 D7#5 | Eb^7 Eb-6

All of these progressions have in common a sense of elaborating a I chord by moving between I/IIIm and IV/IIm on the strong beats and having passing chords on the weak beats. As a result they are kind of the same thing with different basslines and soloing on one isn’t that different to soloing on any others.


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[pamosmusic]

Rhythm changes can also be just 4 turnarounds (orig I Got Rhythm)

Also cottontail

or 2 X a 4’n’back followed by a turnaround(like Lester Leaps In)

Head for Rhythm a Ning.

Also very cool old school vibe to play that Bb Bb7 Eb Edim thing over those A sections generally

[pamosmusic]

Rhythm changes can also be just 4 turnarounds (orig I Got Rhythm) or 2 X a 4’n’back followed by a turnaround(like Lester Leaps In)

Bb6 Bb7/D | Eb Eo7 | Bb/F Gb7 | C-7 F7 x 2

Or it can be a climbing progression up
to III followed by a descending prog from
III either twice or followed by the 4 n back/turnaround module.

Bb^7 Bb6 | C-7 C-6 | D-7 D-6 | C-7 C-6
Or
Bb6 Bo7 | C-7 C#o7 | Bb/D Dbo7 | C-7 C-6

Or the Mean to Me/Serpents Tooth/Aint misbehaving prog which goes to IV IVm in bar 4

Bb6 Bo7 | C-7 F7 | Bb6 Bb7 | Eb^7 Eb-6
Or
Bb6 Bo7 | C-7 C#o7 | D-7 D7#5 | Eb^7 Eb-6

All of these progressions have in common a sense of elaborating a I chord by moving between I/IIIm and IV/IIm on the strong beats and having passing chords on the weak beats. As a result they are kind of the same thing with different basslines and soloing on one isn’t that different to soloing on any others.


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tldr: rhythm changes rules

[AllanAllen]

Are we trying to somehow map all possible options with one sentence? I don’t see the usefulness of at. Just like blues, you start simple and then expand as you get comfortable.

If you can’t blow blues over I VI ii V, don’t worry about Christophe and his Eb° over Ain’t Misbehavin.

See, what I did there was jumble up everything like the cat who can’t competently blow blues over the A will do. So don’t take that as me misunderstanding the thread and try to correct it.

[Christian Miller]

Are we trying to somehow map all possible options with one sentence? I don’t see the usefulness of at. Just like blues, you start simple and then expand as you get comfortable.

If you can’t blow blues over I VI ii V, don’t worry about Christophe and his Eb° over Ain’t Misbehavin.

See, what I did there was jumble up everything like the cat who can’t competently blow blues over the A will do. So don’t take that as me misunderstanding the thread and try to correct it.

You can play any variant of rhythm changes over any other and it all sounds great.


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[James W]

Randy Vincent has a ton of ideas for turn arounds in his The Cellular Approach book.

[AllanAllen]

You can play any variant of rhythm changes over any other and it all sounds great.


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I agree, if you can do that. I don’t think I’m being understood.

I’m having flashbacks to the thread where I said So What isn’t a beginner tune because they end up counting 24 bars of D minor to the change. Which of course I know isn’t the way to do it, but it’s what people do because they focus on the change instead of the form. And nobody got that point either, just dog piled me that I was counting wrong.

[Christian Miller]

What the point being you can play the blues? Sure …

Tbh most beginners can’t play compelling phrases just using the blues notes. Probably good to start with just riffs.

You can see the Bb Bb7 Eb Eo7/Ebm6 as being a blues move in itself Bb Eb7 Bb …

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[pamosmusic]

I agree, if you can do that. I don’t think I’m being understood.

I’m having flashbacks to the thread where I said So What isn’t a beginner tune because they end up counting 24 bars of D minor to the change. Which of course I know isn’t the way to do it, but it’s what people do because they focus on the change instead of the form. And nobody got that point either, just dog piled me that I was counting wrong.

But you said I V I V I IV I V isn’t the changes.

And it is.

So we’ve kind of moved onto a separate discussion no?

I usually teach students that … then I teach them that they can play blues over that or play those changes. Then I teach them I VI ii V, and we build from there. So the changes Clint outlined are the first step in exactly what you’re describing.

if you’re teaching someone and go “just play blues” then they’re going to feel like they’re not actually learning the tune. Which they’re not.

[Christian Miller]

But you said I V I V I IV I V isn’t the changes.

And it is.

So we’ve kind of moved onto a separate discussion no?

I usually teach students that … then I teach them that they can play blues over that or play those changes. Then I teach them I VI ii V, and we build from there. So the changes Clint outlined are the first step in exactly what you’re describing.

if you’re teaching someone and go “just play blues” then they’re going to feel like they’re not actually learning the tune. Which they’re not.

NB anyone who plays G7 in bar 1 is an enemy

Other than that, it’s all cool


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[AllanAllen]

But you said I V I V I IV I V isn’t the changes.

And it is.

So we’ve kind of moved onto a separate discussion no?

I usually teach students that … then I teach them that they can play blues over that or play those changes. Then I teach them I VI ii V, and we build from there. So the changes Clint outlined are the first step in exactly what you’re describing.

if you’re teaching someone and go “just play blues” then they’re going to feel like they’re not actually learning the tune. Which they’re not.

Isn’t I V I V…. A simplification?

[pamosmusic]

Isn’t I V I V…. A simplification?

Yeah it’s the simplest way to notate the functional changes.

Aren’t you irritated that we’re making it too complicated?

(Also saying that the changes ARE I iv ii V … then you’d probably want to listen to the particular tune in question to see if and how often that’s true)