Summer of Rhythm … Changes?

[AllanAllen]

Look all this is doing in reinforcing that I shouldn't be anyone's teacher. I like rhythm changes to be I vi ii V with a litany of options. Some of them being removing the vi and ii.

[Strat-itis]

I / V7 / I / V7
I7 / IV7 / V7 / V7 or tritone for 1st A. Just I for 2nd and 3rd A.

For my reference for this simplified scale outline used for solos I use the original bass line used for I got rhythm. In Bb because roman numerals is too annoying.

1st A

Bb6 G-7 / C-7 F7 / D-7 G-7 / C-7 F7
Bb6 Bb7/D / Eb6 Eo7 / F7 F7 / C-7 F7

2nd A

Bb6 G-7 / C-7 F7 / D-7 G-7 / C-7 F7
Bb6 Bb7/D / Eb6 Eo7 / F7 / Bb6

3rd A

Bb6 G-7 / C-7 F7 / D-7 G-7 / C-7 F7
Bb6 Bb7/D / Eb6 Eo7 / F7 F7 / Bb6 F7

There are many variations to the rhythm changes A section, but if you don't follow some contour like that, it's not honoring the form and is playing in a disorganized way. If you listen to bassists play on rhythm changes solos, this is pretty much the standard outline that they hold. Imo, throwing in some blues sounds great, but no the A section is not just 'play blues'. There is a standard form for rhythm changes just like there is a standard form for jazz blues that you generally stick to. If you don't use proper organization for the A section, it is going to sound noob and wrong, just like any other form.

[pcjazz]

What the point being you can play the blues? Sure …

Tbh most beginners can’t play compelling phrases just using the blues notes. Probably good to start with just riffs.

You can see the Bb Bb7 Eb Eo7/Ebm6 as being a blues move in itself Bb Eb7 Bb …

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That’s one (two) variant(s) of the Christophe. Often the Bb7 will have the third in the bass.

[pamosmusic]

Really? IV7 of V7 is a fightin' chord?

There are so many typos in this ………

[pamosmusic]

That’s one (two) variant(s) of the Christophe. Often the Bb7 will have the third in the bass.

I call it The Little Brown Jug

[pcjazz]

I call it The Little Brown Jug

And why not?

Good old Christopher Columbus
Sailed the seas without a compass …

Ah hah hah, Ah ha hee
Little brown jug how I love thee …

I’ve got my girl
Who could ask for anything more?

[Mick-7]

Really? IV7 of V7 is a fightin' chord?

There are so many typos in this ………

More than two?

I7, how's that? I can't always tell when Christian is being facetious.

[Christian Miller]

Nah it’s just the thing that separates the bebop L33t h4xz0rz from the n00bz*

It should be G-7 in bar 1, not G7

What Barry Harris said was that in his early recordings bird never played G7 in a Bb rhythm changes, and later in his career he only played in G7 bar 3.

(In so much so have checked it seems to check out, and I expect it’s probably absolutely true.)

I like this because instead of getting two identical two bar harmonic phrases you get one four bar phrase

Bb^7 G-7 | C-7 F7 | D-7 G7 | C-7 F7

Which is the way Bird and Bud seemed to have done it

*this counts as really up to date internet slang for me im afraid


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[pcjazz]

Bb^7 G-7 | C-7 F7 | D-7 G7 | C-7 F7

Which is the way Bird and Bud seemed to have done it



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Bb^7 or Bb6 ?

[AllanAllen]

Bb^7 or Bb6 ?

Are they not the same?

[pamosmusic]

Are they not the same?

Functionally yeah, but different colors.

In practice you get more Major 6 chords than Major 7 chords as the tonic for most of the classic jazz time.

Major 7 is a little more melancholy (first chord in Misty) and a little more dissonant, which in practice makes it a smidge trickier to voice and trickier to move around in solis and arrangements.

So Major 6 is the bouncier vibe and a little more of a workhorse chord so more common in most settings.

Major 7 became a more common notation in the post CST years because it’s the chord you get from stacking thirds in the major modes.

As a soloist you do whatever you want. Make nice melodies. Often they will have the 7th and other times they’ll have the 6th and other times they’ll have both because you’re just making melodies.

As an accompanist you choose too but with context in mind, so those voicings matter more.

As an arranger you’re bound a bit more by the practicalities.

[pcjazz]

Are they not the same?

Bb6 and Bb^7 are not the same, they differ by one note. One can often substitute for the other, especially as chords of resolution although the ^7 has more residual tension/dissonance. But Christian was talking about Bud and Bird. Major seventh chords became the go-to major chords of resolution in jazz a bit later than the early bebop years. IMO Bud and Bird more typically played (inversions of) the major sixth as the tonic chord. I would be interested to learn otherwise.

Edit: just saw Peter beat me to it; I agree with him.

[pamosmusic]

I think probably Allan knows this so just file this as a general NB for other readers …

But what we’re talking about with the rhythm changes A section is essentially the same thing as the Maj7 Maj6 distinction. Same functions but different colors. We’re just doing the same thing with blocks of chords that we do routinely with individual chords.

So

Bb Gm Cm F7
Bb G7 Cm F7
Bb Dbo Cm F7
Bb C#o7 Cm C#o7
Bb Db7 Gb7 B7
Bb Ab7 Gb7 F7
and even
Bb Ab7 Eb/G Ebm/Gb
Bb Bb7/D Eb Eo7
etc etc

are all versions of

Big Bb Chord

And they can be considered different colors of that Big Bb Chord rather than completely separate entities.

So you can trade them around the same way people mentally swap Bb6 and Bb^7 depending on vibes and convenience.

[Christian Miller]

Bb^7 or Bb6 ?

Probably 6.

Well could be either. I think on the whole Bird used a plain major or maybe 6. Dm (often interpreted as Bbmaj7 in charts) in bar 3

Bb6 is the same as G-7 of course.

It depends if you do the 7-6 voice leading (in one of my posts above). If you do it starts to look a lot like a BH voice leading exercise although I never saw Barry teach RC that way.


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[Christian Miller]

Bb6 and Bb^7 are not the same, they differ by one note. One can often substitute for the other, especially as chords of resolution although the ^7 has more residual tension/dissonance. But Christian was talking about Bud and Bird. Major seventh chords became the go-to major chords of resolution in jazz a bit later than the early bebop years. IMO Bud and Bird more typically played (inversions of) the major sixth as the tonic chord. I would be interested to learn otherwise.

Edit: just saw Peter beat me to it; I agree with him.

Surprisingly large amount of melodic major seventh chords in pre war jazz. Louis liked them. Obv in bop tunes like Dewey Square use the major seventh as a colour.

That said I think Bird probably mostly used Bb or Bb6 in bar 1 of RC. Dunno, need to check out more.

The ‘end of section’ resolution tends to be the root. 5-7-1 or 5-6-1

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[pcjazz]

Surprisingly large amount of melodic major seventh chords in pre war jazz. Louis liked them.

Good to know. “Melodic” as in improv or harmony, to use Barry’s distinction?

[Christian Miller]

Good to know. “Melodic” as in improv or harmony, to use Barry’s distinction?

As in you have a 7th in the melody over a major or major 6 chord in the rhythm section.

A good example is Lil Hardin Armstrong’s Struttin’ with some Barbeque. At this point in history the rhythm section is playing plain triadic chords on the tonic by and large. But you have those prominent G’s on the Ab chord.

Another is the melody of After You’ve Gone.

I don’t think major 7th chords became commonly used as a I comping chord until way later. Not sure how much later but I notice Jim Hall doesn’t seem to use Imaj7 on Without a Song from the Bridge, for example, even though that tune has a major seventh in the melody over the I chord - instead opting for things like 6/9 chords. But I’m sure there are examples.

I think I would trace it to the 60s and the more ‘hand together’ style of the post modal pianists. But I don’t really know.

It’s interesting though so many of the trad jazz classics have major sevenths in that I end up playing them all the time in solo arrangements on guitar and banjo and yet I’d never use them in accompaniment in that style.

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[pcjazz]

As in you have a 7th in the melody over a major or major 6 chord in the rhythm section.

A good example is Lil Hardin Armstrong’s Struttin’ with some Barbeque. At this point in history the rhythm section is playing plain triadic chords on the tonic by and large. But you have those prominent G’s on the Ab chord.

Another is the melody of After You’ve Gone.

I don’t think major 7th chords became commonly used as a I comping chord until way later. Not sure how much later but I notice Jim Hall doesn’t seem to use Imaj7 on Without a Song from the Bridge, for example, even though that tune has a major seventh in the melody over the I chord - instead opting for things like 6/9 chords. But I’m sure there are examples.

I think I would trace it to the 60s and the more ‘hand together’ style of the post modal pianists. But I don’t really know.

It’s interesting though so many of the trad jazz classics have major sevenths in that I end up playing them all the time in solo arrangements on guitar and banjo and yet I’d never use them in accompaniment in that style.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. And I like Peter’s idea that the popularity of the major seventh chord in comping is an artifact of CST. Weak theory driving (ultimately) tedious harmonic practice.

Barry, as you know, taught that to get that ^7 tension on the tonic you should play the six on the fifth, i.e. G6 for C^7, which also gives the major ninth. That might work in accompanying some of the older tunes.

I also recall Barry saying that Bud played mostly out of the (7 note) major scale. Barry said his first exposure to the 8-note 6dim scales was hearing Elmo Hope’s scalar runs.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, this is what I was thinking. And I like Peter’s idea that the popularity of the major seventh chord in comping is an artifact of CST. Weak theory driving (ultimately) tedious harmonic practice.

Chords have generally acquired more independence from their original context as music history has rumbled on.

Thinking of songbook harmony which is mostly European romantic/classical influenced practice (with a little twist of blues, pentatony and colour harmony sometimes, what I think of as American touches), there are two common occurrences of the major seventh chord I can think of.

- You have the third of the key on the IV chord - incredibly common in the song book, I'm sure you can think of many examples - and slightly less frequently, on the I (as in my examples above). In both cases the seventh is in the melody.
- The other occurrence is as part of suspension chain, such as at the old baroque derived cycle 4 progression. You see this obviously in tunes like ATTYA and so on, where the melody is primarily on the third and the seventh moves as some sort of secondary voice to the third of next chord to produce a chain of dissonant, but prepared chords, which modern jazz education of course discusses as "guide tones". (It's also why I think Sondheim didn't consider the Abmaj7 in the first A of ATTYA as a tonic chord - his analysis was that the tonic was withheld until the final chord of the song. From a classical mindset, that makes sense.)

These days the distinction is I think more or less lost, because jazzers aren't taught this stuff. But then jazzers have always had a different way of hearing these non triadic notes to the classically trained songbook and film score composers - at least going from the way they wrote music.

For instance, what is slightly different about the above jazz examples is the melodic major seventh note is sat on but not resolved upwards. This is quite different from European practice. In this way of hearing the major 7th is no longer functioning as a tension, but as a resolved note.

As far as the use of major sevenths in accompaniment, I think CST or something like it became inevitable when players began to play more of a concept of both hands together, as opposed to the old dichotomy of left hand accompaniment/right hand soloing which evolved from the old stride, ragtime and 'paddle' piano approaches of the 20s. All of these older genres of piano playing featured a clear harmonic and rhythmic foundation with other stuff layered on top - which was even true of the bop players, at least harmonically.

Conceptually I can see how moving away from this old separation of the hands might push you away from the separation of the roles and see things like major 7ths as pitch sets that could be more freely used in both hands, and chord scales become rather useful. Doesn't mean that one thing drove the other, but they seemed to be at least coincidental in the post-modal players.

That in turn influenced the guitar players who were checking out the modern piano players.

These days contemporary guitarists like Ben Monder and Lage Lund sort of revel in the weirdness of inverted major seventh chords.

Obviously Barry had his own take kind of two hands together classically influenced pianistic style with the eight note scales. I find it interesting (according to Howard Rees) that Barry wasn't teaching the eight note harmony stuff until the 1980's, and I'd be interested in knowing if he played them before this time. But I think Barry in this was looking more to Chopin and Bach than Debussy and Ravel. At least from what I heard him say.

Barry, as you know, taught that to get that ^7 tension on the tonic you should play the six on the fifth, i.e. G6 for C^7, which also gives the major ninth. That might work in accompanying some of the older tunes.

Sure. I mean that relationship is actually very similar to what I just said. The G6 becomes a thing in itself, a resolved colour that has its own inherent resolutions. So in this context the E of Fmaj7 is actually the third of C6. Jordan would see this as an Am on F, potato, potahto

I also recall Barry saying that Bud played mostly out of the (7 note) major scale. Barry said his first exposure to the 8-note 6dim scales was hearing Elmo Hope’s scalar runs.

Yes, I really need to check out Elmo. It's interesting that there is a melodic genesis for him with these ideas, because I always thought they dropped out block chord practice in section and locked knuckle piano playing as a very harmonic thing. Did he elaborate?

[pcjazz]

Chords have generally acquired more independence from their original context as music history has rumbled on.

Thinking of songbook harmony which is mostly European romantic/classical influenced practice (with a little twist of blues, pentatony and colour harmony sometimes, what I think of as American touches), there are two common occurrences of the major seventh chord I can think of.

- You have the third of the key on the IV chord - incredibly common in the song book, I'm sure you can think of many examples - and slightly less frequently, on the I (as in my examples above). In both cases the seventh is in the melody.
- The other occurrence is as part of suspension chain, such as at the old baroque derived cycle 4 progression. You see this obviously in tunes like ATTYA and so on, where the melody is primarily on the third and the seventh moves as some sort of secondary voice to the third of next chord to produce a chain of dissonant, but prepared chords, which modern jazz education of course discusses as "guide tones". (It's also why I think Sondheim didn't consider the Abmaj7 in the first A of ATTYA as a tonic chord - his analysis was that the tonic was withheld until the final chord of the song. From a classical mindset, that makes sense.)

These days the distinction is I think more or less lost, because jazzers aren't taught this stuff. But then jazzers have always had a different way of hearing these non triadic notes to the classically trained songbook and film score composers - at least going from the way they wrote music.

For instance, what is slightly different about the above jazz examples is the melodic major seventh note is sat on but not resolved upwards. This is quite different from European practice. In this way of hearing the major 7th is no longer functioning as a tension, but as a resolved note.

As far as the use of major sevenths in accompaniment, I think CST or something like it became inevitable when players began to play more of a concept of both hands together, as opposed to the old dichotomy of left hand accompaniment/right hand soloing which evolved from the old stride, ragtime and 'paddle' piano approaches of the 20s. All of these older genres of piano playing featured a clear harmonic and rhythmic foundation with other stuff layered on top - which was even true of the bop players, at least harmonically.

Conceptually I can see how moving away from this old separation of the hands might push you away from the separation of the roles and see things like major 7ths as pitch sets that could be more freely used in both hands, and chord scales become rather useful. Doesn't mean that one thing drove the other, but they seemed to be at least coincidental in the post-modal players.

That in turn influenced the guitar players who were checking out the modern piano players.

These days contemporary guitarists like Ben Monder and Lage Lund sort of revel in the weirdness of inverted major seventh chords.

Obviously Barry had his own take kind of two hands together classically influenced pianistic style with the eight note scales. I find it interesting (according to Howard Rees) that Barry wasn't teaching the eight note harmony stuff until the 1980's, and I'd be interested in knowing if he played them before this time. But I think Barry in this was looking more to Chopin and Bach than Debussy and Ravel. At least from what I heard him say.



Sure. I mean that relationship is actually very similar to what I just said. The G6 becomes a thing in itself, a resolved colour that has its own inherent resolutions. So in this context the E of Fmaj7 is actually the third of C6. Jordan would see this as an Am on F, potato, potahto



Yes, I really need to check out Elmo. It's interesting that there is a melodic genesis for him with these ideas, because I always thought they dropped out block chord practice in section and locked knuckle piano playing as a very harmonic thing. Did he elaborate?

Thanks for the very full and considered reply. Re Elmo, Barry demonstrated one of the runs and discussed it with Bertha Hope in one of the Covid-era Zoom sessions. I'll look at my notes and report back if there's more to say about it.

[Christian Miller]

Thanks for the very full and considered reply. Re Elmo, Barry demonstrated one of the runs and discussed it with Bertha Hope in one of the Covid-era Zoom sessions. I'll look at my notes and report back if there's more to say about it.

I’d love to know if those zoom recordings are available somewhere. I believe there’s an archive?


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[pcjazz]

I’d love to know if those zoom recordings are available somewhere. I believe there’s an archive?

I recorded them as they occurred but they have a copyright notice so I haven’t shared my copies. They might be available through the BH Inst in NYC. I have been going through them very slowly and taking notes. The Elmo discussion is in the 13 June 2020 session. BH runs down the Maj6o scale from the third in 2 octaves and says, “I probably heard Elmo do that first. That’s where I started learning about a half step between 6 and 5. You start seeing, oh, that’s the scale, that’s the Ab major scale, you’ve got to put that half step.” Then he shows how Bird used it in Bb on the Bird with strings album (“That’s my scale”) and chats with Bertha Hope about Elmo’s influences, before showing the equivalent run in harmonic minor and discussing how to finger it on piano.

[pcjazz]

Looks like you can access the video archive by joining the Inst but not clear whether this includes the zoom sessions: Become a Member – The Barry Harris Institute of Jazz

[Christian Miller]

I recorded them as they occurred but they have a copyright notice so I haven’t shared my copies. They might be available through the BH Inst in NYC. I have been going through them very slowly and taking notes. The Elmo discussion is in the 13 June 2020 session. BH runs down the Maj6o scale from the third in 2 octaves and says, “I probably heard Elmo do that first. That’s where I started learning about a half step between 6 and 5. You start seeing, oh, that’s the scale, that’s the Ab major scale, you’ve got to put that half step.” Then he shows how Bird used it in Bb on the Bird with strings album (“That’s my scale”) and chats with Bertha Hope about Elmo’s influences, before showing the equivalent run in harmonic minor and discussing how to finger it on piano.

So that’s more like an added note rule thing then?


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[AllanAllen]

Yes, I really need to check out Elmo

I like this album