The Circular Picking School

[brent.h]

I bought one of Pasquale Grasso's masterclasses, and he talks about how he learnt his picking from his teacher, Agostino Di Giorgio, who learnt it from Chuck Wayne.

PG rejects playing or picking from the wrist because wrist motions expend and waste tonnes of energy. Grasso briefly talks about how circular picking works, but doesn't go into a lot of detail about this. He mentions holding the pick like a pen, like you're about to write something.

Here's a clearer explanation by guitar teacher Jody Fisher. He calls this Alternate Circular Picking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvanF4jX3Ic

Here's another guitar teacher, Pebber Brown, demonstrating a similar technique. He calls it Scalpel Picking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thx-HKhb-X8

Both teachers talk about thumb joint mobility.

The difference is that Fisher kinda shows how this technique is about 'pushing' the string without an angle, while Brown shows how the technique 'pushes and slices' the string at an angle.

Personally, circular picking helped me relax, not miss notes, play Prez' lines, cope at higher tempi, and my pick no longer gets stuck/trapped between strings. I feel like this picking should be the default picking for jazz guitar because it encourages clean, accurate, legato playing with little to no involvement of the wrist, forearm, or elbow. It is incredibly efficient and motion-saving. It also gives you so much control over how you wish to accent notes.

[pauln]

I've always picked this way, my hand figured it out all by itself. Glad to hear Jody emphasize how important is the loose grip, although that is the first thing that freaks someone out after playing so long with a solid firm grip. He's using alternate picking for the exercise, but this kind of picking is probably used most by economy pickers, partly because the loose grip is part of that method of picking (circle picking and economy picking are generally found together because of the common use of the loose grip).

[brent.h]

Glad to hear Jody emphasize how important is the loose grip.

Yeah, when he was explaining the loose grip portion, I felt not only this physical relief in my right hand after trying it out, but I also felt this 'psychological relief'. For the first time in my life, I felt that playing guitar was actually easy, and there was no need for my right hand to fight/struggle. Gave me so much confidence in expressing myself musically.

[RJVB]

Interesting, I'll have to check it out. I rarely use a pick but yesterday I had the crazy thought of trying to play the Brouwer etude I've been working on with one (as it actually sounds quite nice on steel strings). Usually I find that my background as a violinist helps with determining things like picking direction but this piece is tricky as there's almost always skips at least 1 string between subsequent notes (often with the higher note on the lower string, too).

What would you call the picking style Jonathan Stout uses? It looks really efficient, to the point I often wonder how he played so many notes with so little gestures.

[RJVB]

I had this email of related interest in my inbox a few days ago:
Cracking the Code interview: Wrist mechanics with Dr. Aviva Wolff

Behind a paywall, unfortunately, but there are quite a few videos by/with Aviva Wolff on YouTube.

Re: violin bowing: there too multiple schools exist that each focus on different joints are the main/leading one. According to a long-ago teacher there has been a study looking at actual muscle activations in successful players from the main different schools, that showed very little practical differences. That kind of makes sense (not in the least because at the time our tools for studying such questions were a lot more limited than they are now, and arm muscle activation patterns involving hand and esp. finger movements are extremely complicated to compare.)

[brent.h]

What would you call the picking style Jonathan Stout uses? It looks really efficient, to the point I often wonder how he played so many notes with so little gestures.

Not sure what to call it, but it's a treat to watch/hear! I think being swing player in the Allan Reuss style and leading a swing orchestra definitely impacts his playing, which is delightfully loud and clear.

On acoustic guitar, it is almost a necessity for players of these older styles to rely on the full weight of the hand/wrist/forearm + lots of downstrokes for that projection. His wrist isn't anchored, but there is some space between the wrist and the guitar. He doesn't bend his wrist like gypsy players tend to do.

On electric guitar, his wrist isn't anchored again, but this time, it is not so far from the guitar body because he rests his fingers on the pickguard. He sorta alternate picks but with a very heavy emphasis on getting as many downstrokes in as possible (a la Charlie Christian, Barney Kessel, Frank Vignola) and sweeping whenever he needs to. When he picks, he doesn't move his wrist left and right; it looks like he is turning a doorknob, which adds significantly to that bite and volume he has.

[RJVB]

On acoustic guitar, it is almost a necessity for players of these older styles to rely on the full weight of the hand/wrist/forearm + lots of downstrokes for that projection.

Very clear when he accompanies the band, much less so in the numerous solo videos he puts online.

"Turning a door knob" - if you mean the ones you have on your side of the pond then I'd call that a circular motion (but probably one involving fingers and wrist)

[dasein]

Definitely a very valid way to pick, and has been used by a lot of great players. The whole Chuck Wayne school (including Pasquale) is an obvious example, but also guys like Howard Roberts. I'm sure I'm forgetting more.

I've experimented with it on and off over the years, but it's never clicked for me. But if it works for you, run with it. There are many valid ways to pick, and what works for someone else might not work for you. When you find the right technique for you, you just know. You stop fighting the instrument.

I think one of the most important ideas that came out of Troy Grady's obsessive picking studies is that the physical motion (wrist, forearm, elbow, fingers, etc) doesn't matter so much. You can find examples of great players using almost every kind of motion. It's the actual motion of the pick that matters. And once you know what kind of pick motion you want, you can figure out how to fit it into your personal technique.

[RJVB]

I think one of the most important ideas that came out of Troy Grady's obsessive picking studies is that the physical motion (wrist, forearm, elbow, fingers, etc) doesn't matter so much. [...] It's the actual motion of the pick that matters..

That would confirm the old study on bowing that I mentioned!

[RJVB]

WTH??

This video is age-restricted and only available on YouTube.

[mr. beaumont]

No children should ever have to be exposed to Pebber Brown.

[JerryB]

Interesting thread. I became a big fan of Robert Conti after seeing him at NAMM in 2014 and again in Las Vegas. Over the last 10 years or so, I've had an opportunity to talk with several guitarists at different levels of skill. Each time I mention Robert, the economy of his right hand single note picking and perfect articulation at ridiculous tempos is always a discussion. There are also numerous comments about his picking on his YT videos. For those interested, I included a few videos:

Jerry B

[Bobby Timmons]

No children should ever have to be exposed to Pebber Brown.

Pebbz is the one guy who theory did wrong lol. He could use a tad more musicality and less theory. Although I like his clinical explanations of stuff. His intervals video is one of my favorites.

WTH??

Just cuz he swears a bit.

[pauln]

WTH??

Must be the one where he demonstrates how he practices in real time, encourages you to practice along with him in real time, begins with continuous tremolo picking for over thirty minutes while he talks and periodically informs those bailing out, "That's why you suck"... no patience for impatience.

[spencer096]

my goodness robert conti

[deacon Mark]

I think in reality any picking style can work if you practice it enough and some players gravitate towards different aspects. The circle picking to me makes sense but from my perspective I feel it is more like the pick is a little loose in my hand. Then I sort of move it and my hand and not the wrist. I think Al Di Meola uses his wrist and of course many players like him. They sound quite different than PD.

Then you start looking at flamingo players with the fingers and they go crazy. To me you have to pick (pun intended) your poison and go with what works the best depending on your playing style. To me it is much like the whole crazy Benson Picking that is talked about like it is "the" way. I just say the George Benson simply is a great player and you can use his technique, but you won't be George. Wes never had trouble with up tempo stuff............

[RJVB]

Each time I mention Robert, the economy of his right hand single note picking and perfect articulation at ridiculous tempos is always a discussion.

I stopped after the 1st, seems just unreal; he's "worse" than Jonathan Stout in the playing multiple notes without moving the right hand department. They don't sound like pull offs to me, so does he in fact to a kind of rest stroke over multiple strings?

(And the left-hand technique must be called "fluttering fingers"? )

[RJVB]

"That's why you suck"... no patience for impatience.

Hah, well, his video and audio recording skills suck too, I had no patience for that

[Christian Miller]

With respect to Pasquale, I find the wasting energy argument a bit odd. I mean, are we all so enervated and sickly that we can’t play for an entire gig without conserving our energy as much as possible? Somehow many guitarists seem to be able to pick from the wrist and go for hours…. Look at Manouche players for instance.

I mean I can barely make it down to the shops and somehow I can play entire sets of jazz guitar.

I would say the main consideration is the healthiness of the movement and its repeatability. When I play rhythm for instance, I make use of the weight of my hand which is free energy to make a stroke (although the recovery requires energy input)

What I would say instead from my own explorations of a more polyphonic hybrid technique, which is how Pasquale plays, is that picking from the wrist makes it very hard to accurately use the fingers because it moves the whole hand out of position.

As I work on Bach pieces etc I find I naturally start picking much more from the fingers. So the Chuck Wayne technique fits well with this.

I think it’s worth any guitarist exploring a range of hand and wrist movements in their playing. I find there’s a brightness of attack in wrist playing that you can’t get any other way, for instance. Most of the Chuck Wayne school players have a very rolled off tone and very even articulation. It may not be what you are hearing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brent.h]

For those interested in this, I found a few more videos demonstrating this technique:

see 1:40:

see 0:10, 2:45, 5:10

[James W]

Thanks for the videos, Brent.

Some people might find this interesting. Martin Miller's main picking technique is based on coupled finger motion with forearm rotation.

[James W]

Both Emily Remler and John Scofield use this picking motion.

I'm experimenting with this picking motion. Incidentally, I realise I must sound somewhat ridiculous using a plectrum again after over a year of fingerstyle, predominantly classical playing, but after putting work into getting one of my etudes up to a reasonable speed fingerstyle, then comparing how difficult that was with a few minutes experimenting trying to play it with a plectrum, there really was and is no comparison. I shan't go on about some issues I have with my fingerstyle technique (let's just say that it isn't devoid of one particular issue that is seemingly intractable) but since I do want to play jazz, plectrum style is the way to go. As for string-hopping, which is the longstanding problem I've had with using a plectrum, I think basing my picking motion predominantly around finger and thumb motion should solve that problem - I've been practising tremolo as per a few of the videos on this thread and, while not immediately or obviously capable as the wrist or elbow motions, with some experimentation it can be got up to speed. And it's a good way of bypassing string-hopping, which is a wrist-based problem.

[brent.h]

As for string-hopping, which is the longstanding problem I've had with using a plectrum, I think basing my picking motion predominantly around finger and thumb motion should solve that problem...

...with some experimentation it can be got up to speed. And it's a good way of bypassing string-hopping, which is a wrist-based problem.

Glad to hear that it could solve some problems for you.

And yeah, when I first switched over to this technique, I could 'feel' the technique's ceiling/potential for playing super speedy and smooth lines with enough deliberate practice with a metronome.

Besides Remler and Scofield, I just discovered that the most recent guest on Frank Vignola's Guitar Night, Yotam Silberstein, uses circular picking on his double-time lines, too. Very fluid and a treat to watch!!

[James W]

Jostein Gulbrandsen is another great exponent of this technique.

[brent.h]

So smooth!

Yeah, I came across this guy while searching for a guitar version of Salt Peanuts after seeing Pasquale play it. Didn't remember his name though haha