The Circular Picking School

[brent.h]

..

[pauln]

I've always picked this way, my hand figured it out all by itself. Glad to hear Jody emphasize how important is the loose grip, although that is the first thing that freaks someone out after playing so long with a solid firm grip. He's using alternate picking for the exercise, but this kind of picking is probably used most by economy pickers, partly because the loose grip is part of that method of picking (circle picking and economy picking are generally found together because of the common use of the loose grip).

[RJVB]

Interesting, I'll have to check it out. I rarely use a pick but yesterday I had the crazy thought of trying to play the Brouwer etude I've been working on with one (as it actually sounds quite nice on steel strings). Usually I find that my background as a violinist helps with determining things like picking direction but this piece is tricky as there's almost always skips at least 1 string between subsequent notes (often with the higher note on the lower string, too).

What would you call the picking style Jonathan Stout uses? It looks really efficient, to the point I often wonder how he played so many notes with so little gestures.

[RJVB]

I had this email of related interest in my inbox a few days ago:
Cracking the Code interview: Wrist mechanics with Dr. Aviva Wolff

Behind a paywall, unfortunately, but there are quite a few videos by/with Aviva Wolff on YouTube.

Re: violin bowing: there too multiple schools exist that each focus on different joints are the main/leading one. According to a long-ago teacher there has been a study looking at actual muscle activations in successful players from the main different schools, that showed very little practical differences. That kind of makes sense (not in the least because at the time our tools for studying such questions were a lot more limited than they are now, and arm muscle activation patterns involving hand and esp. finger movements are extremely complicated to compare.)

[RJVB]

On acoustic guitar, it is almost a necessity for players of these older styles to rely on the full weight of the hand/wrist/forearm + lots of downstrokes for that projection.

Very clear when he accompanies the band, much less so in the numerous solo videos he puts online.

"Turning a door knob" - if you mean the ones you have on your side of the pond then I'd call that a circular motion (but probably one involving fingers and wrist)

[dasein]

Definitely a very valid way to pick, and has been used by a lot of great players. The whole Chuck Wayne school (including Pasquale) is an obvious example, but also guys like Howard Roberts. I'm sure I'm forgetting more.

I've experimented with it on and off over the years, but it's never clicked for me. But if it works for you, run with it. There are many valid ways to pick, and what works for someone else might not work for you. When you find the right technique for you, you just know. You stop fighting the instrument.

I think one of the most important ideas that came out of Troy Grady's obsessive picking studies is that the physical motion (wrist, forearm, elbow, fingers, etc) doesn't matter so much. You can find examples of great players using almost every kind of motion. It's the actual motion of the pick that matters. And once you know what kind of pick motion you want, you can figure out how to fit it into your personal technique.

[RJVB]

I think one of the most important ideas that came out of Troy Grady's obsessive picking studies is that the physical motion (wrist, forearm, elbow, fingers, etc) doesn't matter so much. [...] It's the actual motion of the pick that matters..

That would confirm the old study on bowing that I mentioned!

[RJVB]

WTH??

This video is age-restricted and only available on YouTube.

[mr. beaumont]

No children should ever have to be exposed to Pebber Brown.

[JerryB]

Interesting thread. I became a big fan of Robert Conti after seeing him at NAMM in 2014 and again in Las Vegas. Over the last 10 years or so, I've had an opportunity to talk with several guitarists at different levels of skill. Each time I mention Robert, the economy of his right hand single note picking and perfect articulation at ridiculous tempos is always a discussion. There are also numerous comments about his picking on his YT videos. For those interested, I included a few videos:

Jerry B

[Bobby Timmons]

No children should ever have to be exposed to Pebber Brown.

Pebbz is the one guy who theory did wrong lol. He could use a tad more musicality and less theory. Although I like his clinical explanations of stuff. His intervals video is one of my favorites.

WTH??

Just cuz he swears a bit.

[pauln]

WTH??

Must be the one where he demonstrates how he practices in real time, encourages you to practice along with him in real time, begins with continuous tremolo picking for over thirty minutes while he talks and periodically informs those bailing out, "That's why you suck"... no patience for impatience.

[spencer096]

my goodness robert conti

[deacon Mark]

I think in reality any picking style can work if you practice it enough and some players gravitate towards different aspects. The circle picking to me makes sense but from my perspective I feel it is more like the pick is a little loose in my hand. Then I sort of move it and my hand and not the wrist. I think Al Di Meola uses his wrist and of course many players like him. They sound quite different than PD.

Then you start looking at flamingo players with the fingers and they go crazy. To me you have to pick (pun intended) your poison and go with what works the best depending on your playing style. To me it is much like the whole crazy Benson Picking that is talked about like it is "the" way. I just say the George Benson simply is a great player and you can use his technique, but you won't be George. Wes never had trouble with up tempo stuff............

[RJVB]

Each time I mention Robert, the economy of his right hand single note picking and perfect articulation at ridiculous tempos is always a discussion.

I stopped after the 1st, seems just unreal; he's "worse" than Jonathan Stout in the playing multiple notes without moving the right hand department. They don't sound like pull offs to me, so does he in fact to a kind of rest stroke over multiple strings?

(And the left-hand technique must be called "fluttering fingers"? )

[RJVB]

"That's why you suck"... no patience for impatience.

Hah, well, his video and audio recording skills suck too, I had no patience for that

[Christian Miller]

With respect to Pasquale, I find the wasting energy argument a bit odd. I mean, are we all so enervated and sickly that we can’t play for an entire gig without conserving our energy as much as possible? Somehow many guitarists seem to be able to pick from the wrist and go for hours…. Look at Manouche players for instance.

I mean I can barely make it down to the shops and somehow I can play entire sets of jazz guitar.

I would say the main consideration is the healthiness of the movement and its repeatability. When I play rhythm for instance, I make use of the weight of my hand which is free energy to make a stroke (although the recovery requires energy input)

What I would say instead from my own explorations of a more polyphonic hybrid technique, which is how Pasquale plays, is that picking from the wrist makes it very hard to accurately use the fingers because it moves the whole hand out of position.

As I work on Bach pieces etc I find I naturally start picking much more from the fingers. So the Chuck Wayne technique fits well with this.

I think it’s worth any guitarist exploring a range of hand and wrist movements in their playing. I find there’s a brightness of attack in wrist playing that you can’t get any other way, for instance. Most of the Chuck Wayne school players have a very rolled off tone and very even articulation. It may not be what you are hearing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James W]

Thanks for the videos, Brent.

Some people might find this interesting. Martin Miller's main picking technique is based on coupled finger motion with forearm rotation.

[James W]

Both Emily Remler and John Scofield use this picking motion.

I'm experimenting with this picking motion. Incidentally, I realise I must sound somewhat ridiculous using a plectrum again after over a year of fingerstyle, predominantly classical playing, but after putting work into getting one of my etudes up to a reasonable speed fingerstyle, then comparing how difficult that was with a few minutes experimenting trying to play it with a plectrum, there really was and is no comparison. I shan't go on about some issues I have with my fingerstyle technique (let's just say that it isn't devoid of one particular issue that is seemingly intractable) but since I do want to play jazz, plectrum style is the way to go. As for string-hopping, which is the longstanding problem I've had with using a plectrum, I think basing my picking motion predominantly around finger and thumb motion should solve that problem - I've been practising tremolo as per a few of the videos on this thread and, while not immediately or obviously capable as the wrist or elbow motions, with some experimentation it can be got up to speed. And it's a good way of bypassing string-hopping, which is a wrist-based problem.

[James W]

Jostein Gulbrandsen is another great exponent of this technique.

[MarkRhodes]

Not sure if this will help anyone, but you never know...

[James W]

Also worth mentioning that there's a 6 minute video about this picking motion in Troy Grady's Pickslanting Primer.

[MarkRhodes]

On a lark, I asked Grok about picks best suited to this picking method.

Q: For guitarists who want to explore circular or circle picking technique what kind of picks (shape, thickness, size, brand) are recommended?

A:Circle picking, also known as circular picking, is a technique where the thumb joint bends on the downstroke and straightens on the upstroke, causing the pick to move in a circular pattern. This allows for speed and fluidity, particularly in fast alternate picking or intricate lead playing. The choice of guitar pick for this technique significantly impacts precision, speed, control, and tone. Below are recommendations for pick shape, thickness, size, and brand tailored to circle picking, based on the technique’s demands and general principles from guitar pick selection.Shape

• Jazz III or Small, Pointed Picks: The Dunlop Jazz III is a top choice for circle picking due to its small size and sharp, pointed tip, which enhance precision and speed. The pointed tip allows for accurate string targeting, crucial for the rapid, fluid motions of circle picking. The smaller shape reduces the distance between the hand and strings, facilitating the circular motion and minimizing drag. Variations like the Dunlop Jazz III XL or John Petrucci Jazz III are slightly larger but retain the sharp tip, offering versatility for players who need a bit more grip area.guitartopreview.commusicradar.comthepickshous e.com
• Teardrop or Standard 351 with Pointed Tip: For players who find the Jazz III too small, a standard 351 shape with a pointed tip (e.g., Fender 551 or Dunlop Tortex Standard) can work. These picks are versatile and allow precise picking while providing a larger grip area, which can be helpful for maintaining control during the circular motion.ploutone.commusicradar.com
• Avoid Rounded Tips: Picks with rounded tips (e.g., some standard 351s or triangle picks) are less ideal for circle picking, as they produce a softer attack and less precision, which can hinder the clarity needed for fast, intricate lines.ehomerecordingstudio.comironageaccessories.c om

Thickness

• Medium to Heavy (0.73mm–1.5mm): Medium picks (0.73mm–0.80mm) strike a balance between flexibility and control, making them suitable for circle picking’s fluid motion while maintaining precision. Thicker picks (1.0mm–1.5mm) provide greater stability and a fuller tone, ideal for aggressive or fast picking, as they resist bending during rapid strokes. For example, the Dunlop Jazz III in 1.38mm or Tortex in 0.88mm–1.14mm are popular for their rigidity.guitartopreview.comattakpik.comthepicksho use.com
• Extra Heavy (>1.5mm): Some players, especially in genres like jazz or metal, prefer extra-heavy picks (e.g., Dunlop Jazz III Black Stiffo or ChickenPicks Badazz III at 2.0mm+) for maximum control and a robust tone. These are particularly effective for circle picking on thicker strings or lower tunings, as they transfer more energy to the strings. However, they may feel less forgiving for beginners.chickenpicks.com
• Avoid Thin Picks (<0.60mm): Thin picks (0.40mm–0.60mm) are too flexible for circle picking, leading to a loss of control and a “flappy” sound that lacks the articulation needed for this technique.stringjoy.comattakpik.com

Size

• Small to Medium: Smaller picks like the Jazz III (approximately 75% the size of a standard pick) are preferred for circle picking because they allow closer hand-to-string proximity, enhancing speed and accuracy. Medium-sized picks, such as the standard 351 shape, are also effective for players with larger hands or those who prefer a slightly larger grip area without sacrificing precision. Larger picks, like triangle or triforce picks, are less suitable due to their bulk, which can impede the fluid, circular motion.ehomerecordingstudio.comattakpik.comthepick shouse.com

Material

• Nylon: Nylon picks, like the Dunlop Nylon Standard or Jazz III Red Nylon, offer flexibility and a smooth, warm tone, which can complement circle picking’s fluid motion. Their grippy texture helps maintain control during sweaty performances, though they wear down faster.guitartopreview.comkysermusical.com
• Tortex (Delrin): Tortex picks, such as the Dunlop Tortex Standard or Tortex Jazz III, are highly recommended for their durability, matte finish, and excellent grip. They produce a bright, snappy tone and are ideal for the precision and speed required in circle picking. The powdery texture prevents slipping during rapid strokes.musicradar.comguitarplayer.combedroomguita rist.com
• Ultex: Dunlop Ultex picks are stiff and durable, producing a bright, snappy tone even at thinner gauges. They’re popular among players needing precision for fast picking techniques like circle picking, though they may feel less grippy than Tortex.groundguitar.comguitarplayer.com
• Celluloid: Celluloid picks (e.g., Fender 351 or Wavelength 351) provide a warm tone and are less durable but can work for players who prefer a traditional feel. They’re less grippy, so they may not be ideal for intense circle picking sessions unless textured.musicradar.comguitarplayer.com
• Specialty Materials (e.g., Acrylic, Metal, Wood): Acrylic picks (e.g., V-Picks) offer a tacky grip when warm and a full tonal range but are less common. Metal or wood picks are too rigid or rough for most circle picking applications, as they can produce harsh tones or excessive drag.en.wikipedia.org

Brand Recommendations

• Dunlop:
  
  • Jazz III (Red Nylon or Black Stiffo, 1.38mm): A favorite for precision and speed, ideal for circle picking in jazz, metal, or rock. The sharp tip and small size enhance accuracy.guitartopreview.commusicradar.comguitarpl ayer.com
  • Tortex Standard (0.73mm–1.14mm): Versatile for medium to heavy gauges, with a grippy texture and bright tone. The 0.88mm or 1.0mm versions are great for circle picking.guitarworld.comreddit.com
  • John Petrucci Jazz III (1.5mm): Slightly larger than the standard Jazz III, offering a balance of precision and comfort for technical playing.guitarworld.com
  • Ultex Jazz III or Standard (0.73mm–1.14mm): Stiff and bright, good for fast, articulate picking.groundguitar.com
  
  
• Fender:
  
  • Wavelength 351 (Medium to Heavy, 0.60mm–1.14mm): A celluloid pick with an embossed grip pattern, suitable for players who prefer a warmer tone and a slightly larger shape. The pointed tip aids precision.guitarplayer.com
  • 551 Shape (Medium to Heavy): A wider body with a sharper tip than the 351, good for rapid single-note lines in circle picking.musicradar.com
  
  
• Ernie Ball:
  
  • Everlast (1.14mm): A durable Delrin pick with a longer shape, ideal for circle picking on thicker strings or extended-range guitars.guitarworld.com
  
  
• ChickenPicks:
  
  • Badazz III (2.0mm+): A thick, small, jazz-shaped pick for players needing maximum control and a robust tone. Its beveled edges mimic pick slanting, easing the circular motion.chickenpicks.com
  
  
• ROMBO:
  
  • Diamond (1.35mm tip, up to 2.65mm body): A variable-thickness pick with a polished tip for reduced friction and enhanced durability, suitable for precise techniques like circle picking.rombopicks.com

Additional Considerations

• Beveled Edges: Picks with beveled edges (e.g., ROMBO Diamond, ChickenPicks) reduce string resistance, mimicking the feel of pick slanting and enhancing the fluidity of circle picking. This is especially helpful for maintaining speed without excessive effort.
• Grip and Texture: Circle picking requires a secure grip due to the rapid, repetitive motion. Picks with textured surfaces (e.g., Tortex, Max-Grip Nylon, or Wavelength’s embossed pattern) prevent slipping, especially during long sessions. Smooth picks like celluloid may require extra caution.guitargearfinder.comguitarplayer.com
• Experimentation: Since circle picking is highly personal, try a variety pack (e.g., Dunlop Tortex Variety Pack) to test different thicknesses and shapes. This helps identify the best fit for your hand size, grip style, and musical genre.guitarworld.comreddit.com
• Technique Tips: For effective circle picking, hold the pick firmly but not tightly, with only the tip exposed, to maximize control and minimize string drag. Practice small, controlled movements, anchoring your palm near the bridge for stability.yousician.comironageaccessories.comSummary
  
  For circle picking, Dunlop Jazz III (1.38mm, Red Nylon or Black Stiffo) or Tortex Standard (0.88mm–1.14mm) are excellent starting points due to their small size, pointed tips, and grippy textures. Players seeking a slightly larger option can try the Fender Wavelength 351 (Medium to Heavy) or Dunlop John Petrucci Jazz III (1.5mm). For advanced players, ChickenPicks Badazz III (2.0mm+) or ROMBO Diamond (1.35mm tip) offer specialized features like beveled edges and enhanced grip. Medium to heavy picks (0.73mm–1.5mm) in Tortex, Nylon, or Ultex materials provide the best balance of control, tone, and durability. Experiment with these options to find the pick that best suits your hand, guitar, and playing style.
  If you’d like, I can generate a chart comparing the recommended picks by shape, thickness, and material for a visual reference. Would you like me to do that?
  
  
  

[James W]

Yep, Jazz IIIs, red and black, max grip and normal, all the way for me.

[nyc chaz]

I didn't see Blue Chip mentioned in choice of picks.I have a jazz iii sized Blue Chip 1 mm in size.That pick just glides on flatwound strings with whatever picking style you choose to use.