-
Yeah . . great post princeplanet. I've got to totally agree with this. I just don't get this guy's need or desire to remain anonymous while making claims of virtuosity . . and having achieved as much without the need to work hard and practice hard to get there. By doing so, all he's accomplishing, at least in my eyes, is creating serious doubt in his credibility.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
Well, if he is legit, and he's not prepared to lend an insight to this discussion other than " I'm a top level Free player, that has mastered other styles of Jazz, and I don't practice..." - and won't tell us who he is or show us how qualified he is to make such a claim, then why bother to enter this discussion at all, unless to to gloat? Why be so mysterious?
I mean we all know the guy that wants everyone to think he's got perfect pitch, never practices, plays what he hears and it's all too easy, like he's a Magician or a Jazz God that hushes a room just by entering it... but these guys are never top level players. Nearly always lame fakers. All the real top level players I know left behind all that "mystique" BS in their youth. Mind you, Jazz could do with a bit of "attitude" from some players, but only if they can back it up. The world of Jazz sorely misses characters like Miles, just as boxing misses Ali.
Football and Basketball on the other hand....
If someone thinks so little of this forum that they're concerned about revealing their identity . . why would they wish to participate here??
-
06-16-2015 11:34 AM
-
This discussion is about emulating the pros whom have practiced the least. Then it was suggested that being a pro is not enough, but that said pro should be a top level player. There was a lack of examples of top level players who practiced very little. I am a top level player who has practiced very little, and I have offered to answer anyone's questions regarding this topic. What I will not be doing is posting any personal information or music. Sorry that I could not be more help. Originally Posted by princeplanet
-Strings
-
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, if anything, being a good free player requires skill in making melodies, unlike some streams of jazz which depend more on using a formalized language. Originally Posted by destinytot
-
Strings,
I've really been into free playing lately...not so much "non-idiomatic," or playing that eschews changes completely...more like the idea of spontaneous composition--sitting down, playing, seeing what happens.
I'd be interested to know if you'd be willing to participate in a new thread (and if so, I'll start it) that talks about all things "free," and the different types of expression possible...it'd be cool to get your opinion, including your opinion on some things I've recorded lately.
-
OK, some questions- Originally Posted by Strings
- How did you learn to play top level Bop with little practice?
- Can you play great Jazz Blues, without too much "outside"?
- Do you simply play what you hear? How did you garner the facility to put the fingers where the sounds in your head were? Trial and error?
- Have you thought about what sets you apart from us mortals that need a lot of practice to get the music to come out of our hands? Is it superior conscious memory? Muscle memory? Deep and thorough musical perception of what you're listening to?
- Can you hear a tune with non functional harmony and instinctively know what to play that "fits" as you're hearing it? Did you always have this gift, or did it need some effort?
- Can you transcribe things easier and faster than other musicians you know? Ever wonder why?
- Do you have either perfect pitch or a photographic memory? Do you share (even if just mildly) traits with those among the autistic spectrum (Asperger's etc)?
- Do you think you'd be be an even better musician if you did practice more?
- Are the musicians you play with similar in the way that they don't (or didn't) practice?
- Can you tell if someone's faking Free Jazz from listening to only a few bars? Can a faker tell that you're not faking it?
I have more, but that'll do for now. Cheers.
-
There's a guy I know, I met once and still talk with on the internet from time to time. I think it might be him. And if so, I believe it. The guy I'm thinking about has played with a who's who of the free jazz scene of the 70s, east coast. But hell. It could also be someone like Terje Rypdal. The guy I know is a very soft spoken, gentle guy who is always there to help. Or that has been my limited experience. Not what we think of as a chop meister like say Bruno or changes player like Metheny, who can be borderline free too.
Whoever it is I'd cut him some slack. He's offered to answer questions. You can chose to believe him or not.
-
It will be difficult to describe, but that is why I joined this conversation. When I first held a guitar at the age of 5 I could pick out melodies of simple children's songs. I could figure out how to play any song that I could sing very quickly. Once I figured it out, I knew it. I did not have to practice it after that. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, Row Row Row Your Boat, Three Blind Mice. Other players I met casually showed me scales and chords. Nothing was written down. I also learned from piano players who played chords for me. By age 10, I could rip through a blues and fake my way through any pop tune. I began playing out (I won't get specific here) at this time. I was playing bop by Jr. high. Practice at home was playing along with records. It was a mix of playing what the soloist was playing, playing my own lines along side the soloist, and comping. I didn't write anything down. Practicing chops came when there was something I could sing in my head, but could not play cleanly. I just played it slower and sped it up until I could play along with the recording or at the speed I wanted. Repertoire was never something I thought of working on, it just built from learning songs. When I learned a song it became part of my repertoire. Originally Posted by pushkar000
-Strings
-
The problem with this method of offering advice or answering questions, is that it requires a serious leap of faith for anyone to find credibility in advice being given from someone who refuses to identify themselves as credible. Originally Posted by Strings
If you are what you say you are, then I'd imagine there is enough knowledge already accruded by those who might listen to what you say, to be able to determine if you are credible or if you are just some sort of a fun seeking wacko. So, I guess that's cool. But, I just don't get it.?.?
Might you at least let us know what your concerns are about identifying yourself? It would be a whole lot easier to accept your position on remaining anonymous. Maybe your concerns are reasonable and justifiable.
-
It doesn't matter who he is. Yeah, it'd be nice to know, but you can take it or leave it. He doesn't sound to me like he's puffing out his chest promoting himself as some great guitarist. He seems to be willing to offer himself as an exception or example.
-
Thanks for replying. Originally Posted by Strings
So it seems that even though you did not "practice", you still put in lots of time and effort - no shortcuts no bs.
Well the lesson for the rest of us is clear - go to the recordings, learn by ear and transcribe and play along with solos.
-
Sounds like Strings has an extraordinary memory that allows him to retain musical information.
The guy I knew who learned to play guitar really quickly was like that. Once he worked through the notes of a song he heard, he retained them in his head at the position(s) he inspected. He could connect sounds with fretboard positions, in a relative manner.
The only thing he really had to practice was the technical part of the guitar. He was also a straight A student (according to him) and ended up starting some sort of computer software business, which he sold years ago for a nice profit.
He was a self-proclaimed freak, but very understanding and patient with us lesser mortals.
-
And this could be the flaw in the concept of "Emulate the pros who have practiced the least". Just because it worked for someone with incredible innate ability and/or who started at a young age and had parents who were musicians and had incredible innate ability... just because it worked for them doesn't mean it will work for someone like me (i.e. not incredible innate ability, started at an older age, parents were not musicians, etc.) Originally Posted by AlsoRan
-
Not even beans? Originally Posted by 3625
There's quite a thriving free scene in London. I don't know if people get paid for it, but sometimes it seems like there are more free gigs than straightahead. Maybe that's just my perception from the outside though.
I know I guy who plays a lot of free stuff (he recently cut a record with John Edwards - two basses) - and he plays massively old school trad 2-feel bass on the gigs I do with him.
I know quite a few trad guys who like the free thing too, or have been seriously into free music at some point (and vice versa). Freedom/restriction. Interesting interplay.
-
Yea... why not... I said very early in this post and years ago... I don't practice. Strings and I have different approaches... his sounds better for most... But hey I can also show up at a gig or session and not have heard or know the music and sight read my way through and sound like I've know it for years.
There is a different between hearing what I believe is right and also being able to hear what others want.... there generally are many possibilities... And just playing through and referencing the spelled changes is only one choice, generally just the starting basic reference. Personally what makes interesting music is the ability to create relationships that have layers of referencing changes etc...
Years ago... lots of years when there was much more live jazz and just live music listeners ... One of the bands I worked with through an agency, anyway three of the musicians in the band had perfect pitch, pianist, sax and tpt. The pianist was this Belgian musician with like six doctorates and a few masters ... was a concert violinist while he was in europe... It was fun too watch them work when vocalist would call for standards in different keys. Or when we would lock into different tonal groove from different modal reference. This was on west coast... during the early 70's sometimes after hours gigs would become somewhat free... by free I mean reactive, there was still spatial organization, but even that was open for relationships... there was still this greasy groove feel. Very different from playing on the east coast... different feel.
What always seem to help was having perfect rhythm, and be able to feel it. The perfect pitch thing is pretty easy to develop... just play gigs.(relative pitch is more useful). The photo memory thing... I don't know, I don't have it but I generally now a tune before I get through it the first time, but not from memorizing ... more from already having default or pre set forms which most music falls into.
Strings approach sounds more like you need to have special talents. I know I don't, but.... still don't practice. So there you have it... two possible approaches to get around practicing your entire life.
-
I've read this paragraph a few times, and haven't really parsed it. At face value, this is my reaction. Originally Posted by Reg
"What always seem to help was having perfect rhythm"
I'll take your word for it, I really wouldn't know. What exactly is perfect rhythm, and is it something you just *know*?
"The perfect pitch thing is pretty easy to develop... just play gigs."
Again, I'll have to take your word for it. My sense of perfect pitch is somewhat limited (I have some limited absolute pitch perception.) This may be because I haven't played enough gigs. My relative pitch is definitely not foolproof. I am having to do a lot of work in the practice room to try to improve this.
"I don't know, I don't have it but I generally now a tune before I get through it the first time, but not from memorizing ... more from already having default or pre set forms which most music falls into."
While I can 'get' the chords for a jazz standard or trad tune, my gigging experience is not yet great enough to make this leap. I can really see how this might happen if you played a huge number of gigs in a wide variety of styles. As they say the more tunes you learn, the easier it gets. At some point, you might not have to learn them any more at all, just play music.
When I read your posts Reg, the following points often come to mind:
- you are very very good at music from what you are saying. You sound a far better natural musician than me, for sure. Also you started young.
- with your skillset and the time you were on the scene you were able to play a lot more than most who are playing at the moment. Probably more than I will ever play. As a yardstick, I play around 200 dates a year. I suspect from what you say, it may have been twice this at some points - is that right?
- it's possible that this level of learning on the bandstand is no longer possible, just due to the volume of available work.
- what other ways are there of developing one's skills (e.g. solo practice)? Are these adequate replacements?
- what lessons can I draw from posts like this? Perhaps only to reevaluate my reasons for wanting to be a musician, which is always a good thing.
In a sense the development of the whole jazz college scene and the solo practice culture sounds like a reaction to the demise of this practical, bandstand learning. i.e. the social context for jazz. i.e. the gigs.Last edited by christianm77; 06-16-2015 at 08:01 PM.
-
I think that you're totally misunderstanding Reg's advice if you think he's advising you to learn on the bandstand. His whole thing is to train your ears, train your hands, come up with a good logical fingering and picking system, and then learn to sight-read.
Then he can show up and just read charts.
Most sax players are kind of like this. Ever play those gigs where you just open the Real Book and start randomly flipping to different pages because you're bored? The guitarists generally can read the chords, the sax can read the melody. I know guys that can sight read bop tunes without issue.
Imagine if you had a strong enough foundation to be able to read the melody and chords without mistakes the first time through, know enough different feels and grooves to apply whatever you want over any chords, and a soloing bag that you could put over anything? Seems reasonable to me.
-
Hey Christian...
Perfect rhythm... I take it to mean the ability to subdivide instinctively... I naturally hear what's implied from rhythmic patterns. I did study with Alan Dawsen when I was a kid at Berklee, Alan was outside the school, probable had something to do with it.... I guess a better term personally would be relative rhythm, right. I don't really know if the term actually is common practice. And I can feel it or I can think about it and consciously make choices. Drummers and percussionist always have great time when I'm on the gig. I actually dig just layin it down for great soloist.
The pitch thing, personally always gets better when playing steady gigs, not just being able to hear what's being played, but being able to hear what's coming, hearing what someone else is going to play etc... And yea I've played ALL types of gigs, from broadway shows and musicals to bluegress. Didn't I read you play around 200 gigs a year, that should be enough, but maybe you play the same music or types of gigs...that might have something to do with it. I do play at least 4 gigs a week... and this time of year it gets pretty crazy. doubles and triples... studio sessions etc... I personally sometimes overload... almost go blank from having too much music in head. That's where the no practice thing usually comes from... sometimes the last thing I want to do is practice. Seems like playing 3 or 4 gigs a week, maybe even just 2... there must be a balance...
Thanks for the comment about being good at Music... I do take a lot of pride and really that's what I do best, I'm average at soloing etc... But my comping and making other people music come alive is where I have always seem to play best. I doubt I'm that natural of a musician... but I also did start young and was very organized, made choices about how to play the guitar... and it was pretty simple after that.
That... "made choices about how to play the guitar".... If there's one point that most of the guitarist on this forum need to get... that's it. Make choices, not what other average players or teachers tell you...or non practicing pros... (me)...when you make your personal choices, there's no blame game, your responsible for your musicianship. And you get to move on.
I posted many times that the days of learning to play on the job from experienced players, as I did as a kid, just doesn't happen anymore. But there are still tons of gigs, just usually not six nights at same place. I have steady monthly gigs almost every night etc... and I'm one of the 1st call subs... I can cover... and I'm not after your gig...
... the collage thing seems to be about $.
and yea... only sleep 2 to 3 hours a night.
-
What Strings has to say about his early innate ability to replay music in his head and slow it down reminds me of Martin Taylor, though I don't think Martin would categorize himself as a 'free jazz' player.
I did note the comment about perhaps having a superior subconscious memory. Now where have I heard that before?
In any case, I thank Strings for his contribution to the discussion and hope that he or she will continue to post.
I watched a video the other night of an interview with Stanley Jordan, who attended Princeton, if I recall correctly. Came up with a new style of playing. Something special about that.
-
Here is what I think you mean by perfect pitch: The ability to recognize the name of any given note without trying and with no reference, like someone looking at a stop sign knows it is called a stop sign. They would also be able to name the key of any tonal piece of music effortlessly. Is this the same idea you are talking about? Originally Posted by princeplanet
If you played a note for me with no reference (this would need to be on a day where I have not played any music, because I could still use something I played hours earlier as a reference) I'd be confident that I could match the pitch on my guitar within a half step. I could tell you the note rather than play it, but I would just imagine where that magnetic pull would be pulling my fingers if I did have a guitar in hand. I would not be thinking note names. This seems a little different, maybe it is in a gray area.
My relative pitch has always been very strong. Having perfect pitch would probably not affect what I played, it would probably primarily affect what was happening in my head.
-StringsLast edited by Strings; 06-17-2015 at 09:13 AM.
-
In this case it's more like sensibly invested practice that will get you work. Seems like the thing to me. Originally Posted by ecj
Horn players do get into a virtuous circle with their reading - they are expected to read, they learn to do it at school, and they do lots of reading gigs. I think it's the same with the ears. Many horn players are really good at busking melodies.
These two skills - and being able to play in time - mean more to me than all the chord voicings in the world.
-
I've never heard the term. I have found from looking at books like Belson (as you have recommended elsewhere) and really focussing on subdividing, my general time feeling seems to have improved, as well as my reading. Originally Posted by Reg
Certainly being able to metrically count out different subdivisions and metrical cross rhythms is really useful for this, and in doing this you may as well learn to read. In time this becomes more instinctive, right?
Well, duh :-)
I would go with 3 or 4. But it's either crazy or quiet, curse of the self-employed! Originally Posted by Reg
I do play a lot of similar (swing/trad) gigs. I intuitively feel diversity is the way forward for me - I make a conscious decision to diversify - I'm not really into that swing/trad music enough to specialise. It's taking time, but there seems to be more variety in my gigs, now...
I don't do any reading gigs. I'm not confident I have the skillset ATM to keep the gig.
Yes. Part of the trick is to be aware that you are actually making a choice. It can be tricky sometimes. Originally Posted by Reg
-
Another thought might be if you think of jazz as a language.
As a child you don't have to practice a language. It comes naturally. Even a second language comes very easily to a child. As an adult it takes a lot more work and you may never get the facility of a native speaker.
I don't speak French, but I could probably learn with much practice. Even with great practice I might not ever be able to pull off poetry or creative storytelling.
As an adult student I may never be really fluent in jazz, but with enough practice, may be able to communicate with other "native speakers". However with perhaps a bad accent.
Does that make any sense?
-
Music might be a language, but jazz is public speaking.
-
there are lots of top players who do not/did not practice much I am sure... but this does not make a method
One cannot learn to play through 'non'practicing'....
-
I would add conversational public speaking... because we all know there are public speakers who do not give a damn if there's someone to listen to or to answer...Music might be a language, but jazz is public speaking.
it should be conversational skills which involves ability to respond, to make questions, to lead and to support etc....
in lintrature 'dialogue' or 'responsa' are the closest genres I think
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos