Emulate the pros who have practiced the least.

[Reg]

I like that analogy.... maybe having that hot Iron is not so much being born with... but how high you decide to turn it up to. If you don't want, don't have the time, whatever excuse we come up with for deciding to try and iron that wrinkly shirt before the iron is ready... or maybe even thinking the result of how good the shirt comes out is the result of just the iron and not how hot the iron is... the iron and the temp. are the same thing... anyway there are different approaches and the results are generally different.

[princeplanet]

We get better at learning to learn, so yeah, the iron gets hotter, and we need fewer reps to burn stuff in. Just sayin' it starts out luke warm or even cold for a lot of us. I always thought I was "hotter" than a lot of guys my age when I was young, I picked up thing quicker than most. Came as a rude shock when I realised that the true "gifted" musicians were white hot to my luke warm. We've all met them, the guys that hear a tune for the first time once, and not only play through it perfectly, but never forget. Or they hear a very tricky 2 bar lick that would take most of us an hour to get down cold, and they play it straight back, in all 12 keys if they want (pretty tricky on horn or piano).

Let's face it, some folks have that deadly combination of perfect pitch and photographic memory. I remember reading a story about how a great young sax player (I forgot his name) who was friends with both a young Jackie NcLean and the young Sonny Rollins, suddenly quit the horn when he saw how good Sonny had gotten within a few months (apparently after hearing Bird on Tenor bootlegs). Can't we all relate to that? I can remember being a teenage hot shot that could copy any rock solo I heard, and then hearing a live Benson "Take Five" cassette that just defeated me, but not for want of trying, I mean i figured it out eventually and could kinda play it but it sounded so shitty compared to the original, just never controlled it. But that wasn't the demoralising part! With Page Clapton, Hendrix etc I could get the notes, the phrasing, the sound as well as the style, so that I could improvise in that vain by making up my own version of that "language". But from listening to GB, Bird or Coltrane, I quickly realised I had no idea how they were coming up with that language, it wasn't like Greek or Chinese, it was Martian!!

So yeah, I quit.... for a while.... No-one told me they were freaks of nature, I just assumed I was too stupid to figure it out, and that I never would. The fact that I thought all the rock and blues guys were even stupider than me was no consolation whatsoever! I had to mature a bit before I realised music wan't a race against others. But I still feel that learning music is a race against time. Life is short, yet there is so much to learn. Ain't that right Jonzo?

[eddy b.]

Just a little true story I want to share.. I have taught close to five hundred private students since 1994, in that time I have had fifteen of those kids go on to study music at the collegiate level, of those there are five who graduated with a degree in music. I have had one...(one student that learned jazz guitar to a level where he could do a two hour gig) learn to play in fourteen months. Amazing. Well his mother is a professional harpist, his father is the principal bassist for the Louisiana Philharmonic Orchestra, his grandfather is considered one of the top orchestral trombonists ever. This kid had ears for days, is a walking encyclopedia of music and is actually a cellist first and foremost. He is currently studying Cello at the Cleveland Institute of Music, (the feeder school for arguably America's best orchestra) on a full scholarship. My point is that vast majority of us including ME have to work our a***s off to play for real, to where strangers give you money to do it and tell you that you're great and man are they glad they got to hear you do your thing. There ain't nothin to it but to do it!!!!! So get to practicing whatever makes you want to practice more BUT more importantly book a gig even a free one at a nursing home and just start playing for real in front of people that need music, the gig will teach you what you need to practice, Do It !!!! Do it till you're satisfied!!!

[eddy b.]

That's exactly my point Goldenwave the kid was way beyond halfway there when he came to me for lessons. The question of best practices for how to learn with the least amount of work in the fastest period of time is this kid. Have amazing parents that play and practice in front of you all the time, come to guitar from the cello having begun cello at 6 years of age and then practice guitar and cello hours and hours per day. And what he practiced was transcribing tunes and reading tunes from the realbook. He is a super rare talent. So the idea of my post is the only shortcut is hard hard time in the shed learning from the masters, learn tons of tunes from many genres,developing ears and learning to read. Anything else is delusional at best.

[destinytot]

If you can get someone to record your playing on a few gigs, you can prioritise and personalise what you practise. Infographic from the excellent Ethical Island blog:

[destinytot]

I see little value in practising without purpose. It probably does more harm than good, because one ends up repeating what one knows - including phrases that work but sound forced, causing them to become 'fossilised'.

This happened to me, so I deliberately stopped playing those phrases, concentrated on other areas of music, and set clear goals for myself. Whenever I fall back on those phrases, I take it as a sign of limited musical vocabulary - and an indication of what to focus on. Priorities for me are sounds I can hear clearly but can't quite grab/reach - though I'm on the threshold of doing so.

Ultimately, it comes down to building the right kind of chops for the music you want to play. "Practise smart" for 'data' skills; "Chop wood, carry water" for 'motor skills'.

[henryrobinett]

In terms of being a top level player, do you mean we would know your name or do you mean you play at the level of a top level player? And who might you sound like so we could get an idea of what you're talking about?

[destinytot]

For what it's worth, I got to observe the practice habits of one of the most formidable bebop guitarists that ever lived while he stayed with me for several months many years ago. He would play the same two-bar phrase over and over again, for (literally) hours on end. What really struck me was that he'd look at the neck while 'practising' - or whatever he was doing - but never while playing. His name was Sean Levitt (then - he later went by Sean O'Rourke):

[Reg]

So I'm not sure what the last few posts were saying... get the physical thing together first.... or get the physical thing together playing tunes.

The kid obviously had the physical aspects together before he started guitar and made a quick transition to guitar.

So that's where I don't get the comments... so when he started guitar... did he use tunes etc... to develop his guitar skill and also the understandings of what it is to play Jazz. Did he get to the level of being a jazz guitarist.

Another interesting point... out of 500 students... one almost became a jazz guitarist. Maybe, did the kid actually play jazz gigs, or was he just able to play jazz tunes, somewhat in the classical tradition. Memorize notated music and perform etc...

I'm still interested... I've only taught a few young students, and all of them went on to become good musicians. Most became teachers/babysiters, because that's where they make the most money, they all went on to gig, generally not jazz

I help lots of working and older guitarist... generally just very physical things, fingerings, picking and hand positions... usually to just develop better chops, (technique to play what they want and get out of ruts).)

All the kids who seem to be ahead of the curve... have technique at an early age. Maybe not good feel and understanding etc...

But I don't know of any kid who was noticed because he could play slow, I'm sure there are, just don't know of any.

So yea play jazz tunes... and listen... but if you don't get your skills and technique together don't expect that much, your not going to have that many choices. Which is really alright, when you come right down to what it's all about... you better enjoy life... right.

[Strings]

So can we hear you? And how long have you been playing? Did you play any other instruments before, during or after playing the guitar? Are you saying you no longer practice or that you NEVER practiced much? Some guys did all of their practicing in their early years, I mean very early and never have to practice much after that. Their physical skills were acquired before 10 years or so. Or are you saying you never PRACTICED but did a lot of playing at home? Then by the time you started gigging you stopped even doing that?

And you play bop guitar? What style?

I would prefer to remain anonymous for the purpose of this forum. I began playing guitar at age 5, and started playing out at age 10. I never practiced much, but you are correct that I did play a lot at home. I stopped playing at home by high school. I play free jazz.

[Pocket Player]

Id love to hear ya play Strings ! i respect your anonymity ! Ya don't need to show your name or face. but would love to see your hands dance across the fret board. and see your groove . You obviously don't have too, i just love watching top players hands move across the strings. As i'm sure we all do !

[mr. beaumont]

I think I know who it is, but I ain't tellin.'

If I'm right, he's a cool guy and a heck of a player.

[henryrobinett]

I would prefer to remain anonymous for the purpose of this forum. I began playing guitar at age 5, and started playing out at age 10. I never practiced much, but you are correct that I did play a lot at home. I stopped playing at home by high school. I play free jazz.

Fair enough. I never understood anonymity but OK. Free jazz. Like Spencer Barefield? Derek Baily? Blood Ulmer?

It's been my experience that people who start out very young have hands that grow into the instrument, so they don't HAVE to practice long and hard to maintain chops.

[grahambop]

It's been my experience that people who start out very young have hands that grow into the instrument, so they don't HAVE to practice long and hard to maintain chops.

I don't know any 'name' jazz musicians, but I do know someone who won BBC Young Musician of the Year. She started playing and having lessons at about age 5. So starting that young does seem to be a big factor.

[targuit]

There is a fellow I was listening to last night - Rodney Jenkins. Playing 'Round Midnight. Great taste and feel.

Anyway, to address Strings - welcome and thanks for your input. Did you have any formal training whatsoever? And if this is George Benson, just nod three times....

[dasein]

I play free jazz.

I would prefer to remain anonymous for the purpose of this forum. I began playing guitar at age 5, and started playing out at age 10.

i also have an idea of who you are, but i will respect your wishes for anonymity.

i hope that you stick around and contribute as you see fit.

[princeplanet]

Not at all. I would be happy to answer any questions.

Cool, my question is - does anyone really have to practice much to play Free Jazz?

[mr. beaumont]

Well...a lot of free players have great technical facility, for one.

playing free well ain't easy.

[targuit]

Getting back to the original thread, apart from those anointed few who seem to play practically straight from the cradle, to the subject of efficient practice. Plus a few observations.

Tonight I practiced from around 4:30 to just now. Very specific practice. Joe Pass night on YouTube. I just pull up various Joe Pass videos and play along. My approach is also to note the songs covered and Joe's key choice, though I might note a difference preference for vocal accompaniment.

This is rather goal oriented in that I am trying to consolidate my solo playing both as instrumentals but also solo guitar plus vocals towards trying to develop well rehearsed song sets to try and get a few gigs and earn a few dollars. I realize how difficult that will be in this economy and focusing on jazz standards, but that is part of a plan to try and survive when I close down my medical practice at the end of September. I hope to find some other perhaps medical related work to provide income to my family, but nothing certain. And I don't think I'll be able to get hired to work in a hospital as I don't currently have an EMR in my office and my experience with them is very limited - crappy as those POS are in reality, but it is the current reality. So this is not just hobby stuff but pretty serious.

Back to the practice. One thing I need to do soon is reorganize my musical resources. I have my old legacy Sibelius G7 on the same computer that we use as a family - a PC based desktop. So I can't run my Sibelius software concurrently with watching videos on YouTube and playing along. I have an extensive library of jazz standards transcriptions in my Sibelius library that I created. What I would like to do is to put the Sibelius software on my MacBook, but a few problems exist. The G7 version is around ten years old or so and I have already used it on a previous PC, so I have used up my license permissions. I could get a new version of the inexpensive starter Sibelius version and I presume I could transfer my wav files to the MacBook. Then I could run the MacBook with the volume off to stream the transcription as I play along and listen to the YT videos.

I know my obsession with working with Sibelius bothers some, but while I don't need a transcription in front of me to play these tunes, I find a synchronicity thing in playing along to reading the notation. Simply, I like to rehearse that way to really ingrain a tune in my mind. Not to mention the issue of having lyrics in front of you. In a performance situation I would love to have this option (silent streaming of a transcription on an iPad or my MacBook) as a back up. Not using backing tracks, just streaming the notation and especially the lyrics.

One last observation - I have so many tunes and sometimes multiple versions of music I created on Sibelius that I have forgotten about. After doing my Joe Pass workout practice, I closed YT and opened Sibelius. The last thing I listened to was a transcription I did for jazz trio of Estate in Dm. I don't often do more than two staves of music as melody and (guitar) accompaniment, but in this case I had the melody voiced as orchestral strings, virtual acoustic bass, and a piano part that I had played in real time into the notation. I forgot just how cool this version of the song sounded. I think I will record the arrangement I created into my Korg and then play guitar and sing the vocal as "live" tracks.

I think I will try this approach with some other tunes in the sets to get some different instrumentation and flavor into the stuff I want to put up on my YT channel. Anyway, hopefully this post has not wandered too far from the point about efficient practice. I think this approach is very efficient in that it combines reading, playing, improvising and rehearsing into a two hour time frame that is very effective for me.

[destinytot]

Cool, my question is - does anyone really have to practice much to play Free Jazz?

I was wondering about that, too.

I think that, as an Art form, Free Jazz can reach sublime heights. I've always admired and respected it and its proponents as noble, principled explorers. They may need audiences to play, but they don't play for audiences. The players interact by means of sensitive listening and mutual musical responses. This interaction draws on an extraordinarily wide emotional range translated into sound.

I seems to me that it is the very word Free that characterizes that music on the planes of both content and expression. Free Jazz often embraces jazz tradition in order to surpass it.

I would think that preparation for playing Free Jazz would need to be as thorough* and appropriate as for playing any other form of music.

In view of the degree to which its legacy of values resonates around the world, I suspect practising to play Free Jazz has more to do with 'being' than with 'doing'.

EDIT Actually, I think that the Free player is the superior player. I don't aspire to playing Free Jazz, but I do aspire to being a Time Lord

[nick1994]

To me free jazz is the highest level of jazz. The thing is that people might assume that free players don't really know what they are doing but they do. I think you can hear the difference between a vague aproximation and solid musical statement.

[christianm77]

I was wondering about that, too.

I think that, as an Art form, Free Jazz can reach sublime heights. I've always admired and respected it and its proponents as noble, principled explorers. They may need audiences to play, but they don't play for audiences. The players interact by means of sensitive listening and mutual musical responses. This interaction draws on an extraordinarily wide emotional range translated into sound.

I seems to me that it is the very word Free that characterizes that music on the planes of both content and expression. Free Jazz often embraces jazz tradition in order to surpass it.

I would think that preparation for playing Free Jazz would need to be as thorough* and appropriate as for playing any other form of music.

In view of the degree to which its legacy of values resonates around the world, I suspect practising to play Free Jazz has more to do with 'being' than with 'doing'.

EDIT Actually, I think that the Free player is the superior player. I don't aspire to playing Free Jazz, but I do aspire to being a Time Lord

I think it depends what practice is. If you are aiming to learn patterns and so on on the instrument so that you can pretend to be improvising when inspiration deserts you on the bandstand (I don't mean this sarcastically BTW) or as a jumping off point, I can't see that this would be useful to a free player.

On the other hand in my limited experience of free music, I can think of several things that would be useful to practice

- listening
- getting in the 'zone'
- developing extended techniques and sounds (which can be hard to produce)
- timing improvisations
- listening back and critiquing/developing (more like composition, but some improvisers seem to like to work in this less pure way.)
I'm sure others could think of loads more. These are very useful exercises for all improvisors, needless to say, not just free guys.

Many of these exercises may in fact be practiced just as well in groups, which makes me wonder what the split between private practice and playing in groups should be. It seems likely in previous generations, musicians played in groups a lot more, and many say that their biggest learning experience at college was playing with their classmates and teachers.

[destinytot]

These are very useful exercises for all improvisors, needless to say, not just free guys.

And not just for playing music, either.

It isn't the music that I value about Free Jazz but an ideal of negative freedom I perceive in it.

[princeplanet]

Well, if he is legit, and he's not prepared to lend an insight to this discussion other than " I'm a top level Free player, that has mastered other styles of Jazz, and I don't practice..." - and won't tell us who he is or show us how qualified he is to make such a claim, then why bother to enter this discussion at all, unless to to gloat? Why be so mysterious?

I mean we all know the guy that wants everyone to think he's got perfect pitch, never practices, plays what he hears and it's all too easy, like he's a Magician or a Jazz God that hushes a room just by entering it... but these guys are never top level players. Nearly always lame fakers. All the real top level players I know left behind all that "mystique" BS in their youth. Mind you, Jazz could do with a bit of "attitude" from some players, but only if they can back it up. The world of Jazz sorely misses characters like Miles, just as boxing misses Ali.

Football and Basketball on the other hand....

[pushkar000]

Strings, if you're reading, can you tell us how you got to the level you are?
Learning on the bandstand? Or some specific approach to the hours you did practice? Getting your chops first? Repertoire first? Something unique that worked for you?