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I think Trane was influenced by Dexter Gordon quite a bit. There's a certain similarity in their sound, i.e. quite forceful, hard-edged, and that sort of 'wail/cry' on long notes sometimes. Dexter already sounded like that when Trane came along.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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06-12-2015 11:42 AM
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I think if you consider players who at least anecdotally, are not thought to have spent hours locked away doing tons of scales, theory, technical exercises etc. then you might come up with people like Wes, Django, Chet Baker, for example. Of course this is guesswork, but one common factor it seems to me is that they all had incredible ears, so perhaps could pick things up faster than most, and they tended to get out and start playing gigs quite early on. At least that's how it seems to me, from reading the books about them and so on. I'm not saying they didn't practice anything, but the impression you get from the available accounts does not seem to suggest years of woodshedding with a scale book or something. Originally Posted by Jonzo
So great ears and early exposure to regular gigs playing with other good musicians, might be a factor in their rapid development?
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“Playing jazz” is an incredibly ambiguous goal, so the search for a one size fits all method falls apart right there.
For example, I was in the recording studio a while back with a well-respected Chicago bassist. (Played with Joe Henderson, Woody Shaw, Hank Jones and so on) As we were listening back to a take of a duo tune, he nodded approvingly and said, “That’s jazz.” I must have seemed puzzled, because he followed up with “Most people who set out to play jazz never really get there….”
So by that standard, anyone who gets it together in the course of a single lifetime is an incredibly efficient learner. I've had the good fortune to get to know guitarists spanning the history of jazz, from Larry Lucie (who played with Jelly Roll Morton!) to Mike Moreno, and many in-between. Spend enough time with those cats, and you start to see that everybody sort of does it differently, but everybody sort of does it the same, too. It’s art, if you’re serious, jump in and fight to find your own path…..
PK
Welcome to PaulKogut.com
http://youtube.com/paulkogutmusic
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Really great posts all around in the last couple pages.
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Well, I participated, gave some opinion and, have to notice, above 5 things are very far from what I have said. I agree they are good way to go in becoming good and complete musician, but I don't think that's overly efficient way for becoming able to succesfully cover situations demanding professional results So take some care before you put us all to one same "everyone" box, because we are not. Originally Posted by pushkar000
No hard feelings, just to make it clear and prolongue this wonderfull thread.
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Recording one's playing while usually playing with a rhythm (whether metronome clicks or drums/percussion tracks) was not mentioned (or enough- I did not read the thread very carefully). This will make a great difference as it will create a feedback (or closed loop) system which in most learning paradigms is essential for efficiency. Listening to how much one sucks compared to the great ones is useful in two ways: (1) you can quit and save a lot of time that way or (2) you can work on fixing what is clearly problematic whether that be time, phrasing, tone/attack or finding nice harmonic tensions before moving on to other levels :-)
I did not add taking lessons with clear goal posts or benchmarks because the OP was about "practicing". Obviously, a teacher who values your near-future independence is a gigantic asset in efficient growth as a player.
If you don't want to be a pro sooner rather than later (e.g. I don't at this time), then you can relax all this efficiency crap and enjoy the moment(s) of joy that comes from creating music alternating with suffering the pains from trying to overcome your outer and inner limitations in chops/hearing without paying attention to how long it takes you to get "there".
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Yes the sound was similar. He was also influenced by Rollins. But the motion of musical thought and lines and harmonic content was remarkably different. As a guitarist I can't apply much from Trane's sound. But I can the other.
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As others are saying, there is no true answer. Everyone that plays music well has spent a good amount of years dedicating countless hours a day to music. Some people do it over their school years, so it's not noticeable and by the time they come out of school, they're playing a lot already. Some guys don't, and do it in later years, and it's frustrating because guys younger than them are touring the world. But you need to spend many hours practicing. There's no way around it.
I'm thinking in more extreme examples, such as Glasper. He played a same style for the duration of about 4 or so records, and that stuff got old really quickly. For a second he kind of elaborated on his style, but I don't think he succeeded in creating musically strong material, and produced two more records with Black Radio. Of course, you might disagree with me. Maybe because of personal tastes, or maybe because you can argue that he won Grammy's with those records, but the truth is that the material is pretty simplistic and, to me, a little boring. Originally Posted by christianm77
But really, my concern isn't that an artist completely change their style. Of course, you need that thing that is still you, and as you say, it's great to hear yourself ten years back and recognize your own sound. What I look for in musicians is that sense of liveliness and hunger. I enjoy listening to people who like exploring new things. Some great examples are people like (and I'll give examples): John Escreet, who's records explore different styles of composition, free music, usage of string ensembles, etc. Tyshawn Sorey, who explores composition in really extreme styles, and I would probably not call his music jazz, even though he's one of the most swinging drummers out there. I always like to mention Steve Coleman, who approaches his music from such an outside-the-box perspective, comparing music to pretty unrelated things like the body's nervous system, planetary movements, etc. There are many other guys I could mention, but they all sound like themselves, regardless of the context
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So, what I am picking up here is...
It will not be beneficial for me to emulate the practice methods of great players who learned quickly.
It will be beneficial for me to emulate your practice methods.
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No, it will be beneficial to emulate your own practice methods.
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people can only say what works for them. practicing like pat metheny might work for him but it might not work for you or it might work for you. only you can know what's beneficial for your playing.
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Learning quickly is always relative. What a lot of people don't see is the time someone puts into their instrument. You see the guy one day and then a couple of months later and the guy can play really well! Suddenly it seems. The guy probably played constantly. For myself, the only person I know -- in junior high and high school, pretty much all I did was play guitar. I got home from school and I played. No one saw that. I was in high school jazz band and a funk dance band and I taught first period and last period guitar classes. I had my hands on the guitar all day. It takes playing guitar a lot, not less. It takes a passion for it. It takes being systematic and being able to locate your problem areas. That's one reason one approach won't work for everyone. Everyone has specific problems areas. When you figured out how to analyze what those areas are and how to come up with solutions, you're almost there. But one size cannot fit all.
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What's your current practice routine look like? How can you improve it?
That's what he means ... The discussion is weird to people because no one starts from zero. You've been playing for how long? You've already got a baseline ... efficiency depends on what you're working on now and where you are with your playing.
So what are you working on?
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The physical aspects of learning to play jazz are not complicated.... any kid can get it together, adults sometimes are to full of themselves and worried about what others think.
The only reason it takes more time for some is their not organized,
The mental aspect of playing Jazz, not just playing casually etc... performing jazz live... all the BS... if you need the facial expression, that feeling etc... that may never happen... some musicians just can't perform when the seat gets hot etc...
I don't know why, but suspect it's from not having the physical aspects together.
I know I've been performing since my teens... and had the physical thing together early.
When you sight read well and have chops, you can't sight read well with out chops, (good technique)... and also understand music... the performance thing is easy, it actually become where you actually perform. Gigs help motivate... they make the answer very clear. Play five or six unrehearsed different style jazz gigs... your eyes will open up...maybe even the ears.
I think the question is basically BS, who really doesn't know what it takes to get your performance skills together.
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I was teaching a guitar class in a community college. I had a student come up to me, conspiratorially and ask what the real short cut was. He told me he was a graduate student in physics at UC Davis. He said as a student he learned there are always short cuts. I looked at him and laughed. I said seriously, the short cut is to practice. THAT IS the short cut. All the worrying about strings gauges, setting up the instrument, perusing guitar shops, looking at eBay, youtube, forums, buying gear, buy books -- they're all diversions from the task at hand. They all make the journey long and arduous. One foot in front of the other. And as I said earlier, at some point is DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO! Play the guitar every day. Yes, you can be better organized. Of course. But the best way to get good fast is to play everyday. And love it. Have fun with it. THEN get a teacher. Take the time to find a great teacher. But PLAY.
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This reminds me of a book I read, I think it's called Guitar Zero, where this guy tries to learn the guitar in a year. Along the way he interviews some famous players for advice. One was Les Paul who he saw playing at the Iridium club (I think). When he asked Les Paul what the secret was, he just said 'Practice!' and walked off.
The guy was expecting some 'magic formula' so at first he was pretty annoyed, he thought it was just a slick answer that Les Paul had come up with for every time he got asked this question.
But later, on reflection, he realised it was absolutely correct, and that Les Paul was giving him a totally straight answer to the question.
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I think the 'answer' to the question as posed depends mightily upon where you are in your progress. The answer for a beginner or intermediate player is different than the response for an advanced player. In any case, I think whatever practice routine you adopt should be oriented around the concrete goal of learning to play standards. Even theoretical study should be grounded in concrete examples from real tunes. At least you have a clear cut objective and you can accomplish a defined task as you master tunes.
On the other hand, a beginner or intermediate player must be sure to have a sound technical foundation. The definition of that may vary according to your early training, but it is a necessary step regardless of your orientation.
I also think that if you can afford lessons from a "master" guitarist, that can accelerate your progress immeasurably if you are a good student. It is like a jungle guide hacking a path for you.
If you reflect on your own progress, you can retrospectively see the steps along the way. I knew the fret board, diatonic scales, fretting and picking technique from the second and third year of my classical training by the age of fourteen or fifteen. But at that point I was playing in rock bands and avidly developing my ears learning rock and country songs. By my early twenties I was focused on George Benson, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, and other artists while I still was working consistently on my classical repertoire.
I never took a formal lesson after I stopped classical guitar lessons around the age of fifteen or so. So in terms of jazz I am self-taught, though I always considered the greats like Pass and Benson as my "mentors". What would have accelerated my learning curve would have been to have today's technological tools like Transcribe and Sibelius available to me in my early twenties. But you are a product of your times. And there is no opportunity to reset and redo the past.Last edited by targuit; 06-13-2015 at 01:49 PM.
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Don't listen to jays last statement... your a product of yourself.... the only thing or one that keeps you from becoming, a pro level guitarist is yourself.
lessons are cool, but generally only if you need babysitting... When i give lessons, I watch and listen to the player for just a few seconds... and I know where he or she is at and what need fixing, don't really listen to what they say they can play.
Then lay them out for generally a years worth of work ... when they come back for more... again it only takes a few seconds to see and hear where their at...make some physical corrections... the hands, body and guitar positions... very little playing, I don't want to waste their time... and I don't have any extra.
Once they have the physical thing together, I start working on the skill of playing music, the standard BS and understanding what your playing. A few get to that point...
There's no point in being taught to play what you physically can't. And I sure don't want to teach them to sound lousy.
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"There's no point in being taught to play what you physically can't."
Reg, I have trouble with that last statement. When I listen to something on a CD, Radio, what ever. I can't physically play it but if I keep at it, it will come. Learning to play it by ear.
Maybe I don't understand what you mean?
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Wow !! took me 4 days of reading,now i"m finally at the end of this post !!! I've have spent my life looking for shortcuts, only to find out there is none. it all come's down to doing and more doing,to be good at anything.
I'd also like to point out i never had any natural talent at anything i've learn to master in my life. and only consider now, at that point. to really be at the starting point, of my personal learning and development. cause i dont have to even think about the fundamentals and technique. i can just create now and explore freely and develop as a artist,not a student. and all the people who would call me a pro(not on the guitar) are way below my level. but to me.... im not a pro.... just someone that spent way more time doing...instead of talking about it....and still have the rest of my life to see how far i can take a given skill.and how endless that task is... Now in the job i do !!! i get to meet and spend days with some of the smartest richest people on this planet. and do my best to learn everything i can from anyone i come in contact with. but i have made 1 importation observation. 1 of my clients is one of the best brain doctor in my country(Canada) and the other is a top heart doctor. both great friends. but what shocks me is. these guys are some of the dumbest people i've ever met. outside the operating room they barely function in the real world. Why is that? and i see this all the time. they seem to be missing every other life skill,other then the 1 they preform. and when the writing is clearly on the wall.... they see nothing.... just a observation. but it seem to be repeating itself over and over again.... Thanks Guys for all the amazing advice in these pages. The writing is clearly on the walls for all to see.... that can see.... not everyone is meant to play jazz... that why it's jazz. because with out the love of music, and pure fascination(adiction) with learning to play your instrument, its unattainable . addiction to playing is you answer.
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Hey edh, Originally Posted by edh
So I believe the best and fasted approach to learning to play jazz guitar is separating the physical skills and the performance skills... learning to play something from the radio etc... when you don't have the physical skill develops skills for a specific performance... the organization for developing the physical skill is to be able to perform whatever your trying to be able to perform... Rather than developing physical skills and technique organized to perform all performance jazz, and then using those skills to perform.
Bad technique is usually developed from those momentary learning of a tune etc... when you don't already have the skills together. That's what i mean when I say teachers are usually baby sitters... their suppose to keep that from happening.
Jazz is not like learning classical or a notated tradition of performance... generally the notation comes from the performances. That point always creates a debate etc... but the learning of tunes works, but generally only to a point. And to get past that point and be able to perform jazz live and at the speed of jazz... I believe there is a better approach.
I still believe in learning tunes... just not for developing technical skills. learning tunes is for performance skills and the other theoretical and thinking aspects of performance, after you've already developed the physical skills.
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What happened to "Debby?" Originally Posted by targuit
I'd really like to hear your voice plus one guitar. No overdubs, no exyra guitar, no double tracked vocals. Just play, like i was seeing you live.
i feel i could almost guarantee it'd be the best recording you ever posted here and that it would sound great.
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I've seen this too, mainly with doctors, but with some musicians too. I think it's this: People who spend their life in books and studying and trying to get ahead all day, everyday, make little time for life. So they're often socially retarded. I've known some brilliant doctors who were junior high in terms of relationships. No clue. None. And making some of the stupidest life decisions you could imagine. I call this being "earth stupid." Might be smart in school, but doesn't know the basic functioning of earth and life. I've known artists, writers like this too. Introverted. Originally Posted by Pocket Player
Coltrane was pretty socially backwards from what I've heard. He was the kind of person, it was told to me, who couldn't sit down to dinner as an invited guest. He'd be nervous and soon ask where the restroom was. He'd take his horn in there and practice for the rest of the evening.
For most of us there's balance in all things. Things were out of balances for me in my high school, late teens and early 20s. But you know, women got me out of that.
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I believe in getting down to the nitty gritty as regards 'efficient practice'. Today I'm recording (again) a version of Estate by Bruno Martino, that beautiful ballad. I'm trying to decide specifically which key to record in which is best for vocals more so than just for instrumental. For example, I like playing instrumentally in the key of Bm on this tune, but that is a bit low for a tenor range which is more comfortable in Dm or Em. Bocelli does the tune in Fm, which is fine for his operatic trained tenor.
In any case I am reviewing some sheet music of the tune in Dm. This is efficient because I have the melody written out on the melody staff and the chords (Dm7(9) ) on the staff below. Although I do not need the sheet music at this point to play the song as a chord melody piece, I use it for reinforcement and to help stimulate ideas in terms of how I voice lead the music and determine my transitions measure to measure. To play something in first position or fifth fret position, for example. Finally, if I had the lyrics written in (which in this case I do not), I would have a lyrical place marker for verse transitions, chorus, and bridge, though one also gains that organizational info from the notation directly - repeats, double stops, etc.
In one sense though, sometimes such a conscious, organizational approach can be contrary to the best flow of the work. In other words, when you just perform the song "live" so to speak, listening to the music, you can bypass this more analytical type study. Nonetheless, this type of study can be a great prelude to the more organic "listening to the music" performance.
Anyway, that is what I'm doing with this song and with one or two more that I hope to record today. So I'm positing a couple of examples about efficiency in practice. One - knowing how to read notation is very helpful for analyzing a song and for 'studying' the music, reinforcing your auditory learning. Two, this practice is very concretely directed to learning or improvising better on this particular song. In the process, you also learn jazz moments and movements that will improve your jazz playing skills on other tunes. Or perhaps as Reg might say, you learn to play something you could not imagine before because you lack the physical skills. I would add that some melodies just play better in some keys than others.
In any case this is the beginning of my Sunday practice. I often overestimate how quickly I record, but I will shoot for two or three songs today.
addendum: Hey, Jeff! Thanks for the vote of confidence. I didn't forget WFDebby - I just got distracted by The Way You Look Tonight. Easy for someone with probable ADHD.
Debby is one of those 'other' tunes I'd like to track today.BTW, one way to listen to any of my recordings as just guitar plus vocal is just to listen to stage left via headphones. I usually pan 'rhythm' guitar stage left and any second guitar track stage right, with vocal usually centered. In the case of the Jerome Kern tune, I recorded vocals and guitar simultaneously live, so you hear that in the left headphone. I usually mix mostly as a headphone mix, though before I record the CD-R, I try to go through my near-field active monitors for mixing. Sometimes I'm not sure it is worth going that step given it is just about panning right or left a bit more or less. I cut out any percussion, though I did record to a click - actually in this case to the bossa nova percussion track in Korg.
I did make a big mistake chordally in measure 55 or so at a transition point, and because this recording was intended as a first pass thing, I didn't fix it before I recorded a second guitar track. It's there, I hear it and so would you. It threw me off a little when I recorded the second guitar. But, hey, it is an off the cuff "work tape rehearsal" thing, like you said you like to record. I muffed a couple of lyric lines a bit, too.
You can even hear the chair sounds a bit as I play here and there. Needs more cowbell, too.....
Last edited by targuit; 06-14-2015 at 12:29 PM.
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Learning Jazz guitar for me feels like ironing wrinkly shirts. If your iron is only luke warm, you gotta run over each wrinkle thousands of times until you "iron them out". If you're one of the few lucky ones to be born with a white-hot steaming iron right off the get go, then you can iron out those wrinkles with way fewer passes... (Bastards!).
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