Am I ready for jazz lessons?

[Jazz4Four]

Hi all,

I’ve played guitar for years, but not jazz per se. I put the guitar down for a while but picked it back up a few years ago with the intention of finally learning to play jazz/jazz style. I’m not one to find a “system” and follow it slavishly. My preference is to identify the important areas of competence and learn those by utilizing various approaches to determine what works best for me.

I took some jazz lessons years ago, but they didn’t go anywhere because I didn’t know enough theory and fretboard knowledge. Before I take more lessons, I want to ensure that I know enough to make it worthwhile.
Note that I have an understanding of music in general - notes, intervals, chord construction, etc...

What would you add to this list of basics?

1. Drop 2 and Drop 3 voicings of Maj7, Min7, Dom 7, Half Dim, on string roots 6, 5, 4.
In addition, voicings for Maj6, Min6, Diminished, etc… many more chord types to work on here.

2. Exended voicings - 9th, 11th, 13th for chord types. Working set of voicings.

3. Altered Chords - working set of voicings

4. Major scale fingerings, and Modes of Major scale - multiple fingerings for each

5. Arpeggios of common chord types mentioned in #1 - multiple fingerings for each

6. Melodic Minor and Modes of Melodic Minor

Obviously there is MUCH more to learn. Again, my question is if this is enough of the basics to make lessons worthwhile at this time.

[pamosmusic]

Hi all,

I’ve played guitar for years, but not jazz per se. I put the guitar down for a while but picked it back up a few years ago with the intention of finally learning to play jazz/jazz style. I’m not one to find a “system” and follow it slavishly. My preference is to identify the important areas of competence and learn those by utilizing various approaches to determine what works best for me.

I took some jazz lessons years ago, but they didn’t go anywhere because I didn’t know enough theory and fretboard knowledge. Before I take more lessons, I want to ensure that I know enough to make it worthwhile.
Note that I have an understanding of music in general - notes, intervals, chord construction, etc...

What would you add to this list of basics?

1. Drop 2 and Drop 3 voicings of Maj7, Min7, Dom 7, Half Dim, on string roots 6, 5, 4.
In addition, voicings for Maj6, Min6, Diminished, etc… many more chord types to work on here.

2. Exended voicings - 9th, 11th, 13th for chord types. Working set of voicings.

3. Altered Chords - working set of voicings

4. Major scale fingerings, and Modes of Major scale - multiple fingerings for each

5. Arpeggios of common chord types mentioned in #1 - multiple fingerings for each

6. Melodic Minor and Modes of Melodic Minor

Obviously there is MUCH more to learn. Again, my question is if this is enough of the basics to make lessons worthwhile at this time.

A good teacher should meet you where you are. If you didn’t have enough knowledge to get anything out of lessons in the past, I’d put that down as the teachers fault and not yours.

[pamosmusic]

(And that list is wayyyyyyyy more than enough to get going. Nos 1, 2, 3, and 6 probably not necessary at all.

Useful down the line for sure but definitely not necessary to start really learning.)

[John A.]

Hi all,

I’ve played guitar for years, but not jazz per se. I put the guitar down for a while but picked it back up a few years ago with the intention of finally learning to play jazz/jazz style. I’m not one to find a “system” and follow it slavishly. My preference is to identify the important areas of competence and learn those by utilizing various approaches to determine what works best for me.

I took some jazz lessons years ago, but they didn’t go anywhere because I didn’t know enough theory and fretboard knowledge. Before I take more lessons, I want to ensure that I know enough to make it worthwhile.
Note that I have an understanding of music in general - notes, intervals, chord construction, etc...

What would you add to this list of basics?

1. Drop 2 and Drop 3 voicings of Maj7, Min7, Dom 7, Half Dim, on string roots 6, 5, 4.
In addition, voicings for Maj6, Min6, Diminished, etc… many more chord types to work on here.

2. Exended voicings - 9th, 11th, 13th for chord types. Working set of voicings.

3. Altered Chords - working set of voicings

4. Major scale fingerings, and Modes of Major scale - multiple fingerings for each

5. Arpeggios of common chord types mentioned in #1 - multiple fingerings for each

6. Melodic Minor and Modes of Melodic Minor

Obviously there is MUCH more to learn. Again, my question is if this is enough of the basics to make lessons worthwhile at this time.

If you know all that stuff in advance, great, but I don't think it's worth waiting until you have it all down cold to start lessons. IME, the first thing a teacher does is ask you to play a tune, not to show him all the voicings and scales you know. Jazz, after all, is tune based music and not just a bunch of chords and scales. A teacher wants to assess your technique, sense of swing, phrasing, ability to comp in a jazz style, etc., more than the extent of your knowledge of harmony. So I'd recommend applying what you've already figured out to a couple of tunes. Learn the melody, learn to comp on the changes (using the voicings and subs you already know), try some single line improvisation drawing on what you know about scales and modes, maybe try to figure out a rudimentary chord-melody.

Don't go crazy getting it perfect. Just have it be a reasonable representation of where you are as a player. You want a teacher to be able to diagnose where you are, work with you on where you want to go, and help you get there. The sooner you get yourself in a room with someone who can show you new things and how to use what you already know the better.

[wolflen]

add some tunes..standards..in several keys..

explore TRIADS in all inversions and all string sets..they are build blocks for many "other" chords
ex: Gmaj =G B D add Ab in Bass =Bb13b9 ..

explore moving voices in triads..one note at a time..the five chord types maj min dom dim aug

[pamosmusic]

Yeah if the question is “what should I work on” it’s a different answer:

major scales
triad arpeggios
shell voicings
tunes
grant green

if its “am I ready for lessons,” the answer is “yes you are and if a teacher tells you that you’re not, you should fire that teacher.”

[Jazz4Four]

A couple things I forgot I am also working on:

Major and Minor scale harmonization

Major and Minor Pentatonic fingerings - 5 for each

pamosmusic - Yes, my original teacher many years ago did not really meet me where I was. Then again, I didn't practice enough either.

Perhaps I am thinking too much about it, but my thought is that if I can get a good body of basics down I can focus on understanding the harmony and hone my improvising skills. Whereas now my focus is 2/3 technique and 1/3 tunes, I would then invert that and concentrate more on tunes and performance skills.

[pamosmusic]

A couple things I forgot I am also working on:

Major and Minor scale harmonization

Major and Minor Pentatonic fingerings - 5 for each

pamosmusic - Yes, my original teacher many years ago did not really meet me where I was. Then again, I didn't practice enough either.

Perhaps I am thinking too much about it, but my thought is that if I can get a good body of basics down I can focus on understanding the harmony and hone my improvising skills. Whereas now my focus is 2/3 technique and 1/3 tunes, I would then invert that and concentrate more on tunes and performance skills.

Thats probably what most people do. Not sure it’s the way to go though.

How much technique do you need to play, for example, Bags Groove?

And the technique and stuff can be informed by what you’re working on rather than the other way around.

[Jimmy blue note]

Just a suggestion. If you want to find a good teacher, have a good idea of what you want to do and probe your teacher to provide you with his/her idea of how to get there.
If your teacher is good enough, they should know the importance of ear training and assess you from the start on the command you have over being able to hear.
The list you have sounds like a solid foundation for any student but whether you can contextualize that knowledge into musical ability is what you need a teacher for.
Find a teacher with enough experience so they are not merely teaching you the technical aspects of playing, but also how these fit into a larger picture. I've worked with lots of students with a lot of fundamentals under their belts yet can't hear their way through a piece, can't find any connection with their fingers, have no idea about how to approach a real piece, and in those cases, it's really important for a teacher to have mastery over what the student doesn't even know they need.
By the way, I've seen students that have graduated music school who can't play their way through a tune without a Real Book. So shop around for someone who can guide you in developing your ear and broadening your scope of listening.
You're always ready to learn from a good teacher. Know what you want and find the right match.

[rpjazzguitar]

There is no correct way to do this. Everybody ends up with their own path.

With respect to playing single note improvisation (one note at a time), some players learn all of those scales, arps, triads, pentatonics, hexatonics, all against different bass notes, ad infinitum.

But other players strum the chords, scat sing a solo and then try to play that. Then, when you reach some kind of plateau with that approach, you learn a bit of theory to take you further. Or, you could just transcribe solos until you get some new ideas into your musical reservoir of sounds.

Your choice.

For chords, it's a little different. My teacher wrote out a number of basic voicings and had me memorize them in 12 keys. Then he picked a tune (it was Don't Blame Me) and showed me a chord melody, writing out the new chords and reminding me to learn them in all keys. Next one was Moonglow. Then Stompin' At the Savoy and others.

After a while, and not that long, I knew a lot of chords.

Much later, I learned a bunch of theory which helped me find harmonic alternatives and I'm still working on that every day, 60 years later.

So, if you can get around on the instrument a little bit, which it sounds like you can, sure you're ready for lessons.

[Tal_175]

I am gonna express a minority opinion here. People who teach jazz (or music in general) suck. It's not their fault that they suck. They suck because of the natural pace humans learn music and develop musicianship. Learning jazz is not like taking a history class. The progress is very slow on a week by week basis. It's easy to show someone something that would take them a year to integrate. What you gonna do when they show up the next week? They have made very little progress (naturally) on things covered in the last lesson. You can't just pile up new things every week to fill the hour.

I am saying this because there is a simplistic story around "finding a teacher". Whenever somebody asks for advice about learning jazz, they are told to find a teacher. Yeah, that's gonna solve all your problems, lol! I think a good teacher may make 5% difference. The student should take ownership of the process and understand that realistically a teacher is going to be a small part of all the contributing factors in the final outcome.

I think the ideal path might be to find a weekly workshop band and take lessons once a month (or every two months). You'll have enough time to make a meaningful progress between lessons and have a band to motive you to apply the material or identify what you need to work with a teacher.

[pamosmusic]

I am gonna express a minority opinion here. People who teach jazz (or music in general) suck. It's not their fault that they suck. They suck because of the natural pace humans can learn music and develop musicianship. Learning jazz is not like taking a history class. The progress is very slow on a week by week basis. It's easy to show someone something that would take them a year to integrate. What you gonna do when they show up the next week? They have made very little progress (naturally) on things covered in the last lesson. You can't just pile up new things every week to fill the hour.

I am saying this because there is a simplistic story around "finding a teacher". Whenever somebody asks for advice about learning jazz, they are told to find a teacher. Yeah, that's gonna solve all your problems, lol! I think on average a teacher may make 5% difference. The student should take ownership of the process and understand that realistically a teacher is going to be a small part of all the contributing factors in the final outcome.

I think the ideal path might be to find a weekly workshop band and take lessons once a month (or every two months). You'll have enough time to make a meaningful progress between lessons and have a band to motive you to apply the material or identify what you need to work with a teacher.

Sure man.

For what it’s worth, I teach guitar lessons an elementary school jazz band, another youth jazz band, and some improvisation stuff for students. My wife is an elementary school music teacher.

So pardon me if I beg to differ. Lots of music teachers (guitar teachers more so than music generally) are lazy. But good teachers do not suck. Usually that point of view belongs to people who have had a bad expedience and can’t imagine a good one.

Though I’d agree that people can learn fine on their own if they’re resourceful, and need to take ownership of the process even with a teacher.

[Tal_175]

Sure man.

For what it’s worth, I teach guitar lessons an elementary school jazz band, another youth jazz band, and some improvisation stuff for students. My wife is an elementary school music teacher.

So pardon me if I beg to differ. Lots of music teachers (guitar teachers more so than music generally) are lazy. But good teachers do not suck. Usually that point of view belongs to people who have had a bad expedience and can’t imagine a good one.

Though I’d agree that people can learn fine on their own if they’re resourceful, and need to take ownership of the process even with a teacher.

I think I explained what I meant by "they suck". I used it in a tongue-in-cheek manner. It's not them, it's the learning process. What I had in my mind was a mature music student considering taking private lessons.
Kids are different. They need the structure. Elementary school music classes (or ensambles) are also a different story altogether. I was in ensembles in elementary school too. The trade-offs, expectations and purposes are very different in that context.

[pamosmusic]

I think I explained what I meant by "they suck". I used it in a tongue-in-cheek manner. It's not them, it's the learning process. What I had in my mind was a mature music student considering taking private lessons.
Kids are different. They need the structure. Elementary school music classes (or ensambles) are also a different story altogether. I was in ensembles in elementary school too. The trade-offs, expectations and purposes are very different in that context.

Adults are individuals. Some love weekly lessons. Others prefer them intermittently.

And wild! To think, all those times I was told at sessions that I sucked, what they really meant was that the environment wasn’t conducive to my playing style. I’ve been so wrong for so long

[starjasmine]

Don't wait and don't overthink it. Sounds to me like you are ready now. Find a teacher and get going. If you don't understand what the teacher says or wants, or if you practice diligently without seeing progress, find another teacher. When you find the right one, you will know. You'll say to yourself "I wanna play like that person!" and the teacher will be able to explain how to do it. If the teacher's playing does not inspire you, find another teacher. If the teacher cannot express to you how they're doing what attracts your ear, find another teacher. No judgment on either of you, just not a fit, and time to try another.

Optionally, you might take a harmony class or three at your local community college to fill in the gaps in your overall understanding of theory. Trust me, if you haven't taken this class, there are gaps.

@Tal, sorry you've had such bad experiences. I've had many music teachers, some of whom sucked, some of whom were life-changing. Taking music lessons can be like taking pictures: you take a lot of pictures to find the one that is great.

The other thing the OP can do now and do on your own is start to listen to lots of jazz: piano players, sax players, bebop, fusion, mainstream, whatever. You want to develop your musical conception, to learn to think like a jazz player in terms of constructing melodies and harmonizing them. There are lots of sources of free audio for this, such as KCSM.org or YouTube. As an exercise, try listening to a zillion different versions of one jazz standard of your own choosing, so you can experience the different approaches that different players and different instruments and different arrangements bring to a tune. For example, you might listen to a solo guitar version of the piece, a big band version of the piece, a trio/quartet/quintet version of the piece, female vocalists, male vocalists, sax players, piano players, and so on.

[Tal_175]

@Tal, sorry you've had such bad experiences. I've had many music teachers, some of whom sucked, some of whom were life-changing. Taking music lessons can be like taking pictures: you take a lot of pictures to find the one that is great.

I didn't have bad experiences. I think you missed my point.

I am curious though, what is an example of a life changing experience you had with a teacher?

[Jazz4Four]

Learning jazz is not like taking a history class. The progress is very slow on a week by week basis. It's easy to show someone something that would take them a year to integrate. What you gonna do when they show up the next week? They have made very little progress (naturally) on things covered in the last lesson. You can't just pile up new things every week to fill the hour.

Tal_175, I think this is a GREAT point actually. Maybe teachers don't suck as much as it is difficult to teach because of the nature of the subject. You rightly point out that much of the "required learning" and concepts take a while to integrate for most people.

[pamosmusic]

Tal_175, I think this is a GREAT point actually. Maybe teachers don't suck as much as it is difficult to teach because of the nature of the subject. You rightly point out that much of the "required learning" and concepts take a while to integrate for most people.

it is difficult to teach. Which is another way of saying that teachers also have to work hard to understand how to teach it. Some don’t, but others do.

That doesn’t mean that lessons don’t make sense or that teachers can’t teach the material.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah if the question is “what should I work on” it’s a different answer:

major scales
triad arpeggios
shell voicings
tunes
grant green

if its “am I ready for lessons,” the answer is “yes you are and if a teacher tells you that you’re not, you should fire that teacher.”

OP this is big and important. You need to know the major scale, and all the chords can be reduced to 3 grips.

That’s truly enough to get started and you can run with that for… I dunno, it’s been about five years for me. This drop 2 drop 3, 9#11b13 chord stuff is BS. By the time you use them you won’t be thinking about chords that way.

I have theory guys talk to me at gigs and I can’t keep up. “But you’re doing it, I just heard it.” All I can do is shrug, I heard it off a record and stole it, or just wandered into it. But what I didn’t do was exhaust every possible inversion and extension BEFORE I stayed to play jazz.

You’ll never feel well rounded and you’ll always have another goalpost. Just start now.

[starjasmine]

I am curious though, what is an example of a life changing experience you had with a teacher?

• Kyung-Soo Won gave me a super solid understanding of harmony tied inextricably to equally solid aural skills. After two years in his undergrad classes I could hear and transcribe pretty much anything: diatonic, chomatic, functional/nonfunctional. Use it or lose it tho :-) I doubt that my ability to transcribe in standard notation is now as good as it was then, but I can still hear everything someone else plays and play anything I hear. He taught me that music always makes sense; that if it does not, you are not hearing or understanding it correctly.
• Over four years, Steve Erquiaga took me from being a pretty good amateur to having all the requisite skills to function as a working musician: sight-reading, improvising in any key, playing any scale or mode in any of the positions up and down the neck, chord substitution, playing convincingly in a variety of styles, and learning a good chunk of the expected repertoire that a jazz player should know.
• Over another four years, Jackie King took me from being a position player to being able to float between positions, playing any idea the entire length of the guitar neck. He increased my speed (both LH/RH) and fluency markedly. He also significantly improved my ability to reharmonize melodic ideas on the fly.
• I gotta throw props to Troy Grady here, too. Though I only subscribed to his picking mechanics stuff for about four months, it really helped. Nobody before him has really taken an evidence-based approach to picking technique.

Most of my formal study concluded at least a decade ago. Nowadays, you can study with many pro players online. If I felt that I had the time to do it justice, I'd study online with Jonathan Kreisberg or Martin Miller in a heartbeat. Reprising a point I made in another thread, tho, I can get what I want from them online: to learn how they think. I no longer need help with mechanical technique or tone, which I think are two things that in-person lessons excel at.

[Tal_175]

it is difficult to teach. Which is another way of saying that teachers also have to work hard to understand how to teach it. Some don’t, but others do.

That doesn’t mean that lessons don’t make sense or that teachers can’t teach the material.

I think jazz4four understood my point.

[Tal_175]

• Over another four years, Jackie King took me from being a position player to being able to float between positions, playing any idea the entire length of the guitar neck. He increased my speed (both LH/RH) and fluency markedly. He also significantly improved my ability to reharmonize melodic ideas on the fly.

Let's take this as an example. Studying with someone for four years and as a result going from being a position player to floating between positions is a slow incremental progress in a specific area. One could say the same thing about the other examples you gave. This is all consistent with my post. Some students may not realize how much patience making progress takes. I don't think this contradicts to what I said if one is willing to read my post in good faith.

Of course it is possible to make a similar progress in that particular area in four years with a variety of approaches. But week in, week out progress is typically miniscule.

[starjasmine]

[/LIST]
Let's take this as an example. Studying with someone for four years and as a result going from position player to floating between positions is a slow incremental progress in a specific area. One could say the same thing about the other examples you gave. This is all consistent with my post. I don't think there is a contradiction if one is willing to read my post in good faith.

Of course it is possible to make a similar progress in that particular area in four years with a variety of approaches. But week in, week out progress is typically miniscule.

This isn't the only thing I learned from Jackie in that time.
I did read your post in good faith and simply stated that my experience was different. I'm very lucky to have had some excellent teachers who are world-class pro musicians.
You seem to be saying that your experiences negate mine, which is simply irrational. It's as if I said "I feel sick" and you said "well, I don't feel sick, so you must not be sick."

I don't see what weekly progress being incremental has to do with it. Someone can impart a groundbreaking idea in a relatively short amount of time, an idea that you haven't heard elsewhere; the fact that it might takes years of diligent work to realize the execution of that idea in real time makes it no less impactful.

[Tal_175]

You seem to be saying that your experiences negate mine, which is simply irrational.

Nope, I don't think you would have said that if you understood my point.

[AllanAllen]

Nope, I don't think you would have said that if you understood my point.

Something to consider, if nobody understands your thesis statement, as you intended it, it’s bad.