Am I ready for jazz lessons?

[starjasmine]

Nope, I don't think you would have said that if you understood my point.

You seem to be conflating the rate at which a student masters an idea with the quality of the presenter. Those are two different things.

Anyway, I have to get offline for the rest of the day. If you reply and don't hear back, I'm not ghosting you.

TBH I am not worried about our reaching consensus. If you want to think all music teachers suck, you can. It just happens that I don't agree with you.

[Tal_175]

Something to consider, if nobody understands your thesis statement, as you intended it, it’s bad.

What if one out of three understands it?

[Tal_175]

You seem to be conflating the rate at which a student masters an idea with the quality of the presenter. Those are two different things.

You are getting closer except for the "quality of the presenter" part.

TBH I am not worried about our reaching consensus. If you want to think all music teachers suck, you can. It just happens that I don't agree with you.

It is not possible to reach a consensus if that's your version of reading the post in good faith.

[pamosmusic]

I think jazz4four understood my point.

As did I. I just don’t think you’re correct in some significant portions of it.

[Tal_175]

As did I. I just don’t think you’re correct in some significant portions of it.

You understood a distorted version of it which is understandable since it's something you're very invested in. But we're gonna agree to disagree here (as we usually do).

[starjasmine]

What if one out of three understands it?

• Perhaps it means that you are not expressing yourself clearly.
• Perhaps it means that you assume that disagreement equates to lack of understanding.
• Or, as Allen has suggested, maybe the thesis is flawed. If you said "Most of MY music teachers sucked," or "SOME music teachers suck," nobody would be arguing the opposite position.

I don't think this side discussion is serving the OP's original question. Rather than derailing this thread further, maybe you can start a "Most music teachers suck" thread, Tal.

Cheers,

SJ

[Tal_175]

• Perhaps it means that you are not expressing yourself clearly.
• Perhaps it means that you assume that disagreement equates to lack of understanding.
• Or, as Allen has suggested, maybe the thesis is flawed. If you said "Most of MY music teachers sucked," or "SOME music teachers suck," nobody would be arguing the opposite position.

I didn't assume that you misunderstood it. It was based on how you phrased it. It doesn't seem like you read past the first sentence.

I don't think this side discussion is serving the OP's original question. Rather than derailing this thread further, maybe you can start a "Most music teachers suck" thread, Tal.

Let's not speak for the OP. But you seem to think it's relevant since you continue the discussion despite having to get offline?

[pamosmusic]

You understood a distorted version of it which is understandable since it's something you're very invested in. But we're gonna agree to disagree here (as we usually do).

You tend to think that folks who disagree with you could only disagree with you if they misunderstand you.

You’re saying that jazz teachers, and music teachers generally, are ineffective because of the way people generally absorb musical skills.

Im telling you I disagree with that.

People absorb things in a wide variety of ways and what is ineffective for one student might be very effective for another. If a teacher is teaching the same thing to both, then they’re lecturing — not teaching.

And sure, I am invested in it, which means I spend a couple hours a day sitting at a table with a computer open and music playing, thinking about how to teach stuff to the people I’m teaching. I float stuff for criticism and feedback on this site all the time, and make changes and stuff. I buy stuff that other people use or recommend. It’s a process of getting better, just like playing is. Not everyone treats it that seriously, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to teach stuff to someone who wants to learn.

And for what it’s worth, if you don’t want to have your ideas to come off weird to your reader, you might consider starting with something other than “People who teach jazz (or music in general) suck.”

[Tal_175]

The point is teaching music is what everybody "sucks at". It's due to the nature of the skill. It's is an inherently slow process and a lot depends on the student being able to "teach themselves" regardless of how good the teacher is. That's why when one says having had a "life changing experience" with one of the best teachers in the world, they mean going from position playing to moving between positions and gaining some speed in four years. When someone starts a thread talking about having difficulty progressing and they are told to get a teacher, (by all means get a teacher) I think this big picture is not always very obvious.

[pamosmusic]

The point is teaching music is what everybody "sucks at". It's due to the nature of the skill.

Sure, and I just think you’re wrong here.

[Tal_175]

And for what it’s worth, if you don’t want to have your ideas to come off weird to your reader, you might consider starting with something other than “People who teach jazz (or music in general) suck.”

Where is the fun in that?

[Jazz4Four]

The point is teaching music is what everybody "sucks at".=

Tal_175, as the OP, yes I did understand your point.

The best argument for taking lessons is that a good teacher could provide insight that might take you years to come upon by yourself. I think this is what pamosmusic and starjasmine are referring to. At any rate, I am certainly hoping for that kind of value-add at some point.

[Tal_175]

Tal_175, as the OP, yes I did understand your point.

The best argument for taking lessons is that a good teacher could provide insight that might take you years to come upon by yourself. I think this is what pamosmusic and starjasmine are referring to. At any rate, I am certainly hoping for that kind of value-add at some point.

I think that is a realistic expectation and I agree with it. It seemed like you had a lot on your plate and sometimes I am under the impression that people get a teacher because they want to play like the masters on the records and they are frustrated how much time it takes to get anywhere near that and a teacher is offered as a solution. Unlike most other styles of music, in jazz that takes a very long time. In my experience, a good teacher makes you work on something you didn't know you had to work on. Most teachers have their biases and pet peeves. They will try to teach based on what worked for them and be hypersensitive about certain areas that they worked hard at and that's not a bad thing.

[AllanAllen]

Tal is also right that this is 80-90% on you, without self discipline and routine you’ll never get better.

But honestly, I think a regular teacher could have helped me greatly, just to have someone say “hey, cool it with the scales and maybe limit your time to 15 minutes instead of 2 hours running patterns” or “you don’t have to transpose and play Autumn Leaves through all 12 keys in a row, during a massive 4 hour practice session”

[pamosmusic]

Tal is also right that this is 80-90% on you, without self discipline and routine you’ll never get better.

But honestly, I think a regular teacher could have helped me greatly, just to have someone say “hey, cool it with the scales and maybe limit your time to 15 minutes instead of 2 hours running patterns” or “you don’t have to transpose and play Autumn Leaves through all 12 keys in a row, during a massive 4 hour practice session”

Allan will send you his invoice for this lesson presently.

But in all seriousness yeah …

Tal is obviously right that some of these things are huge projects that take time. But so many of these things can be broken down into component parts. But Allan is right here too. I’ve had experiences like starjasmine’s where a teacher really made something click and pointed out something that would’ve taken years to come to on my own. But that’s just part of it …

For me a bigger part of teaching is gelling jerk the mundane stuff that isn’t necessarily lightbulb revelatory. It’s fine for someone to hear that they need to get a tune together or learn their scales, and then come back in a month or three or whatever with that stuff together. But it’s also fine for someone to need to scaffold up to those big goals, and that scaffolding can exist, whether or not it’s useful for everyone under the sun. And whether or not it looks the same from one person to the next.

[bediles]

Functional ear training and a playing situation to get you away from collecting technical proficiencies and onto playing music with people. Also, sing along to simple solos (Charlie Christian, grant green, chet baker) and listen to a lot of jazz. It has to be in your head to come out.
The playing situations will guide you to what you can do and what you can't and is a motivator to practice so you don't fall on your face.
This could be:
1. Private teacher where you jam most of the time
2. Workshop class was mentioned. Group class with a rhythm section or maybe just a bunch of guitar players.
3. Jamming with friends
4. Low stakes gigs

If the teacher is going to be giving you more and more technical stuff without the playing than it will be more of a slow go.

[John A.]

I am gonna express a minority opinion here. People who teach jazz (or music in general) suck. It's not their fault that they suck. They suck because of the natural pace humans learn music and develop musicianship. Learning jazz is not like taking a history class. The progress is very slow on a week by week basis. It's easy to show someone something that would take them a year to integrate. What you gonna do when they show up the next week? They have made very little progress (naturally) on things covered in the last lesson. You can't just pile up new things every week to fill the hour.

Progress is as fast or slow as the student's effort and talent make it, in combination with how attuned the teacher is to what the student needs in order to make progress. Week to week progress might be barely discernible, or it might be dramatic, It all depends. I don't think it makes sense to generalize this way.

I am saying this because there is a simplistic story around "finding a teacher". Whenever somebody asks for advice about learning jazz, they are told to find a teacher. Yeah, that's gonna solve all your problems, lol! I think a good teacher may make 5% difference. The student should take ownership of the process and understand that realistically a teacher is going to be a small part of all the contributing factors in the final outcome.

A very common occurrence here is someone says something along the lines of "I know [a bunch of stuff]. Out of [some other bunch of stuff ] what should I learn next?" Then the person posts a sample of their playing, and, well, sometimes the person turns out to be really good, and is actually at the right level for seeking that kind of advice. But sometimes they're really not and what they need is an honest opinion and hands on guidance. I couldn't attach a percent value to that, but for many people it's bound to be better than what they're doing. [Not saying that's the case with the OP here, and don't mean that as some sort of dig at him, just saying that it's a common occurence.]

I think the ideal path might be to find a weekly workshop band and take lessons once a month (or every two months). You'll have enough time to make a meaningful progress between lessons and have a band to motive you to apply the material or identify what you need to work with a teacher.

I definitely agree that a blend of jamming/peer-learning and more formal instruction is best, though how often the lessons should be really depends on the people involved. When I was taking weekly jazz lessons in college, I was a full-time student (in a non-music major), had lots of other music activity (rehearsals, gigs, jam sessions), and was working part time on top of all that. I did not always keep up with my lessons (and the teacher threw more at me than I caught), but I still think weekly was about the right cadence. I learned a lot in the year that I did it. But it might be different for someone else.

TL;DR: Teachers don't suck, but matching student and teacher can be tricky.

[Doublea A]

Hi all,

I’ve played guitar for years, but not jazz per se. I put the guitar down for a while but picked it back up a few years ago with the intention of finally learning to play jazz/jazz style. I’m not one to find a “system” and follow it slavishly. My preference is to identify the important areas of competence and learn those by utilizing various approaches to determine what works best for me.

I took some jazz lessons years ago, but they didn’t go anywhere because I didn’t know enough theory and fretboard knowledge. Before I take more lessons, I want to ensure that I know enough to make it worthwhile.
Note that I have an understanding of music in general - notes, intervals, chord construction, etc...

What would you add to this list of basics?

1. Drop 2 and Drop 3 voicings of Maj7, Min7, Dom 7, Half Dim, on string roots 6, 5, 4.
In addition, voicings for Maj6, Min6, Diminished, etc… many more chord types to work on here.

2. Exended voicings - 9th, 11th, 13th for chord types. Working set of voicings.

3. Altered Chords - working set of voicings

4. Major scale fingerings, and Modes of Major scale - multiple fingerings for each

5. Arpeggios of common chord types mentioned in #1 - multiple fingerings for each

6. Melodic Minor and Modes of Melodic Minor

Obviously there is MUCH more to learn. Again, my question is if this is enough of the basics to make lessons worthwhile at this time.

I would be happy to teach you.
My lessons are conducted over zoom at a mutually convenient time. I charge $50 (Canadian) per hour (that’s about $35 American at the moment).

I also offer a free 40 minute introductory lesson to help us get acquainted with each other.

I also offer monthly workshops with no more than 6 participants.
Workshops are about 90 to 120 minutes long and cost $25 ( Canadian ).

Workshops

DM me if you are interested.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pawlowski6132]

Hi all,

I’ve played guitar for years, but not jazz per se. I put the guitar down for a while but picked it back up a few years ago with the intention of finally learning to play jazz/jazz style. I’m not one to find a “system” and follow it slavishly. My preference is to identify the important areas of competence and learn those by utilizing various approaches to determine what works best for me.

I took some jazz lessons years ago, but they didn’t go anywhere because I didn’t know enough theory and fretboard knowledge. Before I take more lessons, I want to ensure that I know enough to make it worthwhile.
Note that I have an understanding of music in general - notes, intervals, chord construction, etc...

What would you add to this list of basics?

1. Drop 2 and Drop 3 voicings of Maj7, Min7, Dom 7, Half Dim, on string roots 6, 5, 4.
In addition, voicings for Maj6, Min6, Diminished, etc… many more chord types to work on here.

2. Exended voicings - 9th, 11th, 13th for chord types. Working set of voicings.

3. Altered Chords - working set of voicings

4. Major scale fingerings, and Modes of Major scale - multiple fingerings for each

5. Arpeggios of common chord types mentioned in #1 - multiple fingerings for each

6. Melodic Minor and Modes of Melodic Minor

Obviously there is MUCH more to learn. Again, my question is if this is enough of the basics to make lessons worthwhile at this time.

Those aren't basics. Your getting off to a bad start.

Bite size.

[pawlowski6132]

add some tunes..standards..in several keys..

explore TRIADS in all inversions and all string sets..they are build blocks for many "other" chords
ex: Gmaj =G B D add Ab in Bass =Bb13b9 ..

explore moving voices in triads..one note at a time..the five chord types maj min dom dim aug

What he said.

[starjasmine]

Apologies to the OP for the fact that I feel the need to clear the air here...

That's why when one says having had a "life changing experience" with one of the best teachers in the world, they mean going from position playing to moving between positions and gaining some speed in four years.

That's not even close to what I said. You are cherry-picking one example out of several I gave, misrepresenting it as my entire point, and not even reflecting the cherry-picked idea accurately. Moving between positions would be just a variation on position playing. I went from position playing to total freedom to play the entire neck without thinking of position at all.

I wasn't "gaining some speed." I gained significant speed AND FLUENCY. Additionally, these lessons changed the entire way that I formulate and execute improvisational ideas on guitar, and the results were dramatic.

I went from being second or third choice for any gig to almost ALWAYS getting the gig. I nailed 12 auditions in a row for various paid gigs. I got too busy gigging to keep taking lessons. My life changed from being a student to being someone who was gigging constantly. Yes, I chose those words deliberately: My...life... changed... because of these studies. Full stop.

Again, the fact that it takes time and practice to build neural pathways and muscle reflex is not proof of flawed pedagogy. It's simply a reflection of what it takes for humans to learn to execute complex skills in real time.

I feel very lucky to have met and studied with some great teachers who did help ME a lot. And I'm really sorry that you have not found a teacher that does that for you, Tal. Truly. That does not mean that they aren't out there or that it can't happen.

[Tal_175]

That's not even close to what I said. You are cherry-picking one example out of several I gave, misrepresenting it as my entire point, and not even reflecting the cherry-picked idea accurately. Moving between positions would be just a variation on position playing. I went from position playing to total freedom to play the entire neck without thinking of position at all.

I don't believe I was misrepresenting what you said:

• Over another four years, Jackie King took me from being a position player to being able to float between positions, playing any idea the entire length of the guitar neck. He increased my speed (both LH/RH) and fluency markedly. He also significantly improved my ability to reharmonize melodic ideas on the fly.

Floating between positions, playing an idea in different areas (and string groups), having increased speed and harmonizing notes (your words) seem like a reasonable progress to me in four years. These are all very good stuff. I (and several players I know) have made improvements that can be described exactly the same way in similar timeframes. They could be described as life changing. I don't doubt that the lessons were helpful. You probably had to work hard at these skills over those four years and were able to grasp the concepts really well. That seems like a reasonable progress to expect. That doesn't contradict to what I said (which is not "don't take lessons.).

[AllanAllen]

That doesn't contradict to what I said (which is not "don't take lessons.).

A good thing to do here is restate what you did say, or what you meant to say. To clear up the confusion.

[starjasmine]

I don't believe I was misrepresenting what you said.

The operative word here is "believe." You can believe whatever you want, and you can try to twist my words to try to support your belief. But what I'm TELLING you (AGAIN) is that you don't get it. You have NO IDEA what sort of dramatic difference that studies with these teachers made for me, despite the fact that I PMed you with more detail before I even posted the reply that you seem bent on arguing with. I can't invest more effort in trying to get you to hear what's being said here, because you don't want to hear it.

[Tal_175]

A good thing to do here is restate what you did say, or what you meant to say. To clear up the confusion.

Op said they want to learn to play in the jazz style. Presumably that means, "I want to learn to play like the music in the jazz records."

Then he said:

I took some jazz lessons years ago, but they didn’t go anywhere because I didn’t know enough theory and fretboard knowledge. Before I take more lessons, I want to ensure that I know enough to make it worthwhile.
Note that I have an understanding of music in general - notes, intervals, chord construction, etc...

What would you add to this list of basics?

Then he listed a bunch of areas he might work on before taking lessons.

That was the context of my post.


Hope that clarifies it.