Words of Warning to Newbies!

[Spook410]

<snip.. lots of cool stuff.. >Best of all, my wife is happy - so I'm happy

OK.. that post kind of made my day.

[Bobby Timmons]

I don't like iReal for backing tracks because I agree it sounds kinda crap. I prefer to make my own backing tracks. It's a sinch in the daw, sound quality is good, can loop it however I want, etc. Then this also forces me to work on my bass playing time as well to build the bass line.

[pamosmusic]

I don't like iReal for backing tracks because I agree it sounds kinda crap. I prefer to make my own backing tracks. It's a sinch in the daw, sound quality is good, can loop it however I want, etc. Then this also forces me to work on my bass playing time as well to build the bass line.

Well yeah … and it’s an aesthetic thing, sure, but also how do we develop a swing feel?

Listen and copy.

Drum genius is a great alternative to a metronome. It still doesn’t replace a metronome because it gives you all the time rather than making you establish it on your own, but sitting in the pocket with Jimmy Cobb and then doing the same with Elvin Jones on brushes or something is a different challenge.

[Spook410]

You can run iRealPro with just a click track and bass. Or just bass. Or just metronome. Or with things adjusted to volume (click loud, rhythm soft, et al). Then you can change keys, tempo, and play style.

Personal backing tracks are more work than a few clicks on your phone. And a lot less flexible. The guitar rhythm would sure sound better though. Wish they would update the instruments. Bass and drums are fine but the pianos and guitars..echh.

[pamosmusic]

Or just metronome.

Well shucks. I'm sold.

It's not the utility of the app I object to. It's an incredibly useful app. It's just the specific purpose that was in question earlier. Using it for time.

[raylinds]

I worked really hard over the weekend and made good progress. Thanks for all the tips and advice- they helped. I got to the point where I can work on playing actual music again (with a metronome!), but I am going to dedicate part of each practice session to timing exercises. Jazz is a challenge, but nothing a little hard work can't overcome.

Everybody has their preferred tools, but I'm with Bobby Timmons on using a DAW. It takes a little work to set up (but I enjoy it), but it sounds great, is very flexible and requires learning about the rhythm section.

[Christian Miller]

A friend of mine put out this video (he’s a great jazz violinist has played with loads of top players)

I’m also aware that not everyone is on an intense learning curve and many play for pleasure. In this case the main thing i struggle with is why anybody would want to play with iReal? It sounds rubbish and there are much better options.

With the app Moises you can take your favourite records, snip out the lead, change the tempo (within reason) and even the key. I’d suggest doing that, so you get real drums and bass played by masters.

For ‘marginal guitar players’ it will simply sound better.

There’s an app called Quartet which sounds good, more of a BIAB deal.

Quartet 2 on the App Store

But if you’d rather play with iReal, while I think you are crazy, more power to ya.

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[Ukena]

I far prefer Genius Jamtracks, which gives one control over everything, and doesn't feel like a robot playing.

The accompaniment isn't static, and changes with each repeat (and one can make the rhythm and/or harmony very unpredictable).

It doesn't have near as many tunes as IReal, and you can't add your own, but it has almost all of the standard jazz tunes.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

A friend of mine put out this video (he’s a great jazz violinist has played with loads of top players)

I’m also aware that not everyone is on an intense learning curve and many play for pleasure. In this case the main thing i struggle with is why anybody would want to play with iReal? It sounds rubbish and there are much better options.

With the app Moises you can take your favourite records, snip out the lead, change the tempo (within reason) and even the key. I’d suggest doing that, so you get real drums and bass played by masters.

For ‘marginal guitar players’ it will simply sound better.

There’s an app called Quartet which sounds good, more of a BIAB deal.

Quartet 2 on the App Store

But if you’d rather play with iReal, while I think you are crazy, more power to ya.

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The Quartet app is snobby iOS only.

[GuyBoden]

With the app Moises you can take your favourite records, snip out the lead, change the tempo (within reason) and even the key. I’d suggest doing that, so you get real drums and bass played by masters.

Many thanks, I see that the Moises software has a version for desktop computers, so not only mobile phone app.

Link below:
Moises

[Christian Miller]

The Quartet app is snobby iOS only.

Metronome for you then


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Metronome for you then


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Yes, very revealing.

And I got a TC Ditto Looper now and practice to my own Schwing.

[Spook410]

<re: iReal vs sanity>

Casual players are faced with learning a couple hundred jazz songs. If you want easy, cheap, quick, ubiquitous, simple, and flexible, iReal is great for learning songs. That's why so many non-intensive learners use it. On your phone with earpods and a guitar in your lap you can sit out on the deck. Or run it through the TV while you watch a movie and plink on your tele. Works fine. And it does force you to keep time which I think is good. Though.. there is swing impairment? Umm.. OK. Maybe that will become more apparent later on.

And if you can't take to bad instrument sounds, not sure about the alternatives. Realistically, how long does Moises take per song to get something usable and organized and is that the only key/tempo you want it in? I've only dabbled with it and found it kind of fiddly. Haven't tried Quartet. Going to try it so we'll see. The old ways? Metronome, vinyl, and RealBook? Good enough for grandpa and I suspect we all still do some of our learning that way. Overall though, for me, iReal does everything I need with easy access to lots of well organized material in a flexible app so that's what I'm using.

P.S. backing tracks for performance, different topic.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Casual players are faced with learning a couple hundred jazz songs. If you want easy, cheap, quick, ubiquitous, simple, and flexible, iReal is great for learning songs. That's why everyone does it. Use it on your phone with earpods and a guitar in your lap. Run it through the TV while you watch a movie and plink on your tele. Works fine. And it does force you to keep time which I think is good. While offering enough in the way of settings to work other aspects of your timing as some have suggested.

Can't take the bad instrument sounds and have hundreds of songs to learn? Going to strip a couple hundred songs using Moises? How long would that take not to mention cost and fiddly bits like it doesn't always work. Going to record the tunes yourself? Catch 22: your learning the song for the first time. Buy a couple hundred MP3's from people who produce them for backing? Expensive and what if you want different keys and tempos? Metronome, vinyl, and RealBook? Good enough for grandpa. Easier to just put up with the bad instrument sounds. After you have the basics under you fingers you hear it differently in recordings (at least I do) and you can start thinking about what's next in terms of refinement.

As for backing tracks for performance, different topic.

How do you learn the lyrics and the melody of a song from iReal Pro? The only thing it shows you are the changes. Which are not the song.

[Hugo Gainly]

A school of fish or a flock of birds looks like they are holding synchrony with their shifts in direction because each individual is watching and following the single lead fish or bird.

If that was the case they would all move in the same way - in fact they move in a wave taking their lead from their immediate environment. Don't know what you can conclude about that other than, you need to develop your awareness. Groove is collective consciousness. Following an insistent drummer, say, whilst disregarding the rest of the grooving quintet is a hiding to nothing. If it's his/her band, well, that's not a musical issue and might need a different decision, like leaving the band.

* I did see this at college where the staff played for us one lunchtime. The percussion tutor was deeply in his groove and the rest of the band were in their different groove. Looks were exchanged. The students had long decided there was something amiss and were all just looking at this guy blithely banging away out of time, thinking berk.

** the uk band Brass Mask are the only band I have ever seen who collectively slowed down radically and sped up sim. This may be a collective technique used by New Orleans bands but I was amazed at how smoothly they did it. They had their individual time, their awareness of each other as a whole, and you could not have learned this from a metronome.

Again, if you want to improve your time, you have to work on your time, not iReal’s.

You need to be consistent if that's what you mean, but you do also have to learn to play with others, and iReal is temporarily the others, albeit doggedly sticking to their time.

Conversely, I know a guitarist who clearly had problems with time in an ensemble setting. He saw it as an issue to be addressed by technical work. But I always felt he just didn't listen to the others. It was an ego trip, 'here I am doing a solo'. All the opportunities to play off other individuals in the band were ignored or missed and his being out of place and time was the abiding memory, not the rehearsed choice of notes. It was 'here's my stuff' and playing in the same room as the other musicians.

I agree with the general sense in this thread - play with others (who are good). Charlie Parker certainly did and I've forgotten what tune it was but the end was about 12 -15 bpm faster than the beginning, and wow what a performance.

[djg]

I agree with the general sense in this thread - play with others (who are good). Charlie Parker certainly did and I've forgotten what tune it was but the end was about 12 -15 bpm faster than the beginning, and wow what a performance.

15 bpm is nothing. art blakey can go from 180 to 240 within one tune. otoh erroll garner can go from 180 to 140. and both swing hard while rushing/dragging like mad.

[Christian Miller]

15 bpm is nothing. art blakey can go from 180 to 240 within one tune. otoh erroll garner can go from 180 to 140. and both swing hard while rushing/dragging like mad.

Imagine how much better jazz would be if it was metronomic!


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[pamosmusic]

And it does force you to keep time which I think is good.

How about a different tack.

How does it force you to keep time?

I’m beginning to suspect that we’re talking about different things.

[Spook410]

How do you learn the lyrics and the melody of a song from iReal Pro? The only thing it shows you are the changes. Which are not the song.

You don't. And the chords in iReal aren't all that reliable. You still need sheet music from another source or use your ears. You then practice playing the melody with iReal cranking out the rhythm in the tempo/key/number of repetitions you choose.

[Spook410]

How about a different tack.

How does it force you to keep time?

I’m beginning to suspect that we’re talking about different things.

Likely so.. example:

When you are using guitar in the role of rhythm instrument and you are the foundation for a small jam and the only instrument reliably holding things together, there is a need to be stable and solid. That often means something like a solid 4X4 holding down the fort while others navigate. Nice to be somewhat musical beyond a simple 4X4 with various forms of punctuation, but you have to be consistent. I think the rigidity of iReal has helped with that. You learn to move around it but you have to end up in the same place as the tool grinds out a clock. While you also learn to mimic a clock when you need to.

Some here seem to confuse fluidity and swing with an actual BPM. Learning to swing (assuming that can be learned and you don't start off with that sense in the first place) isn't the same thing as learning that big stack of jazz tunes you are faced with. And learning to be consistent, like being able to play in line with a metronome, isn't the same thing as learning to be fluid and interacting with others.

[pamosmusic]

Likely so.. example:

When you are using guitar in the role of rhythm instrument and you are the foundation for a small jam and the only instrument reliably holding things together, there is a need to be stable and solid. That often means something like a solid 4X4 holding down the fort while others navigate. Nice to be somewhat musical beyond a simple 4X4 with various forms of punctuation, but you have to be consistent. I think the rigidity of iReal has helped with that. You learn to move around it but you have to end up in the same place as the tool grinds out a clock. While you also learn to mimic a clock when you need to.

Some here seem to confuse fluidity and swing with an actual BPM. Learning to swing (assuming that can be learned and you don't start off with that sense in the first place) isn't the same thing as learning that big stack of jazz tunes you are faced with. And learning to be consistent, like being able to play in line with a metronome, isn't the same thing as learning to be fluid and interacting with others.

Well it turns out we are talking about partly the same thing and I just think you’re wrong.

ha!

If you’re relying on iReal for your pulse, how are you learning to control the time yourself? Out of curiosity, how does that prepare you to be the only instrument holding things down? It’s training you to get your time from what’s going on around and not to produce the time yourself.

If you want to learn how to keep time *you* have to keep time.

It’s also worth reiterating what Christian and djg mention about tempo. Tempo is definitely a *part* of good time, but time-feel is probably the most important part of good time. So you mention swinging, for example, as though it’s superfluous to the time. Part of the purpose of the stretched swing eighth note, or the accented upbeat or slurred downbeat, is that the eighth note line feels like it pushes forward. If you’re not confident in that, guess what happens… you rush, my guy. So time feel is not separate from tempo, and working on time-keeping as separate from time-feel will be of limited in terms of playing the music. Which I would find to be an essential part of learning that stack of songs. You can also tell from the examples djg cited that most jazz musicians would put time feel over unwavering tempo every time.

(and yes, swing can be learned — from listening to recordings, copying, etc)

[pamosmusic]

I'll also add, that it's totally fine if you just don't give a crap. The best practice is generally the practice that you'll actually do. So enjoying something and finding it rewarding is nothing to sneeze at.

I just think it's important, that if you're practicing and want to work on something, you should generally be realistic and specific about what it is you're working on.

[Christian Miller]

The history jazz is people giving a crap about weird things no one else cares about for reasons they barely themselves understand.


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[Spook410]

Finding areas for disagreement is fine. And I do care. There are a great many like me who have been playing jazz for less than their entire life and are enjoying learning as everything is still shiny and new. Gigs are a new thing and something to get excited about. Discovering variations and substitutions. A late night pass through a song that leaves you satisfied and awake. For myself and all those going through the same stages, passing on our experiences, good and bad, is important. Doesn't make our views the most correct but discussion allows those with the logical wherewithal to sort things to find a workable path.

I do think that pro players and educators sometimes forget what it was like to learn music in general and jazz in particular in the first place. Everything becomes an advanced topic. Sometimes it's silly like 'I record my own tracks for learning..' forgetting the rather simple catch 22 that you're learning the song and don't yet know it. Sometimes it's forgetting the transition from fighting just to get the chords in place to everything feeling like you've always known it while you now focus on higher brain functions. So they think about the drummer for The Bad Plus and what that might mean to the advance of those reading these posts. Rather than remembering what it's like talking to a folk player about what a flat 5 chord is and why you might like to use it. So a bit of conjecture:

Take your average-in-the-field folk/rock/country guitar player and ask them to play with a metronome under scrutiny. Generally, they can't. And in the settings they frequent everyone is drifting about. Sounds sloppy and it is. Kind of awful at times. But certainly typical.

Take someone who has been practicing with iReal for a year or three and set them down with a metronome. No problem staying with it because they play with a rigid tempo every day.

From that baseline you can move on to bigger and better things. But learning to track to a tempo does matter in all music. In jazz, unlike many other kinds of music, we're going to play around with it quite a lot. However, I find playing with those who can't keep basic time challenging and I see it as a basic skill. Some believe a tool like iReal doesn't teach that but that has not been my experience.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

There are a great many like me who have been playing jazz for less than their entire life and are enjoying learning as everything is still shiny and new. Gigs are a new thing and something to get excited about. Discovering variations and substitutions. A late night pass through a song that leaves you satisfied and awake.

I love your enthusiasm and the delight with which you approach this. But you've gotten the idea that the joy and wonderment you experience goes away for long time players, and that's simply not true. I've been gigging since I was 12 (which was over 6 decades ago). I remember full well the incredible delight I got out of playing lines from great recordings when I was starting out. The first time I played a full improvised verse of D Natural Blues (on The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery) I thought I was going to burst with joy. I was 14 and it was the first time that I actually felt like I was getting somewhere as a guitarist. Even today, when I make another tune "mine" and can play it with comfortable fingering and chording that sounds just right to me, I can't help but smile.

Sure, weddings and parties can be boring. But the challenge is to make every tune you play sound as good as it can. The joy is in sharing this with bandmates who have the same approach. If I never play Raindrops Keep Falling on my Head or What Are You Doing The Rest of Your Life again it will be too soon. After the hundreth time, I really started to hate tunes like that. But I learned to try anew at each gig to make even the dullest tunes swing more or somehow sound better. The older you get, the more you realize how little you know and how much more you can accomplish.

I still look forward to picking up my guitar every day. There's still a lot of excitement in finding new ways to play old tunes and in playing familiar things better than you ever did before. Accompanying vocalists is pure joy for me. Every once in a while, one will call a tune in a really odd key or come up with a truly different take on it. I love to play old tunes in new ways - a waltz in 4 or 5, a swing tune as funk, or a bossa as a ballad. I still sometimes get up in the middle of the night, go into the living room, and quietly try a new idea or a new tune without waking my wife. I even get a thrill from finding out that I've been playing a tune wrong for 50 years and re-learning it. I'm not alone. Many of the players with whom I regularly gig feel the same way. I know this because we talk about it, and it's evident in our interactions. I record most of my gigs, and I send the files to my bandmates. We review them like Monday morning quarterbacks and discuss how we can make music sound better.

Sorry, BB - but the thrill ain't gone.