Words of Warning to Newbies!

[pamosmusic]

I do think that pro players and educators sometimes forget what it was like to learn music in general and jazz in particular in the first place.

Well I should hope not, though honestly you’re probably right.

But I consider part of my job as a teacher to be remembering that stuff. And another part of it to be remembering the stuff I neglected or wish I’d done differently.

Everything becomes an advanced topic.

To that end, I don’t really think of time as being an advanced topic—eighth notes quarter notes, basic accent patterns — though it is something I guess I still work on. It seems you’d agree with that, but the disagreement is here:

Take someone who has been practicing with iReal for a year or three and set them down with a metronome. No problem staying with it because they play with a rigid tempo every day.

I have not found this to be even remotely true. I work with some aspiring jazz players, obviously, but my bread and butter has always been rock and blues folks who just want to work on general musicianship, and even with widespread use of iReal amongst the jazzers, I’ve noticed next to no difference in the way these various musicians take to the metronome. It’s a train wreck for a little while and we take baby steps, and after some work with it, they generally all do quite well, regardless of what kind of music they’re into.

As an illustration, Blues and rock soloing tends to have a looser relationship to the beat, sometimes locked in and sometimes floating. This is a super cool effect but can just be bad time in someone who’s just approximating (sheepishly raises hand) … so rock guys moving over to jazz tend to keep this relationship to the beat when they’re playing over backing tracks, unless they’ve spent a bit of time with a metronome, transcribing, or both.

From that baseline you can move on to bigger and better things. But learning to track to a tempo does matter in all music. In jazz, unlike many other kinds of music, we're going to play around with it quite a lot.

Of course it matters, though I’d beg to differ that we play with tempo more in jazz than in other music. It’s freer with time — syncopations, cross rhythms, the stretching is the eighth notes sometimes, etc — than other music tends to be but in terms of tempo everyone’s a little looser than we give credit for, unless they’re recording with a click or whatever.

Again … I tell every one of my jazz students to get iReal, and tell them it’s worth it when they balk at the price. It’s an incredible tool. Then again, a lawnmower is also an incredible tool, but I don’t generally use it to weed in the garden.

[Spook410]

My passion for verbosity aside and I will go practice now.. but are you just talking about simple swing as in the treatment of 1/8 notes? iReal does that with style choices though maybe not well and not sure how it would constrain the student applying a swing feel in melody and solos. However, it doesn't do more complex things like The Bad Plus (not fixated on them, but a good example of a band applying complex rhythms and in any case everyone should give them a listen).

Having students you and others here get exposed to a diverse group while I can only speak for myself. Metronomes and vinyl and triplets all round..

[Jonah]

I never had trouble keeping time with the classic rock and blues I have been playing for years, but now that I am getting really serious about jazz, I decided to do things right and start using a metronome. I have been practicing a few tunes for a few months and they sounded pretty good. I figured once I had the notes down, I would start using a metronome. Big mistake! The other day I started to play the same tunes to a metronome and just could not do it! No matter how much I slowed down the bad habits of improper timing I had developed were killing me and I felt like I had taken three steps forward and was now five steps back.

The problem was especially apparent with notes that are held longer a long rests- I would tend to rush and not hold for the full time required. Also, mixing quarte eighth and triplet notes in unusual groupings were a big problem. It's been four days, and I am finally making progress at very slow speeds and am less frustrated, but I feel like I would have been much better off if I used the metronome from the start. They say if you want to learn to play golf start with lessons as bad habits are harder to break once they become ingrained- it's the same principal, here. Please learn from my mistake!

If anyone has some good exercises for learning to play with a metronome, please share them.

Would be good to hear it... because time feel is so different with different people.

For some people using metronome could be misleading actually.... so it depends. Not the same for everyone.

I think it is just important to understand that metronome gives an 'objective' reference. And the real music has no objective time feel. It is always personal and in a group depends on many personal factors of the players combined (or it can be conventional when you have to align it in a group).

So the metronome is not a reference but it could be good to use it from time to time to see how you can re-act and respond to the timing implied from outside.

But I admit it can be useful practice for such regular rhythmic genres as jazz or rock.

I use it rarely but sometimes it is nice to practice with it, especially if you do not have play with people a lot

[Reg]

Yea... most amateur players don't have good time... hell... same with many pros.

Generally I find that most musicians are either..... Time leaders or Time followers.

The difference can be as simple as being able to Sub-divide.

Subdividing isn't just simple division of the beat or making quarter notes into eights or triplets. It's about using the concept with larger sections of space. How you shape phrases, 2 bars, 4 bars, 8 bars etc...
How you rhythmically, harmonically, melodically etc... shape the space your playing within.

Again take some lessons from a working professional Drummer. You'll learn that you need to get past counting or just feeling the beat.... you'll begin to learn rhythmic phrases with targets. Standard rhythmic patterns and their variations.

This generally also develops into understanding Harmonic Rhythm. Not simple changes... but Chord patterns that rhythmically imply ... Targets.

Targets are simply .... a means of feeling , (or counting ) larger sections of space. So instead of feeling or counting the beat etc... your counting... which will become feeling... Longer sections of space or time.

What this also becomes is... getting past just playing vanilla or straight time. Which is what playing in a jazz style will become.

Practice jamming with Drum Tracts. Most elec. Keyboards have drum tracts.... get a looper etc...

Become good at playing simple chord patterns like I VI II V's then add III VI II V... then expand the pattern into the standard "A" section of most Bop tunes or 8 bar phrase with Targets.

Playing Live will obviously get your shi* together better than anything. But you generally need to do the standard work to be able to hang playing Live.

Don't become a Time follower... that doesn't mean you need to lead. But you do need to be aware of where your going.

[pamosmusic]

Something to add to Reg there …

It might not be plausible to get a lesson with a working drummer, but if we’re talking about good uses of technology, there are about as many jazz drum educators on YouTube as there are jazz guitar ones.

Ari Hoenig can get advanced pretty quickly, but he’s a gem. Really interesting stuff. Lots of others out there too.

[Christian Miller]

Iverson had this thing about how every jazz musician should be able to hold down a basic 4/4 swing beat on drums.

If nothing else it’s a fun coordination exercise.


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[Christian Miller]

Yes, very revealing.

And I got a TC Ditto Looper now and practice to my own Schwing.

Powerful practice tool. I don’t use it much because I don’t really plug in much… but yes, it really shows you.


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[Bobby Timmons]

I've decided to focus on solo so I'm gonna be hittin the metronome a lot rather than drum genius.

[mr. beaumont]

Actually drumgenius is great for solo playing, because eventually you start to picture drums in your head as you play. You end up leaving a lot more space.

[Bobby Timmons]

You're right, I've noticed that I leave more space playing solo with drum genius. The playback of only the piano sounds sparser when using drums rather than a metronome during recording. I suppose it's probably useful to use both.

[2bornot2bop]

I discovered Drum Genius from Adam at Open Studio. I was floored by the number of tracks taken from actual jazz recordings. I’m addicted too it, especially playing alone on piano. There’s nothing like having an actual beat or groove to play along with.

[Woody Sound]

BW is a fabulous musician. Violin, kb, vocal. She has an incredibly annoying habit to me. When learning/practicing parts by herself, she often cuts short the length of rests between phrases. It's "economy practicing" - she's just learning the notes. When she performs, solo, plays with other people, a combo, or full orchestra, she's perfectly fine. But it drives me nuts at home!

[Alter]

I personally wouldn't recommend the Moises app unless someone really needs it. Unlike other apps mentioned in this thread it requires subscriptions (which I couldn't even find what they cost at their website), and it sells your email, financial info and a bunch of other personal data to websites and companies (as stated at their app description). There's a free plan with 5 songs per month.

[emanresu]

Btw, didn't occur to me earlier here. I'm currently trying to get good time&groove myself.
It seems that comping to yourself reveals a lot. When only practicing tunes&soloing, but neglecting
comping... because of the obsession.. is actually a horrible way to go - when timing and the feel of metre is what you're after.
Comping puts yourself into the position of "metronome". Keeping it simple but convincing helps so much when practiced with care.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Btw, didn't occur to me earlier here. I'm currently trying to get good time&groove myself.
It seems that comping to yourself reveals a lot. When only practicing tunes&soloing, but neglecting
comping... because of the obsession.. is actually a horrible way to go - when timing and the feel of metre is what you're after.
Comping puts yourself into the position of "metronome". Keeping it simple but convincing helps so much when practiced with care.

I'd say you need good time and groove for both comping and soloing.

[emanresu]

I'd say you need good time and groove for both comping and soloing.

Yes. But my point was, comping is like becoming the time-keeper, and it seems very many people tend to get that skill to a level that is "just enough".

[emanresu]

Heh, it was Christian's comment somewhere that reminded this - that the quarter notes are the hardest to keep good.
There practicing comping helps a ton. With fingers at least. Thumb pumping the bass all the time.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Yes. But my point was, comping is like becoming the time-keeper, and it seems very many people tend to get that skill to a level that is "just enough".

You should always be your own time-keeper.

(BTW I don't give a shit on this "don't swing too hard" thing that many people preach. And I never had a complaint about my swing.)

[Bobby Timmons]

^ So true. The pianist kid's face at 0:50 with BH dominating the swing.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

^ So true. The pianist kid's face at 0:50 with BH dominating the swing.

We have disagreed on this before: I do see neither me nor you in the position to call students of the Royal Conservatory at La Hague "kids".

[Bobby Timmons]

Do you have to be contemptuous about everything?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Do you have to be contemptuous about everything?

I assume you have watched at least some of those Frans Elsen videos from the Barry Harris workshops at the Royal Dutch Conservatory at La Hague.

What I find contemptuous is to call folks "kids" who are immediately (or almost immediately) able to put into realization a tempo a formerly unknown assignment by a strict and demanding teacher like Barry Harris.

I am sure you could not do it, I know for sure I myself could not do it. So I am rather a little more humble.

[Bobby Timmons]

Bop Head you're ridiculous. You need to calm down with the trying to establish authority in literally every instance you can find where you can construe the other party as committing a jazz wisdom or even pedantic faux pas. It's annoying af. I'm open to anyone's wisdom, but when you go around trying to find any opportunity you can to subjugate me.. when I'm a better player than you, that's just ridiculous and I'm going to have to bring it up overtly and tell you to stop. I heartily agree with you and that's your reply?

I assume you have watched at least some of those Frans Elsen videos from the Barry Harris workshops at the Royal Dutch Conservatory at La Hague.

Am I supposed to have watched all of them? Or my jazz wisdom is below yours? I try to educate myself continuously and to a reasonably high level, but I don't binge watch everything. I started watching many of them when I found them in 2016 not long after they were uploaded to youtube. I formerly studied with Tony Monaco who is the 2nd most distinguished living jazz organist in the world behind Larry Goldings. Now I'm in Open Studio pro where I take group lessons with 4 outstanding musicians: pianists Peter Martin, Jeremy Siskind, and Adam Maness, and the acclaimed BH material guitarist Chris Parks. Who are you studying with?

What I find contemptuous..

Lol. It's not contemptuous, it's endearing. That would be my same reaction if I saw BH in person laying down the law playing in the style of Bud Powell solo at 250 and I knew he'd hold me accountable to playing like that.

..is to call folks "kids"

It isn't off base to call college age people kids. Many college age people are still in or partially in adolescence. Some people in that class were older, some were probably established adults, but not necessarily all of them. Some literally were still adolescents and not full adults yet.

Further, why do you have to instigate over the most pedantic nonsense? Seriously?

..who are immediately able to put into realization a tempo a formerly unknown assignment by a strict and demanding teacher like Barry Harris. I am sure you could not do it.

My 1st day in Chris Parks's class, I executed all the BH line building material he gave me in tempo. I only had to switch to rubato when he built a line for me and had me run it.. A classmate congratulated me on bashing everything out my 1st day.

I know for sure I myself could not do it.

I know you can't do it. You're the beginner who has to go around trying to assert authority everywhere.

So I am rather a little more humble.

You're humble if you can pander to the supposed pecking order to try to raise yourself up. But I'm not sure that's true humility..

[djg]

(BTW I don't give a shit on this "don't swing too hard" thing that many people preach. And I never had a complaint about my swing.)

i guess we have to take your word for it.

[pamosmusic]

i guess we have to take your word for it.

You need to learn to trust more.