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The metronome is an exercise in absolute time, minimal and thus difficult, and very useful. Then there are apps like Drumgenius which is great, still a metronome, but with real drumming and groove. These days I practice acoustic guitar with a metronome, and jazz with drum genius.
The metronome helps with time, jamming with recordings helps with groove, so do them both! And finally, playing with others puts all that to the test, since one of the many interactions in live playing is the musicians sense of time and groove, and everyone in a band will have their own!
One thing that has helped me a lot was taking a few lessons with a great drummer, and working through drum material. Drummers on the average practice more rhythmically difficulty material than guitarists, polyrhythms, extended rhythms, subdivisions, etc, so it's like diving in deep waters, you then come back to simpler stuff with a sense of authority. Kind of playing a simple arpeggio after going through the bebop era type of arpeggio substitution and superimposition.
Metronome problems are easy to fix, but it takes some time. I've always thought time is the most important thing in music, with melody second and everything else coming after.
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08-25-2024 05:20 AM
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Keep saying them numbers with good time feel also.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I'll settle for even, calm, counting to start with. Originally Posted by emanresu
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Even if 60 other threads exist on the topic of metronome an use of said equipment I do find that this thread (the 61st) bring forth new inspiring angles
And especially inspiring to me are the above examples. This so much better than AI 
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Okay. Originally Posted by Spook410
I did say that if you practice with iReal, you’ll be good at playing with iReal. I don’t think that’s terribly controversial, but I did think the thread was about the OP realizing his time wasn’t great. If you want to have a good internal clock, you need to practice using your internal clock, rather than your iPad’s.
Also just as a matter of principal, I’ll probably just continue answering questions as though the person asking them has some intention of trying at some point in the future to play with another person.
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Btw. There is yet another angle to ponder about good time.
Many failures happen when someone else plays out of time or getting confused about their rhythms.
When wasn't sure that I got it right, I let go of my own.. "bounce" and tried to pick it up as fast as possible.
I saw some guys who grinned when something like that happened (someone played in bad time or crazy rhythms) but kept their own time no matter what.
Maybe the goal should be starting to trust your own time? Through hard work, of course.
edit:also, the tune or a thing has to be learned 100%. Because the thinking time messes with timing also.Last edited by emanresu; 08-25-2024 at 09:00 AM.
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A school of fish or a flock of birds looks like they are holding synchrony with their shifts in direction because each individual is watching and following the single lead fish or bird. In an orchestra the lead is the conductor; in jazz the lead is the drummer - who owns the rhythm and form. Originally Posted by emanresu
This is why Pat Metheny said the leader of a band is always the drummer. Everyone else should be maintaining their song pace from the drummer, who by mutually agreed convention is "always right". No one else can be independently "right" if they are not right with the drummer. It is with respect to the drummer's pace by which all leading, lagging, variations in beat width, and other phrasing devices by others are made manifest musically.
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It's a nice sentiment. But with fewer jazz players and more technology, I think the future will be somewhat different and possibly the typical collaborative trajectory of any given OP will not be what we have seen in times past. A subjective view to be sure so we'll see. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Regardless of who or what you’re playing with, practicing with ireal won’t make your time better. Originally Posted by Spook410
And still. Jazz involves other people. Got to. Call me a stick-in-the-mud
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I've seen a dramatic increase in solo players using complex sequenced or looped backing tracks since Covid. Most of the local restaurants we've visited or passed with live music now use a lone wolf and his or her electronic band. Some make their own tracks, some use a simple bass track like Mr Sunny Bass, some use premade sampled or sequenced tracks, and some use a full karaoke backing. It's no different from playing with iReal and I've heard some really weak players doing it. The heavier the backing, the sloppier the player often is - and audiences eating their dinner don't seem to notice or care. Practicing with iReal is probably as good a way as any to prepare for this kind of playing, whether casual or for gigs. Originally Posted by Spook410
True solo players need impeccable timing as well as the ability to maintain a steady tempo through an entire tune. I often hear solo players start out at a ballad tempo and end up playing the tune as medium swing. You have to be able to maintain the pace of a tune from beginning to end, especially if you're backing a vocalist or other soloist. Those who accompany themselves are just as subject to the tempo gremlin. For some reason, almost everyone who has a problem maintaining tempo speeds up as the tune goes on - almost nobody slows down.
You'e right, Spook - technology has spawned a whole new class of marginal players with gigs.
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Helps if your drummer is Antonio Sanchez Originally Posted by pauln
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The bass player might disagree with you. Originally Posted by pauln
Try playing some other tempo when a bass player is walking quarter notes. If the bass player rushes, everyone rushes.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
This thread is (mostly) about learning jazz tunes and improving your timing. I think tools like iRealPro work well in that regard. Becoming a professional player is well beyond that. If it makes you feel any better, even the marginal players will be supplanted by tech pretty soon (IMHO).
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iReal is horrendous. If you have to play with a backing track there’s better options out there. It’s best to play with humans, recorded or live, where possible. For working on your time use a metronome to diagnose issues*. Y’know if your aim is to get better at the jazz guitar.
Making your own backing tracks is a good exercise for the more experienced and confident player and straightforward with modern DAW tech.
*most agree with this though interestingly its not universal.
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I am still waiting for a musically gifted programmer who puts Barry Harris' sixth/seventh and leading diminished scales -- including borrowing -- into an automated accompaniment algorithm. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
What I really hate about iReal Pro and BIAB is that you have to include all the altered extensions into the chord symbols to get something approximately musical.
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Again, if you want to improve your time, you have to work on your time, not iReal’s. Originally Posted by Spook410
And technology replaced most musicians a long time ago … round about the invention of the CD changer.
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I worked for the largest, most popular, and most expensive wedding & commercial band group in the Philadelphia area from ‘69 into the ‘80s. By the early ‘70s, the cost of a 5 piece band for a 4 hour wedding with duo for cocktail hour was about $1500. I remember saying many times that if the 14 leaders in the office were wise, they’d stop raising their prices every year because DJs were going to take over the lion’s share of the business. But the 5 who owned the office kept it up while they got new Cadillacs every year, golfed at their country clubs a few days a week, and generally lived very high on the hog. Originally Posted by Spook410
The leader for whom I played regularly told me not to worry - “nothing will replace live music”.
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Why not just record an accompaniment using these ideas over a simple bass and drums track? Originally Posted by Bop Head
One should practice comping, so this is work you’d be doing anyway.
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I practice comping all the time. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Voila Originally Posted by Bop Head
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I disagree about iRealPro for learning jazz standards and have found it to be easy and effective. And I don't see how electronic drums are bad while metronomes are good. Of course, I just want to learn songs and play music and I do think it has improved my internal clock.
In any case, it doesn't really matter what folks around here think of iRealPro or how it fits into their lesson plans or world view. It's hugely popular for learning jazz standards and will remain so for the foreseeable. As future generations of this tech addresses current shortcomings it will continue to dominate. Why it's good:
1. It's cheap
2. It's a lot more fun than a metronome and Realbook so it keeps up interest
3. It runs on android and Apple devices
4. It's not overly buggy
5. It's easy to operate. Download, search, study folders.. everything is easy. Controls are intuitive.
6. Can play via bluetooth to pretty much anything.
7. You can edit the tunes, change keys instantly, play the tune in different styles
8. Almost any tune is available including a lot of non-jazz tunes
9. Ubiquitous. See those guys pulling out their phones at jazz jams?
10. Facilitates the transition to bigger and better things.
11. Provides an outlet when finding other jazz players to play with isn't practical or possible (not every place is NYC or LA)
11. Or.. lets marginal players enjoy music more and play gigs that keep real professional players who have invested their lives to jazz guitar from making a decent living
What isn't great:
1. Sounds and styles can suck. Drums and bass are pretty good. Piano's are awful.
2. Inconsistent. Some arrangements are useless, some are pretty good
3. Doesn't help with melody so you still have to use your ears or find sheet music
4. Easy to outgrow as you get better though the edit capability allows for the introduction of variations you might wish to look into
4. Not adaptive. Does the same thing every time. This will change as the tech evolves.
5. Draws derision from those who wish the world had not evolved in the direction it did
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I was the engineering manager for a $50M a year aerospace program with over 100 people ultimately reporting to me building and maintaining critical national security infrastructure. Of course this followed my work at NASA designing and building the first 3 generations of networks for Mission Control. Now, 70 and long retired, I'm a marginal jazz guitar player playing over backing tracks and even doing the occasional coffee shop gig. Something I kind of enjoy.
Hope you invested all that cash well and are enjoying a comfortable retirement in a nice setting. Must be nice having all those musical skills.
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Agree with Spook. Metronome good, iReal bad isn't true.
It's more effective to cross train yourself to get good time.
1. Group playing
2. Playing with recordings
3. Backing tracks
4. Drum tracks
5. Metronome
6. Can work on your time feel completely solo too
It's all beneficial.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 08-26-2024 at 05:34 PM.
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Ahhhh - therein lies the rub! We got paid scale - the leaders pocketed the bulk of it. To be fair, they paid every union mandated fee. When I doubled on keys (which was often, since we didn't have a piano player on most gigs), I was paid and extra $25 or so to double. I was paid $5 "cartage" for bringing an amp, and additional cartage if I brought my Wurlitzer electric piano or my Farfisa organ. As I recall, sidemen got $100 for a 4 hour noncontinuous gig (i.e. 40 on, 20 off) and about $135 for a continuous gig (55 on, 5 off). I was paid extra ($25?) for playing a cocktail hour before the event, which I and our tenor player almost always did. But 4 sidemen usually cost the office no more than $500 on a noncontinuous gig for which the leader got $1500. Originally Posted by Spook410
I'm not at all complaining. The office maintained payroll, coordinated every gig so we knew where to go and how to get there, and took very good care of us - so we got a lot for what they made on us. And I played at least 3 gigs a week for them between summer '69 and my wedding some years later (at which point I was in graduate school and cut back a lot for a few years to be attentive to my education and my new wife). The office also got a lot of requests for sidemen (often as "emergencies", which is a source of many wild stories). So we all got a lot of additional gigs.
I have worked for leaders who paid very very well. My favorite leader and one of my favorite people in the business was a woman whose stage name was Harriet Fay. She was one fine keyboard player and a great entertainer, and she ran an office similar to Music Associates (the big office described above) but much much smaller. She had 2 or 3 other leaders in her stable, and the bands were really excellent. She hired me a few years after MA ceased to be, and she paid me double scale on most gigs. I never knew who was going to be on the stand. Like MA, she used only top players from the area (and me, whose advantage was that I know a million tunes and don't grandstand). But because she treated us so much better than most leaders, everybody was really happy on most gigs and the music reflected it. She got us great gigs, too. In the same month, I played 2 university board of directors' balls, several ordinary weddings, a 9 piece blues wedding, and a huge blues bash in the Flatiron Building in NYC. And she had me lead both of the blues gigs. Sadly, she passed away very young.
We retired to a 2 BR apartment when I was 72. I drive a 9 year old Toyota and haven't worn a suit or tie in years. My retirement is quite comfortable in the social and physical sense, and I spend as carefully now as I saved from the day I earned my first pay when I was 12. I have absolutely no complaints or regrets, and I'd gladly live the same life again. But this time I wouldn't be quite so resentful of the bandleaders who killed our golden goose. The rise of tech was inevitable, and keeping prices low for live bands would not have changed much except to delay things a bit. Best of all, my wife is happy - so I'm happy
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I don’t think I said iReal is bad?
I have and and use it. But the samples aren’t good and it doesn’t swing at all so it’s not going to help you with your time.
How is it different than a metronome?
It gives you every subdivision and fills in the gaps for you. You have quarters in the bass, eighth notes in the ride, syncopations in the piano, etc.
A metronome just gives you the click.
As I said earlier, if you’re using the metronome correctly, you should be starting to use it less and less — to check your time rather than to provide you with every beat or subdivision.
Playing eighth notes when someone is playing eighth notes is easy. Playing eighth notes when someone is playing quarters is a bit harder. Playing eighths when someone is playing half notes is even harder and so on.
Not to mention that practicing your time … and playing swing eighth notes when a robot is playing awful swing will be actively bad.
And of course it’s fine for learning tunes. I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said it wasn’t useful for working on your time.
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