Too late to be a great jazz guitarist starting at 26 years old?

[mr. beaumont]

Re: Don't spurn the blues

That's fantastic advice.

[Bobby Timmons]

I more agree with Ukena. Yes, there's the instinct for all musicians to be self critical and strive for continual improvement, but if you're not a foo with respect to realization, you should be able to be happy and even find continual happiness about achieving milestones. That's how it's been for me.

[AllanAllen]

Practicing the guitar brings me joy.

I don’t really think about my playing
level. I am humble in public because people don’t like a braggart, but I’m no longer concerned with labels like, beginner, intermediate or advanced.

There’s guys that are better than me that can’t get a gig, and guys that are worse turning gigs down because they’re so busy.

I did play tonight and got another booking before I left. That brought me a lot of joy.

Edit: I guess my point is, I don’t see how you can enjoy mastery without gigging. And in line with that, you don’t need mastery to gig, you need persistence and desire. So, I don’t understand be good be happy. Thats too abstract for me. Good is a moving
goal that you never reach.

[Bobby Timmons]

Well that's a good perspective to have, and you should enjoy music at whatever stage you're at, but that completely isn't true that good is a moving goal that you never reach. You think if you can play correctly, keep good time, play the head, outline the changes, do some tech stuff, phrase well, play an inspiring solo, not make clams etc, that hasn't achieved being good?

[Christian Miller]

Ahh, but at what age did he start playing musical instruments? Idem for Mancuso who "was already quite good at 16"; how long had he been playing by then?

I used to be friends with a then up-and-coming singer and the little group she gave concerts with in a music café in Paris. "French-Latin chansons" I'd call it, so a mixture of traditional French music with lots of eastern-Europe, klezmer'y influences and quite a bit of jazz thrown in. The doublebass player was a jazzer, the piano/accordeon player was classically schooled. Very good player, but he mostly played from scores, including of the solos he had prepared.
I think very few people in the audience realised that he wasn't "properly improvising". I certainly found nothing wrong with it; his playing was enjoyable and their concerts not so frequent that I got to think "but that sounds a lot like how he played it last time". Plus, well, if you're into buying records of performers you appreciate, you get used to hearing the same solo performed exactly the same way time and time again.
No idea to what extent you can get away with that approach in the (US) jazz scene but I'd hope it's not enough of a showstopper to make it unusable as a stepping stone.

He’d played rock first I think


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[AllanAllen]

Well that's a good perspective to have, and you should enjoy music at whatever stage you're at, but that completely isn't true that good is a moving goal that you never reach. You think if you can play correctly, keep good time, play the head, outline the changes, do some tech stuff, phrase well, play an inspiring solo, not make clams etc, that hasn't achieved being good?

Internally, it’s not got enough. For example, last night we played Song For My Father and I tried mixing quartal comping into it. It went great and the trumpet player even complimented me. I was pleased, but I was already thinking about how I couldn’t do that on a major tune and needed to work on major quartals. So I’m not good, or at least, not as good as I want. It’s a moving goal.

If I saw someone else do it, I would certainly compliment them and think they were good. In my opinion, anyone who can solidly play through a song, even if it’s Sweet Home Chicago or Tennessee Whiskey, is a good musician.

[Bobby Timmons]

Well that's your perspective on your level. Noone has command of every skill. However, there are players whose proficiency isn't deficient by their inward standards, or objectively outward by the quality of their music because they've achieved a baseline solid level of playing. Therefor good is not a movable goal.

[pamosmusic]

Internally, it’s not got enough. For example, last night we played Song For My Father and I tried mixing quartal comping into it. It went great and the trumpet player even complimented me. I was pleased, but I was already thinking about how I couldn’t do that on a major tune and needed to work on major quartals. So I’m not good, or at least, not as good as I want. It’s a moving goal.

If I saw someone else do it, I would certainly compliment them and think they were good. In my opinion, anyone who can solidly play through a song, even if it’s Sweet Home Chicago or Tennessee Whiskey, is a good musician.

I get what you’re saying here. It’s taken a long time but I’ve gotten pretty good at separating performing from practicing. You get better at playing, but you also get better at hearing and you know more … so as you get better, you also are able to hear in more detail and are able to hold yourself to a higher standard. So you’re past a certain point, I feel like you’re kind of always hearing mistakes or things to improve on, no matter how good you get.

But I think it’s also really important to silo performance away from that mentality. Performing should be fun, and always being unsatisfied with performance is a good way to burn out and stop having fun.

[AllanAllen]

I get what you’re saying here. It’s taken a long time but I’ve gotten pretty good at separating performing from practicing. You get better at playing, but you also get better at hearing and you know more … so as you get better, you also are able to hear in more detail and are able to hold yourself to a higher standard. So you’re past a certain point, I feel like you’re kind of always hearing mistakes or things to improve on, no matter how good you get.

But I think it’s also really important to silo performance away from that mentality. Performing should be fun, and always being unsatisfied with performance is a good way to burn out and stop having fun.

This is basically what I'm trying to say.

[pamosmusic]

This is basically what I'm trying to say.

Yeah and I have trouble with that so I do some little things. One is that I never record performances. Which is weird, admittedly. I really enjoy when other people record me and send me what they have, but the idea of recording myself for the purpose of listening back is a bummer.

[DawgBone]

Internally, it’s not got enough. For example, last night we played Song For My Father and I tried mixing quartal comping into it. It went great and the trumpet player even complimented me. I was pleased, but I was already thinking about how I couldn’t do that on a major tune and needed to work on major quartals. So I’m not good, or at least, not as good as I want. It’s a moving goal.

If I saw someone else do it, I would certainly compliment them and think they were good. In my opinion, anyone who can solidly play through a song, even if it’s Sweet Home Chicago or Tennessee Whiskey, is a good musician.

I don't know what quartals are, I thought that was something you fed into the jukebox. I used to do Song For My Father in E about 15-20 years ago with some dudes I was playing with at the time. Never was any good at anything past the melody line. Probably wasn't any good with the melody line. These days I do Senor Blues with the Taj Mahal lyrics and I suck at that one and have been wanting to ditch it but the band likes it cause they get showcased, drum solo, bass solo, and all. I get into major pentatonic stuff more than minor stuff. It makes me feel better inside.

I can speak with authority that the estate of Horace Silver wants serious compensation through Harry Fox or whoever it was for putting his stuff for sale on wax. I think I paid about 70+ bucks for licensing 500 hard copies in 2014, which was a good deal more than some other songs I recorded around that time.

Sweet Home Chicago is one of the few common straight ahead I-IV-V standards I still do. When someone asks for Tennessee Whiskey (way too often) I tell them we's a blues band and we only drink Kentucky Bourbon but thanks for offering to buy us a drink anyways, lol

[AllanAllen]

Quartal chords are minor chords that fit on the neck well and you can slide them around real easy just like a 9th.

They were in this comping book I worked through.

https://www.amazon.com/Easy-Jazz-Gui...1edcee83ab9907

[RLetson]

Sideways shift: My understanding of licensing fees for recordings (via, say, Harry Fox) is that the compulsory license fee is not set by the composer/rights owner but is fixed according to number of units produced and length of play of the track. Horace Silver was an ASCAP artist, but perhaps it's not Harry Fox that administers his compositions. On the other hand, the statutory/compulsory license fee is currently just over $.09/song, as far as I can tell, independent of what agency is managing the account.

(I haven't had to deal with recordings, but I have had to wrangle PRO fees and rules as a member of our folk society's board.)

[Christian Miller]

Yeah and I have trouble with that so I do some little things. One is that I never record performances. Which is weird, admittedly. I really enjoy when other people record me and send me what they have, but the idea of recording myself for the purpose of listening back is a bummer.

Yep I’ve gone off that

In a way the gig is beyond my control. It’s easy to fixate on the mistakes. But what is in my control is the practicing before hand, so I record that.


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[John A.]

In general, no, 26 is not too young to get good enough to play jazz in bars. Lots of people have gotten that far with late starts (guilty as charged, your honor), and one does not need to be “great" for that. Pretty good and good at networking/hustling up gigs will suffice. The bandstands of the world are full of people who are nowhere near “great.”

Could the OP achieve that? Or go beyond that and actually become great? That’s up to his innate talent and work ethic, neither of which have been demonstrated on this thread so far. IOW, show us what you got. Maybe you’re already great, who knows?

[ruger9]

I spent my 20's getting decent at "solo guitar." But solo guitar really isn't jazz...

Oh boy...

[Doug B]

But solo guitar really isn't jazz...

Joe Pass might disagree...

[Jonah]

Hey guys i want to ask you this(may sound silly) is it too late for me to become a great jazz player starting this late? I want to get good and play gigs at bars while im young. I played guitar from 16-18 and now my interested spiked again big time. Thanks in advance to everyone!

So if most people here say yes, too late, would you then put this crazy idea aside and focus on achievable goal like plumbing or accountant career?

[mr. beaumont]

Joe Pass might disagree...

Joe also played jazz with others. I was in my living room.

If all you play is by yourself (like I was) its like saying you're into BBQ but you've never done a brisket.

[wintermoon]

I don't know what quartals are, I thought that was something you fed into the jukebox. I used to do Song For My Father in E about 15-20 years ago with some dudes I was playing with at the time. Never was any good at anything past the melody line. Probably wasn't any good with the melody line. These days I do Senor Blues with the Taj Mahal lyrics and I suck at that one and have been wanting to ditch it but the band likes it cause they get showcased, drum solo, bass solo, and all. I get into major pentatonic stuff more than minor stuff. It makes me feel better inside.

I can speak with authority that the estate of Horace Silver wants serious compensation through Harry Fox or whoever it was for putting his stuff for sale on wax. I think I paid about 70+ bucks for licensing 500 hard copies in 2014, which was a good deal more than some other songs I recorded around that time.

Sweet Home Chicago is one of the few common straight ahead I-IV-V standards I still do. When someone asks for Tennessee Whiskey (way too often) I tell them we's a blues band and we only drink Kentucky Bourbon but thanks for offering to buy us a drink anyways, lol

from the saxophone thread "Not sure I can respect a jazzer who can't also stick a 2 or 3 hour blues gig."

does that work the other way around too?

[AllanAllen]

from the saxophone thread "Not sure I can respect a jazzer who can't also stick a 2 or 3 hour blues gig."

does that work the other way around too?

I would not expect a blues guy to hang at a jazz gig. You're moving the barometer the wrong way.. Blues is the foundation of jazz.

[ruger9]

I would not expect a blues guy to hang at a jazz gig. You're moving the barometer the wrong way.. Blues is the foundation of jazz.

It goes both ways, I've heard jazzers try to play "authentic" blues, and it's not great.

Now, if the blues guy can play "jazzy blues" and the jazzer can play "bluesy jazz", then all is well, you just meet in the middle.

[wintermoon]

I would not expect a blues guy to hang at a jazz gig. You're moving the barometer the wrong way.. Blues is the foundation of jazz.

oh ok, I didn't know that. so does that mean that jazz musicians are more rounded than blues guys since they should be able to play both styles? or since blues is the foundation of jazz does that mean that there really aren't two exclusive styles?

[AllanAllen]

oh ok, I didn't know that. so does that mean that jazz musicians are more rounded than blues guys since they should be able to play both styles? or since blues is the foundation of jazz does that mean that there really aren't two exclusive styles?

Assuming you're being serious and not sarcastic.

Being good at one thing doesn't mean you're inherently good at another. The blues is one form of many that jazz musicians should have a grasp on, that doesn't mean you have Freddie King licks for days of the feel of BB King, but you should be able to easily navigate a blues form and play passable solos over it.

A jazz guy being more well rounded than a blues guy is an amateur way of thinking. Things are more complex than that.

I would suggest you watch the Herb Ellis instructional video on youtube, I'm basically parroting what he says.

[Ukena]

[...]I would suggest you watch the Herb Ellis instructional video on youtube, I'm basically parroting what he says.

Okay, let's go back then. If you're parroting what Herb Ellis says, why would you be so authoritative about blues and jazz? Why wouldn't you say, "According to Herb Ellis..." instead of making definitive statements?