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No need to move to NYC immediately unless he's positive he'd like it there regardless. That's a huge life challenge. There's still a good 5-10 years of woodshedding to get from beginner to where he'd need the NYC elevation over local jams.
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03-22-2024 10:02 PM
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There's something about the ambition to be "great" or a "beast" that reminds me of many of my wife's creative writing students*, who all too often seemed to want to get to the producer-of-bestsellers stage without going through the tiresome cycle of try/fail/try again/fail better that (in our experience) governs any skill-acquisition process worth attempting. And what drives that cycle is the doing itself--in my experience, you do art (write, play, compose, paint, whatever) because you can't not do it. And many of us (I raise my own hand immediately) do it despite recognizing that we will never be great or beasts--it's the doing that matters. If greatness comes (or is thrust upon one), that's the cherry on top of the doing. Though it is, of course, nice to do it well--which takes me back to try/fail, etc.
* She finally quit teaching CW when she could no longer endure reading undergrad fiction.
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I think the point of being young, at least for the adventurous, is not waiting to be “positive” about outcomes before doing stuff. Maybe the jazz thing won’t work out and something else will happen that’s equally or more interesting.
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
As for New York City, I moved away in 2015 and I can’t vouch for its current status as a jazz capital.
Honestly I think of jazz as a lovely thing that peaked many decades ago, the way I think of modernist painting or great literature. They once had a market. It’s kind of played out.
Anyway, I think there are other places where a guy who wanted to get good could get legitimately good. Not many, but some. I suspect the OP wasn’t putting that much emphasis on the word “great” in an enterprise that has a non-existent market.
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Jazz is 'played out'? Bruh. Why would something have to be popular to be legitimate?
About moving to NYC. I wouldn't want to live there and not be able to do jack shit without 1000 people in my face. But he can do what he wants. If he wants to move to NYC so he can woodshed basics and suck for many years before getting good then cool. Maybe he'll become a stock broker.
I'd argue that if you have the capacity to get good all you need is a computer.
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I never said jazz (or art or literature) wasn’t still legitimate, just that these once fairly robust markets are now pretty dried up. Somebody above mentioned “romantic notions” or something, and I think there is a great romance in pursuing any of these things out of love. That’s a damn good reason. These are great things. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I do think getting “great” or very good (inspired, fluent, credible) in jazz requires an active, interested setting in real rooms with humans. Pretty much like theater.
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Where I really improved my chops the most was going to Nashville. Everyone, I mean everyone, plays killer guitar there. Some dude changing oil "I see you got a guitar in that back seat". Yeah I play, you? "I'm just a couch picker". Two weeks later dude eats your lunch at a random jam session.
I got my ass handed to me one night real bad on the east side by a dude using a cheap Squier strat and a hot rod amp. I still haven't forgotten that education session. I had almost gotten my ass kicked by the block homies until the home owner came out and waved at me....just remember, it ain't an adventure until you wish you was home!!!
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It's funny you wrote this because i was saying to another guitar player last week that Nashville is the place where guitar players with big ego's go to die. Originally Posted by DawgBone
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It's the honest truth. You get checked everywhere you go and if you are serious you might do a little checking yourself sometimes. You walk into some music shop and you hear someone playing. "That's the most amazing guitarist I've ever heard in person". You go to another music shop and hear someone else playing. "No, THAT'S the most amazing guitarist I've ever heard in person.". It's everywhere. INSANE guitar players. And some of them aren't even out of high school. Some of them just play for fun. The guy who says he is a couch picker is who you need to beware of. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
I picked up a lot of acoustic fingerpicking there that I thought would never happen because so many guys can play that John Hurt style I was able to watch it first hand. I remember one night at the Bourbon street blues bar jam some random country dude with a white tele cut me to shreds real bad before I even got a chance to hit the stage. I did my thing and went home ass burned because some random dude who wasn't chicken picking at a country gig that night schooled me with all the Albert King licks on his tele. Disheartening but also motivating.
I left because everyone is so good and they are all competing for a very limited amount of 25-50 dollar per man gigs. Austin is a much larger market but nowhere near the guitar talent. Yes there are some great players here but Nashville man, that is a whole other world. I'm talking per capita. It's hard to believe, it sounds like exaggeration and bullshit, until you get there and hear it for yourself. That's where I'd go again if I just wanted to boost my chops.
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I don't have to go anywhere to get schooled by Matteo Mancuso. :P
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This brings up a good point: if you look around, you can find videos of Matteo playing at age 16. He was pretty good then but the amount of improvement he made in ten years was exponential. He went from being just another kid with a guitar to literally being one of the best players in the world. No doubt a lot of hard work - and loving to play even when it was hard work - went into that. What didn't go into that was not trying because somebody on the internet told him not to bother. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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There is no harm in trying. It is only jazz guitar. It is not like taking up mountaineering or heroin.
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We’ve entered an interesting spot where we can hear a players development documented for us online. Bruce Forman might say that no one wants to see how the sausage is made, but actually I think that there’s value in that for those looking to develop themselves, far be it for me to contradict the great Bruce. Originally Posted by starjasmine
It’s heartening for myself to hear that I too have developed somewhat over the past few years.
And I think it’s that feeling of ‘making progress’ (the reason Pablo Casals cited for practicing into his advanced years) which is itself somewhat addictive and a virtuous circle.
I also advocate for numerically quantifiable goals and bounded practice sessions where you put the guitar down and do something else after you’ve practiced what’s on your list. Also, clear things you can work on in 5-15m of downtime. Small chunks of time consistently applied are extremely effective for some things. Habits and routines too, although these should not become stereotyped and inflexible.
This all helps with the mental health and helps avoid burn out. It’s a long term journey.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 03-23-2024 at 06:45 AM.
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I also remember Dirk (Dutchbopper) saying that he didn’t start jazz until late (did he say 40??) and he turned out to be a very capable player. He’s not a full time pro (who is?) but I believe he’s gigging.
Tbf if I could think of one place that can rival NYC for cutting edge world class jazz guitar it’s the Netherlands. It’s good when badass guitar is in the water so to speak.
But from his example, I would say it’s entirely possible, provided you focus on the right stuff (the MUSIC, not theory books or YouTube videos)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Actually that reminds me. A good friend of mine really only start playing jazz in his late thirties. He studied classical in college and was quite a good rock player when he started working on jazz. Did it all while teaching high school full time too.
He honestly could probably gig full time if he wanted. Could definitely gig and teach full time but he likes classroom teaching (and is very very good at it) so he still does that too.
He always said he was a bit jealous of me because I made the New York move when I was young and he didn’t have the option really until he was older and it didn’t make as much sense. But lo and behold, I moved back after ten years, we live fifteen miles from each other now, and he gigs ten times more than me and about half my gigs are subbing for him.
I don’t know. There are lots of paths to this stuff.
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If someone on the internet shuts you down you have no business on stage with a guitar. The sappy "mom says I sound good" pats on the back can do more harm than good f that's the only feedback you get. Sometimes you gotta toss a cymbal at someone for motivational effect. I spoke with him privately. He is less dreamy and more serious than his post would lead us to believe. He's got a few years to catch up on, but it's entirely doable if he maintains a high level of commitment. He knows what it will take. No serious person is going to let an internet jerk, or some local bandleading gatekeeper stop them. Someday if he's the next George Benson maybe he'll let me carry his amp and light his cigs for him. Originally Posted by starjasmine
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Worked for Cory Weeds Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Music School (performance degree) was a real accelerator for me at 26. Not necessarily for the pedagogy (but having a framework was a good thing), but for the exposure to many young great players from around the country, mentorship, being forced into playing situations, sessions, recording, visiting artists and producers (Lovano, McBride, Sco, Metheney, Larry Goldings, Snarky Puppy, Donny McCaslin, Steve Grossman, Ken Scott, Bob Ezrin, Vic Juris, Peter Bernstein). I would have never had that exposure without that environment. But post secondary is relatively cheap in Canada, compared to the US at least. Get as good as you can before going though, if you scrape in, you won't have as much fun.
There's many paths, and there isn't one way to do it. Good luck! Also, you are still young! Try not to compare yourself to others.
As for making a living playing music or just jazz guitar. That's another kettle of fish that many here have commented on. And maybe making a living playing music is not important to you. Or maybe you can make it work for your lifestyle. FWIW I stopped music full time (teaching, gigging, events) pre covid for various reasons so there's others more qualified to comment. I will say there's more of a market for certain musical skills than others (opera repetiteur vs jazz guitarist for example).
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I think that in most genres, not necessarily including jazz, there are so many “good” guitarists that an aspiring player should ask how he can be different.
I don’t think there’s a single linear path of excellence. I would take a more qualitative look and shoot for offering something distinctive.
(And I don’t doubt that Nashville has more “good guitarists” than Austin, but it definitely doesn’t have as much good music.)
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If I strip out the emotional/attitudinal content implied by "great" and "beast" in the OP's post, the core question would be, Is 26 too late to start the process of becoming a competent (that is, good enough to play in public) jazz guitarist? And most of us seem to hear in that a second, implied question: How might I go about accomplishing that?
For me, the primary challenge in offering answers* is that, aside from the information about guitaristic experience ("played guitar from 16-18"), I have no idea of level of the OP's technical competence, style of playing, or music-listening habits. What kind of jazz is he thinking of playing at those bar gigs? For that matter, how familiar is he with the realities of public performance in general?
That said, there are clearly at least two sets of issues involved: 1) Acquiring the technical skills (guitaristic and musicological), and 2) making music in a setting that encourages exploration of the possibilities of the tradition--that lets one discover what matters, personally and musically. That's the doing I referred to above. If the doing isn't its own reward (or at least the primary motivator), I'm not sure that any amount of schooling, woodshedding, and networking is going to matter.
My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future’s sakes.
--Robert Frost, "Two Tramps in Mud Time"
* Also aside from the giant challenge of not being a jazz guitarist in the sense used by members of this forum.
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Ahh, but at what age did he start playing musical instruments? Idem for Mancuso who "was already quite good at 16"; how long had he been playing by then? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I used to be friends with a then up-and-coming singer and the little group she gave concerts with in a music café in Paris. "French-Latin chansons" I'd call it, so a mixture of traditional French music with lots of eastern-Europe, klezmer'y influences and quite a bit of jazz thrown in. The doublebass player was a jazzer, the piano/accordeon player was classically schooled. Very good player, but he mostly played from scores, including of the solos he had prepared.
I think very few people in the audience realised that he wasn't "properly improvising". I certainly found nothing wrong with it; his playing was enjoyable and their concerts not so frequent that I got to think "but that sounds a lot like how he played it last time". Plus, well, if you're into buying records of performers you appreciate, you get used to hearing the same solo performed exactly the same way time and time again.
No idea to what extent you can get away with that approach in the (US) jazz scene but I'd hope it's not enough of a showstopper to make it unusable as a stepping stone.
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The OP could let us know how he quantifies "great" and "beast." Since his goal in the real world is to play in bars, which may need a skill set many levels below what many of us would consider "great" guitar playing, it would help if he listened to some of the playing on this forum and have him let us know if any of it sounds "great" to him. Also, does he want to be a solo jazz guitarist in bars, or play guitar in a small jazz combo? Different skill sets, to a degree. Originally Posted by DawgBone
I have seen videos posted by members of this forum that strike me as great, yet I have no idea if the player is actually a professional musician, or if he or she actually makes any money at all playing guitar. If I could play like Christian, or Mr. Beaumont, or Dutchbopper, or NeverShould, or Jimmy Blue Note, or any of 15 or 20 other members of this forum, I would feel truly accomplished, considering where I started. Further, if I had those skills, I could go out and get a gig, here in NYC, next week.
If the OP wants to know how long it will take him to play like George Benson, I would say that it's an unrealistic goal. On the other hand, Pat Martino learned how to play jazz guitar from scratch at the age of 35 after a seizure required surgeons to remove part of his brain. He said he had absolutely no memory of how to play, nor did his fingers know what to do. He did have one advantage, to my mind: he had lots of recorded evidence that he had the ability to do it. I think doubts about our abilities are possibly the greatest impediments to learning an instrument.
It strikes me (a one-time member of Local 802 of the NY AFM who has almost always lived in NYC) that if it had not been for the internet, I would never have heard of Tim Lerch, who pretty much stays around the Pacific Northwest. I would certainly never have heard of Ted Greene down in the bay area. I would probably never have heard of Bruce Forman. (For many years I lived around the corner from Howard Alden, so I knew who he was) But I consider all of those guitarists "great" even if they are not household names.
In Manhattan (especially on the Upper West Side where I live) you can find 10 world-class jazz pianists – who can also sightread anything you put in front of them – within 5 blocks of where you are. It is easy to put together a crazy-good backup band of people you never met before. There aren't quite as many fabulous jazz guitarists, but Juilliard, NYU, Columbia, and other NYC colleges and universities are spitting out at least a dozen or so every year. And very few of those might be considered "great", but what I've seen, my life would be full of absolute joy to have the amount of guitar mastery that they have.Last edited by Ukena; 03-23-2024 at 04:34 PM.
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If only that were true, you just move to wanting something more. Originally Posted by Ukena
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I feel sorry for you if that is how you live your life. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Life doesn't stop when you achieve goals that give you joy. I have done so in the past; I still have that joy, and hope to achieve more in the future.
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Is he going to return to his thread? We have a bone to pick with him about his arrogant proposal to go from beginner to legend in a few years. :P Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Originally Posted by Ukena
I think what Alan meant is if we could all play like a jazz guitar legend, we would still be dissatisfied, and striving for more. That is the nature of guitar. Some might say "wow that is a legend" but I suspect the legend is his own worst critic, and is in a state of constantly striving for better. Isn't that the case with everyone who plays an instrument? As I said earlier in the thread, sometimes I think "hey that was great" about some aspect of playing but it is a fleeting thing, a constant pursuit. The thrill of the chase.
I talked to the OP some more and advised him to create a thread asking about practice regimens for jazz guitar. He needs good guidance. As I am not a jazz guy I recommended he ask, because there is a wealth of knowledge here. The only advice I could really provide him is not to spurn the blues. I was watching that Benson interview with Beato and he mentioned Jack McDuff being on his case to be playing some blues. A lot of guys miss that, especially younger guys and it's a big disservice to not include that in his playing. I can't give him a lot more advice than that with regard to guitar. I think the guy is motivated to do something good for himself so hopefully you guys can provide that quality guidance for him.
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