Too late to be a great jazz guitarist starting at 26 years old?

[pamosmusic]

I’m trying to remember the Branford Marsalis thing … Jazz is …

1. blues
2. swing
3. Improvisation

I don’t remember if that’s the proper order, but I do remember improvisation was last.

or maybe it was wynton?

or maybe I should just not post this.

ah well.

[Peter C]

So if most people here say yes, too late, would you then put this crazy idea aside and focus on achievable goal like plumbing or accountant career?

Don't knock it; Philip Glass worked as a plumber
Day jobs are doable if you have an understanding S.O. and few other commitments. However, it's true that being a parent is a whole different thing, and you can end up spending <5% of your time on the instrument, if you're lucky. I still can't fathom how Wes did it.

[AllanAllen]

Okay, let's go back then. If you're parroting what Herb Ellis says, why would you be so authoritative about blues and jazz? Why wouldn't you say, "According to Herb Ellis..." instead of making definitive statements?

Because I can?

[Ukena]

Because I can?

So true. The internet lets arrogance run free. You win. There is no reason to engage with you further.

[DawgBone]

from the saxophone thread "Not sure I can respect a jazzer who can't also stick a 2 or 3 hour blues gig."

does that work the other way around too?

Jazz is more harmonically complex than blues and there is quite a wide range of material and style there comparatively. I can do ok on a jazzy blues, not really my forte but I can do it. But if you want me to do Cherokee I would pass on the offer. I do not have a lot of ii-V-I stuff on my set list either, because it isn't my feeling. I do not even care much for straight ahead minor blues. I only play what I like. A good part of my set list isn't straight basic blues jam I-IV-V either so the "blues is easy" sub guitarist is in for a long night if he didn't do his homework. I like to bend, reverse bend, slide, hammer, pull off and slur etc pretty much every note and make them sound soulful and feeling packed, that was my playing goal. I play with a fingerpick and thumbpick like a banjo player, not exactly jazz either.

So yeah if you're a jazzer who can't stick a three chord 12/8 slow blues passably yeah, you pretty much suck, no offense. Everyone in the podunk jazz program I knew fit that mold. Do I expect you to sound like a pro blues player doing it? No, but I would not expect you to fumble through it the way I would fumble through an AABA 32 bar when we are talking 3 chords. I am not sure if my brain lacks the advancement to ever grasp jazz on a guitar, or i just didn't do the work because I lacked interest in actually playing it. I quit everything that didn't interest me because I can't maintain the focus needed. Playing blues interests me. My guitar teacher didn't like or respect me because once I learnt blues, I discarded most of the rest of his lesson work to focus on that. If I don't detect a soulful feeling it doesn't hold my interest. Major scales. Melodic minor. Sweep picking. Whatever. Not interested. And just for the record since we are talking and someone might read this: screw Cissy Strut!

I am here because I enjoy listening to jazz and jazz guitar because it provides me with new ideas to try within the blues music framewok since all the great jazzers could stick a basic blues well, and so they have good ideas to offer me as a listener, even if I never play jazz.

As for our OP I think he is busy practicing. He mentioned to me having worked on Malmsteen licks in high school so I hope he goes for broke on his jazz stuff. He can do it if he really wants it.

[wintermoon]

Assuming you're being serious and not sarcastic.

Being good at one thing doesn't mean you're inherently good at another. The blues is one form of many that jazz musicians should have a grasp on, that doesn't mean you have Freddie King licks for days of the feel of BB King, but you should be able to easily navigate a blues form and play passable solos over it.

A jazz guy being more well rounded than a blues guy is an amateur way of thinking. Things are more complex than that.

I would suggest you watch the Herb Ellis instructional video on youtube, I'm basically parroting what he says.

You know what they say about people that assume, right? No offense, I just find it amusing that someone that's been playing jazz for 5 minutes and has maybe a dozen gigs under his belt is so authoritative on the subject.
But carry on.....

[AllanAllen]

And I find it incredibly frustrating that we can’t even agree on foundational things. Surely if Herb Ellis, Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Count Basie, Oscar Peterson, George Benson, Jack McDuff, Kenny Burrell, Jimmy Smith and endless others emphasize blues. It must mean something?

But no, I’m too green to notice that.

[wintermoon]

And I find it incredibly frustrating that we can’t even agree on foundational things. Surely if Herb Ellis, Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Count Basie, Oscar Peterson, George Benson, Jack McDuff, Kenny Burrell, Jimmy Smith and endless others emphasize blues. It must mean something?

But no, I’m too green to notice that.

No one refuted that my man

[AllanAllen]

No one refuted that my man

Well, then I guess I’m confused about what the conversation is. Lol.

[DawgBone]

You know what they say about people that assume, right? No offense, I just find it amusing that someone that's been playing jazz for 5 minutes and has maybe a dozen gigs under his belt is so authoritative on the subject.
But carry on.....

He essentially quoted authorities on the subject so how many gigs he has done is irrelevant.

[wintermoon]

I just find it nice that Dawgbone apparently has a little humility which practically no one here thought possible.

[pauln]

...but I was already thinking about how I couldn’t do that on a major tune and needed to work on major quartals.

I'm reading that to mean application of quartal chords in major tunes. If you stack fourths and call the first one the root, you won't encounter a major third to the root until the second note entering the 4rth octave of the stack. If you look at the stack as chords with 3 or 4 notes, attend to the voicing (top note) and the implied root (of the whole chord) to find applications (including major tunes).

Easier to hear than explain... here's an example

Tune in G major: C'est si bon
The "B" part in the video starts @00:45
I play it similar to BL

x7778x (lead out sub of Gmaj) (quartal)
x8889x (Bb) (quartal)

x10101011x (Eb) (quartal)
x8889x (F) (quartal)
x6876x (Eb) (maj9)
6x654x (Bb) (11)

x10101011x (Eb) (quartal)
x6876x (Eb) (maj9)

xx5775x (A) (13sus4)
xx5675x (A) (13)
xx10121210 or x3553x (D) (13sus4)
xx10111210 or x3453x (D) (13)

Notice that quartal chords can play different roles (root contexts) and sound great in proximity to chords of the maj9, 11, 13, and 13sus4 family.

[DawgBone]

I just find it nice that Dawgbone apparently has a little humility which practically no one here thought possible.

Humility? You're acting kinda like a gatekeeper, trashing Allan for not having done enough gigs to comment. My inner bluesman detects a level of dissatisfaction in your life outside jazz guitar forum right now. Regardless, it would be a good time to say "hey, Allan, I am sorry I should not have said that".

[wintermoon]

Humility? You're acting kinda like a gatekeeper, trashing Allan for not having done enough gigs to comment. My inner bluesman detects a level of dissatisfaction in your life outside jazz guitar forum right now. Regardless, it would be a good time to say "hey, Allan, I am sorry I should not have said that".

Like you I don't do what anyone tells me to do no matter what your bluesdar tells you, genius.
My initial post was directed at you, he just happened to jump in.
I ain't no gatekeeper, I just abhor know it alls, y'know?

[DawgBone]

Like you I don't do what anyone tells me to do no matter what your bluesdar tells you, genius.
My initial post was directed at you, he just happened to jump in.
I ain't no gatekeeper, I just abhor know it alls, y'know?

He wasn't wrong. No need for your cheap shots my man. Have a better day tomorrow.

[wintermoon]

He wasn't wrong. No need for your cheap shots my man. Have a better day tomorrow.

Will do, stay humble DB, it's a good look for a change....

[Phil59]

Not that DawgBone needs or wants a defender. But I think he has been right on the money throughout this thread. First, giving the OP some hard facts of music life. And apparently he actually has communicated with the OP. Plus, telling the OP to focus on the blues. And probably other insights I have missed.

Second point, the OP talked about being "great." Anybody should know that that's not happening when you get serious at age 26. Of course, the words great, awesome, perfect, etc. don't mean much any more. Overused to compliment the most minor achievements. So maybe he really meant it not as being as good as Wes Montgomery but that just playing in a bar occasionally would qualify as great. Then he probably will be he great if he practices and plays out even if he doesn't move to NYC.

Third, where is the OP? Not heard from despite a lot of excellent insights here, both on his behalf and for various forms of self-expression.

[AllanAllen]

For what it’s worth, I don’t think I need an apology. It’s worth pointing out that I’m still green every once in a while. After all, I’m only halfway through the first ten years.

[AllanAllen]

I'm reading that to mean application of quartal chords in major tunes. If you stack fourths and call the first one the root, you won't encounter a major third to the root until the second note entering the 4rth octave of the stack. If you look at the stack as chords with 3 or 4 notes, attend to the voicing (top note) and the implied root (of the whole chord) to find applications (including major tunes).

Easier to hear than explain... here's an example

Tune in G major: C'est si bon
The "B" part in the video starts @00:45
I play it similar to BL

x7778x (lead out sub of Gmaj) (quartal)
x8889x (Bb) (quartal)

x10101011x (Eb) (quartal)
x8889x (F) (quartal)
x6876x (Eb) (maj9)
6x654x (Bb) (11)

x10101011x (Eb) (quartal)
x6876x (Eb) (maj9)

xx5775x (A) (13sus4)
xx5675x (A) (13)
xx10121210 or x3553x (D) (13sus4)
xx10111210 or x3453x (D) (13)

Notice that quartal chords can play different roles (root contexts) and sound great in proximity to chords of the maj9, 11, 13, and 13sus4 family.

Thank you so much for this.

[mr. beaumont]

For what it’s worth, I don’t think I need an apology. It’s worth pointing out that I’m still green every once in a while. After all, I’m only halfway through the first ten years.

Green maybe, but right about the blues.

Green about the Blues. There's a fucking album title!

[pamosmusic]

Green maybe, but right about the blues.

Green about the Blues. There's a fucking album title!

Green but not Blue?

Blue but not Green?

It’s in there somewhere.

And VERY surprised Grant didn’t get there first.

[mr. beaumont]

Green but not Blue?

Blue but not Green?

It’s in there somewhere.

And VERY surprised Grant didn’t get there first.

Green in Blues.

That's Grant's album. Shame he didn't get to do that one.

[wintermoon]

Green in Blues.

That's Grant's album. Shame he didn't get to do that one.

Probably my favorite of his though it was originally drummer Dave Bailey's session

[princeplanet]

kind of green ?.... (sorry)

[mr. beaumont]

Probably my favorite of his though it was originally drummer Dave Bailey's session

Well son of a gun! Didn't know this one...what was the original session called?