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Took maybe 15 seconds to see this:
Originally Posted by pauln
Pfizer’s CEO has had Covid-19 vaccine - Full Fact
Bourla was vaccinated.
So was Sahin.
reuters.com
I think we have some responsibility to check facts before posting.
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01-19-2024 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pauln
all of the above are actually vaccinated. so what now? will you follow your own advice and "trust the example set by those who would know most all about it."?
reuters.com
The 35-second-long clip shows an interview in which Ghebreyesus, who is Ethiopian, addressed how he waited until May 2021 to get his first COVID-19 vaccine, to align with and wait for the vaccination campaigns in Africa and other low-income countries.The clip, however, is being shared by social media users in August 2022 to falsely claim Tedros has not been vaccinated against COVID-19.
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I made no claims about when the reports were made; only a suggestion that their possible influence on ordinary people at that time might have not been about "the science" so much as a diminished trust in "those in the know" .
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nice try. you were trying to push the narrative that ordinary folks should not trust the vax program since "those in the know" wouldnt take it either. but that is a lie. now what? Originally Posted by pauln
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Several US members seem to distrust the US government on this. Do you also believe the other governments around the world, such as Russia, China and most of those in Europe, who implemented similar lockdown, masking and vaccination policies, were in cahoots with the US government? Wouldn't this be an incredible and unheralded example of global government cooperation?
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CDC: COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.
The Lancet: An increased risk of pericarditis has also been shown after the second dose of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines, though less common than myocarditis and more evenly distributed among different sex and age groups.
Suggestion: do the research/legwork and find out what works for you and avoid (those) making blanket statements in a non-specialized forum?
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The vaccines were developed in the US with taxpayer money. The vaccine companies got total immunity to any liability. They enjoyed record profits,none of which were shared with the fianincal developer. Health care workers who worked thru the development time most of which got covid and had natural immunity were fired, if they decided not to get the vaccine. It really has to make you wonder.....
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Would rather be the reverse because IIRC US measures were taken well after the ones in China and (later) the EU Originally Posted by CliffR
Erm, some vaccines were developed by (mostly) US companies. That does include the 2 main mRNA-based vaccines but they weren't the first to be available, and I doubt that the development was a purely US-based effort rather than a concerted multi-national effort with "global" funding! Originally Posted by skiboyny
There was a race against time to get vaccines so some shortcuts were unavoidable, but IIRC even the mRNA technique had already been tested.
It's true that none of the currently available vaccines (that all[?] use some form of immunisation against the SPIKE protein) provide the same level of protection as some vaccines do against other diseases, regardless of the mutation aspect of the virus. You'd expect/hope that research continues to develop a better vaccine but it seems that's no longer a priority given how the virus itself has been adapting so well to its new host (putting most patients at a lot less risk).
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Are women and children allowed to die like women and children, or are they also required to die like men?
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WRONG! I personally would not want my government using coercion for any reason. We all looked around, we all listened and made our choices. (those that had a choice) If the disease were 100% lethal I'm pretty sure that would be noticable. In that case, many might make a different choice. I want to be able to make my own choices when it concerns me period. I don't mind a recommendation even a strong recommendation. Ultimately I want it in my hands. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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The impact of COVID , and the therapeutic vaccine will be plagued with controversy forever. You have the science followers , and then the vaccine informed group( via VARES and numerous peer reviews studies about risk and effectiveness).
Adverse vaccine reactions and serious illness were suppressed, and labeled mis information, perhaps to not bring about a public panic, and I can understand that …..to a point.
There is data on both sides to support one’s position - and each group vehemently discards opposing viewpoints. As for COVID death total- Hospital practitioners we’re given incentives to classify nebulous deaths as COVID related - as confirmed through many of my Doctor and nurse friends. So, we will never really know the true death count - but it’s likely significant
We had a US media coerced by our Government to promote the safety and effectiveness of this vaccine, but the narrative diminished over time from “ take it and you won’t get COVID”, to take it and it will help to reduce the effects of COVID. The effectiveness is nearly impossible to quantify- but perhaps a placebo ( arguably) is better than nothing when in fear/ doubt. Staying calm has its own benefits too.
When autocratic doctrines aren’t supported by all the facts and not totally transparent- we have mistrust- which results in strong opposing viewpoints. Just tell the truth - but we know that’s impossible.
Many of those NY medical practitioners / service providers who refused the vaccine, have been hired back - with full back pay, but this has been kept very quiet on our Democrat ( influenced) media sites.
Bottom line - educate yourself and draw your own conclusions about risks and benefits based on your age and health - then act according.
COVID is real and my heart goes out to those who suffered and passed. I’ve known people who’ve had long COVID and it’s debilitating. I contracted COVID last year , and didn’t know I had it. Had a bad headache for four days- then it passed. I feel grateful and attribute my exercise and supplement routine (12 per day) for making it through successfully. Im 65 and have no underline health conditions- except I can no longer play 13’s on my guitars.
Try to stay healthy and keep your D3 levels more towards the middle or upper range of the medical recommendations. There is profound data which correlate low D3 to more serious affects of COVID, and other illnesses. Science and big Pharma followers will likely dispute this- but it’s true.
If your sick with COVID , or other virus’s - perhaps it’s a good practice to wear a mask to protect others from your viral load. It’s just common courtesy - and the World could use an infusion of civility for sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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FWIW, about the Pfizer CEO: Originally Posted by pauln
The video features a CNBC interview with Bourla in which he is asked when he will get vaccinated. In response, he says that he is 59 years old, in good health and is not working on the front lines, so he "is not recommended to get vaccinated now."
"As soon as I can, I will. The only sensitivity here, Meg, is that I don’t want to have an example that I’m cutting the line," Bourla says in the video, which also includes a clip of Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.
Your browser is not supported | usatoday.com
About Sahin:
Answering a question about why he was not yet vaccinated, Sahin said that he was “legally not allowed to take the vaccine at the moment” and later explained that he was not in a priority group at that time to receive the vaccine.
Posts cite old interview to falsely claim BioNTech CEO isn’t vaccinated | AP News
And so on. Fact-checking takes about five minutes for each claim. I suppose a really thorough check would involve pursuing sources all the way back to original videos or news stories, but I've been doing academic and journalistic reseach for long enough to recognize misuse and misdirection pretty quickly. And as a member two vulnerable groups (old and mildly immunocompromised), I started following the Covid stories before the shutdowns.
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Seems like a significant portion of the people who complain about their freedom being curtailed when they are asked to wear a mask or get vaccinated cry foul when someone who doesn't agree with their position tries to exercise THEIR freedom. For example when a store owner decides not to let in people who won't wear a mask. Or an employer who decides that their employees need to be vaccinated. In my country, some of these people went as far as blockading bridges and border crossings and occupying the downtowns of cities for days or weeks in protest during the pandemic.
If you don't agree with wearing a mask or getting vaccinated - fine. You are "free" to shop somewhere else or get another job. You are not entitled to impose your decision on others.
Being "free" means accepting all the consequences of your choices, not just the ones that are of benefit to you.Last edited by swampguide; 01-19-2024 at 01:28 PM.
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Are they even allowed to die? Originally Posted by sgosnell
That's in reference to how in this country policy was dictated by medical doctors. Not conseilled, dictated. It's evident that for those people every death is one too many and has to be avoided no matter the cost (I'd say that here that includes considerations about quality of life). A counter-statement issued by someone (journalist?) from my own country, that I fully subscribe to was (in my words) that a zero-risk approach could not be accepted in politicians as that would mean the country couldn't go anywhere. (I said those would be my own words ... I only remember the gist.)
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Yes it makes so much sense to let your employer make your medical decisions for you. Originally Posted by swampguide
I can tell you about the many clubs that failed because they were so busy virtue signaling their concern for protecting their employees on social media that they ran their club into the ground because people don't want to drink liquor with a mask on. Lotta folded clubs around here. But no doubt you support live music. Please tell me all about it.
You guys are creating a world which you will certainly whine about when you finally get it your way.
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If you read my other comments, I have sympathies with your view, especially in an instance where there seems to have been flagrant govt. overreach. Originally Posted by skiboyny
BUT!... In a serious situation where the danger seems very real and obvious, you will not, and nor should you, have any choice. For example, in a war situation (like in WWII) where a curfew is expected to be followed by everybody so that any movement or lights etc will not attract enemy attention. Would you fall in line, or would you insist on your right to make your own choice to ignore the curfew?
I know, it's an extreme hypothetical, and quite different to Covid where the danger was no where near as imminent, but if it were the black plague, or a new outbreak of ebola or something, I see that as being no different to being at war. An outlier puts other people at risk, you'd be shot in the street by your own people. I suppose, though, that it'd be easier to convince people we are at war than it will be to convince people of another virus that we need to observe curfew for.
We can blame all the global health "experts" for this, their overreaction, and half truths resulted in mistrust from the people. More honesty and less ineptness might have led to a more appropriate response, commensurate to the threat. Remember how Sweden responded - they had the last laugh...
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Perfect example. The employer is not making a medical decision *for you*. They are making a decision for themselves - which you don't happen to agree with and now you're crying foul. Originally Posted by DawgBone
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RJVB: I'm not sure which country your remark about "policy . . . dictated by medical doctors" refers to. My understanding of the US public-health system is that most of the enforcement part of it operates on a local level and that policies, regulations, and standards come from state and federal bodies. The everyday must/must-not parts generally have to do with things like food handling and required vaccinations. (I remember mandatory smallpox vaccinations for school attendance and the yellow vaccination card one carried for international travel.)
As a practical matter, the people in charge of analysis, research, and policy-making are medical doctors--just as in a hospital the department heads are doctors, not bureaucrats. Not that organizations run by doctors are foolproof--just look at Florida, where Governor DeSantis appointed as state Surgeon General a crank supporter of a range of crap-science ideas about Covid. But in a non-pathological-political environment, medical professionals shape policy that trickles down to local agencies that are run by non-medical personnel.
Not that this is typical, but in one Michigan county, a far-right faction got control of the Board of Commissioners and appointed as public health officer a guy who is
a health and safety manager at a Grand Rapids-area HVAC company. He has no previous work history in public health and said he'd recommend kits for individuals infected by COVID-19 with vitamins, ivermectin and neti pots, but not masking or social distancing.
“No social distancing would be suggested since it has no basis in any proven science,” Kelly said during an event in 2022. “No mass testing for asymptomatic individuals; asymptomatic individuals do not transmit disease.” [my italics] Your browser is not supported | hollandsentinel.com
As for advocating a "zero-risk approach," I'd like to see the evidence that any public-health official did so. In more than three years of paying attention, I don't recall seeing any such statement. What I do recall is a lot of people not understanding risk management, mitigation, and epidemiology
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They are an employee, not a slave. This is why the police, fire dept, and military are having a hard time keeping things fully staffed. When you need those services you might rethink your position. Originally Posted by swampguide
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Correct, an employee is not a slave. They are free to find another workplace where they are not required to be vaccinated. Surely if opposition to vaccination is significant, there must be many other employers willing to hire those who choose not to be vaccinated. Originally Posted by DawgBone
As for police, fire dept, and military staffing difficulties because of vaccination requirements, can you provide anything to back that up? Where I live a major impediment to police staffing is the current educational requirements (a university degree), which some agencies are now removing. And now that the pandemic is largely over, I wouldn't be suprised if vaccination requirements have been relaxed.
Also, I did go out to clubs and restaurants during the pandemic with a mask. Sometimes being brave and not being a "coward" means putting other's interests ahead of your own. Perhaps some clubs went out of business because people like you refused to attend their clubs wearing a mask.Last edited by swampguide; 01-19-2024 at 03:41 PM.
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There was a pandemic. Airborne transmission by symptom-free individuals. A million deaths in the U.S.
So, masks and vaccines were encouraged and iirc required in some instances. Protect the individual and protect others.
A child must have a number of vaccinations to attend school in Florida. DeSantis didn't attempt to change that.
In fact, I don't recall hearing complaints about that from the anti-vaxxers.
The evidence is in that masking works and the papers are available on the Internet, including consensus statements. It is certainly true that the scientific consensus took some time to emerge. That's the way science works.
Complaints about masking strike me as having the same validity and compassion as refusing to stop at red lights or honor a blackout in an aerial bombardment during a war, as someone else stated. Why should one person be supported in putting others at risk?
All that said, nobody got arrested for not masking or not getting a vaccine, afaik.
Early on Trump didn't want to mask. He stated that he didn't think it was a good look, or words to that effect. MAGA picked it up. You end up with this: Political party affiliation linked to excess COVID deaths | CIDRAP
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The implicit suggestion in your comment is that Sweden let everybody do whatver they wanted - but nothing could be further from the truth. Sweden recommended pretty much everything we did in the US, except that they kept their schools and businesses open. The difference is that over 90% of Swedes complied with it all. Here's a factual summary written and published by a team of Swedish doctors and public health experts: Originally Posted by princeplanet
"During the COVID-19 pandemic, Sweden was among the few countries that did not enforce strict lockdown measures. Instead, the country relied on its citizens' voluntary behavioral changes, considering them to be more sustainable. This approach involved enforcing physical distancing, encouraging working from home, limiting social gatherings and travel, prohibiting most public events, and so on. Initially, masks were mandatory only in healthcare and older adult care settings, but later they were also recommended for crowded public transport. Kindergartens, primary schools, and secondary schools remained open throughout the pandemic, which was a unique policy. A large majority (>90%) of the Swedish population approved, endorsed, and complied with the Swedish policies, according to repeated public polls conducted during the pandemic by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency ."
If we Americans had been willing to comply with the same recommendations at the same 90+% level, we could have done exactly what Sweden did. But Americans are largely fueled by crazy forces like testosterone-driven insecurity, groundless paranoia, an endless need to blame others for our own misfortunes, and a population who are largely angry about everything. If you look at the outcomes for countries in which cooperation with public health recommendations was abysmal, you'll find equally abysmal medical, social, and economic outcomes.
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Yes I did read your previous line and thought it very strange that the next comment was that one. I did qualify my thought by saying if the danger was imminent people would most likely rethink their position. I made my choices, you made yours, and we are both here to talk about it. No right, no wrong just different perspectives... I can't see debating the what ifs. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by RLetson
Imagine an airliner crossing the ocean and the stewardess informs the pilot that all the passengers who ate the fish are passing out. The pilot and copilot were served after the passengers, both ate the fish but haven't passed out yet. The stewardess reports that there are not enough pills in the medical kit for everyone.
Are the pilot and copilot going to get all noble and say distribute them to as many passengers as possible, we'll forgo the pills and see what happens?
No, for the same reason that when the oxygen masks drop down the instruction is to fit one's own mask first before doing so for childen, elderly, etc. Someone has to remain in conscious operating condition for the sake of everyone else.
"I don't want to be cutting ahead in line" is absurd if one is the head of the company or the creator of the treatment, or the administrative head of world health, etc... or the pilot/copilot.
I cannot accept that reasoning from intellegent people in critical positions that require travel and meetings, conferences, constant exposure.
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It's not absurd at all. It's honor and it's true bravery. Lt Commander John McCain was offered release when he was a POW in Vietnam, but he refused to violate the military code of conduct and leave before his fellow POWs who'd been in captivity longer than he was. There was a time when such loyalty, sentiment, and bravery was commonplace among Americans. Sadly, it seems to have gone the way of good cheap beer. The closest many Americans and our leaders come to that level of bravery today is risking ridicule by wearing a mask in public while our elected officials (including some who dodged the draft) mock soldiers who were captured, gold star families, and the disabled. Originally Posted by pauln
“Shearing style”
Today, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions