Jazz as a medium of self expression

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Originally Posted by destinytot
To improve my tai chi form, I spent countless hours watching cats. Then I went and bought some kitty litter.
are you sure you're not Cosmic Gumbo?
destinytot likes this.

sorry guys ,but I don't understand your Private jokes?
Never heard Cosmic Gumbo playing something on this site?
HB

[jordanklemons]

Jordan's comment may be long, but - like its central anecdote - it's powerful. On one level, it's also courageous. So thank you.

It's written for "other guitar players out there that are probably earlier in their developmental stages and still trying to decide the right path for themselves, and may be following this thread wondering which approach they 'should' take."

To me, it reads like 'Advice for the Young'. (Without wishing to condescend, my only Advice to the Young would be this: 'if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him'.)

On a prosaic level, I imagine that more than a few here are separated from the many by opportunity, if not by means. Personally, I freely admit to watching wistfully through the windows of Berklee Valencia on my way home from work.

But here are the fees for 2015-2016. I wouldn't dream of spending that kind of money on even my most cherished dream. Obscene - more so than the hijinx, hell-raising and debauchery that would probably occur were I to be admitted on campus:

DT...thank you man.

One of the reasons I came on this forum (besides simply connecting with others and learning new ideas and approaches) was because I recognize how challenging/impossible it is for most guitar players to get the opportunities I was able to work myself into. Even those who are able to get through the audition process still have to find a way to make the realities and cost of living in NYC and the tuition work for them. And I know first hand that it's not easy. I had to live with my folks for a couple of years to save up, and sell most of my belongings...and when I got to NY, I had to work and teach. And it's still a huge hustle.

But one of my driving passions in life is to share the things I learned there. Be it here or on my website or in private lessons. Wherever.

The kill the buddha is an idea I've come across and heard in spiritual circles and musical circles for years. It's a wonderful teaching. But often times the emphasis and focus is on the idea of killing him. We often overlook the other half of the sentence. IF YOU MEET HIM ON THE ROAD. Which means (A) you gotta get on the road and (B) you gotta get walking! haha...and the implication being that you will then continue walking after you kill him. To me killing him is not a starting point or an ending point. It's a middle point. 1st, get on the path and start working. Then you MIGHT encounter him. If you do, kill him. 3rd...get back to the work you were doing before you met him.

[jordanklemons]

Great post Jordan.

Thank you JP. Glad you enjoyed it.

[Stevebol]

stevebol - I'm interested in your r&b extravaganza! I also agree that for the most part jazz musicians suck at playing rock, funk, or groove oriented pop. Not always of course, but as a rule. I used to be pretty good at it. In my younger days I played in nothing but funk and original rock bands. I tried but I was never really good at it. If I had had more of a background in Top 40, something I turned my nose up at, I would have been a lot better. But even then I wasn't interested in copying. And I was too good to fire, so I must've been a real pain to a lot of guys. But I was pretty good at funk. I could groove and come up with all those little arpeggiated lines. My solos were kind of a cross between McLaughlin and Carlton, I think. Looking back on it I was a little like Robben Ford later, not nearly as tasty.

But I still get calls to do session work for funky stuff. But sometimes I think that's just because I'm black. LOL.

Start with drum tracks. Fans of old-school R&B want to hear catchy parts but they also want improv. Rearranging is good too but that's more time consuming.
I'm talking about dance music for clubs. Not originals but you can always do some. In my experience doing urban Top 40 wasn't like doing the regular Top 40 or rock. It was different in term of improv, working the crowd and rearranging. One girl group I was with for a short time did some acapella versions of old 60's rock. They were real crowd pleasers and I liked it quite a bit. That was an easy gig. Almost too easy. I just played rhythm and they had a show.
In 2015 no one would care about your approach to soloing. As for rhythm- I'd say do it like the record sometimes and other times don't. Mix it up.
I'm waiting on a Boss Dr 880 drum machine to arrive. Guess I'm sort of a digital-phobe but drum machines aren't so bad. I'll get going on it and see where it leads. learning guitar and bass parts is easy most of the time.

[Stevebol]

stevebol - I'm interested in your r&b extravaganza! I also agree that for the most part jazz musicians suck at playing rock, funk, or groove oriented pop. Not always of course, but as a rule. I used to be pretty good at it. In my younger days I played in nothing but funk and original rock bands. I tried but I was never really good at it. If I had had more of a background in Top 40, something I turned my nose up at, I would have been a lot better. But even then I wasn't interested in copying. And I was too good to fire, so I must've been a real pain to a lot of guys. But I was pretty good at funk. I could groove and come up with all those little arpeggiated lines. My solos were kind of a cross between McLaughlin and Carlton, I think. Looking back on it I was a little like Robben Ford later, not nearly as tasty.

But I still get calls to do session work for funky stuff. But sometimes I think that's just because I'm black. LOL.

Why don't you start a project? Fans know what 'old-school' and 'R&B' imply. Basically James Brown to TLC in my book. I'd skip JB even though he was the greatest. I'd skip Motown. Everyone does that. Skip P-Funkadelic too. Sly, EWF if you can pull it off, Rick James, Prince, Janet, TLC. Cameo is my favorite. Mix it up with 1 and 2 hit wonders. You don't need that many songs.

[destinytot]

Originally Posted by destinytot
To improve my tai chi form, I spent countless hours watching cats. Then I went and bought some kitty litter.
are you sure you're not Cosmic Gumbo?
destinytot likes this.

sorry guys ,but I don't understand your Private jokes?
Never heard Cosmic Gumbo playing something on this site?
HB

Excuse me, Hyppolyte. There was humour intended in my cat comment, but I also meant to infer that copying can lead to absurdity if we do so without connaissance de cause.

[mrcee]

Why don't you start a project? Fans know what 'old-school' and 'R&B' imply. Basically James Brown to TLC in my book. I'd skip JB even though he was the greatest. I'd skip Motown. Everyone does that. Skip P-Funkadelic too. Sly, EWF if you can pull it off, Rick James, Prince, Janet, TLC. Cameo is my favorite. Mix it up with 1 and 2 hit wonders. You don't need that many songs.

I've listened to some Cameo recently. It's been years if not decades. They're really good

What about Little Beaver? Sort of somewhere between Wes and Cornell Dupree. Not contemporary but a good jazzy, club funk style with some light improv. I think he's been sampled quite a bit and has a following among the jr. funkateers.
Jaco Pastorius is on some sides under a different name. Betty Wright (Clean Up Woman) sings back up. Maybe not the right thing for a larger more contemporary project. But definitely worth checking out for anyone into R&B, funk, club jazz.
The 70s So. Fla. Hialeah sound. I saw Betty Wright open for Marley at one of his last shows. It seems a little incongruous but she and Marley were both working with Alex Sadkin a Miami area based producer. Beav does a good cover somewhere of a Wes Montgomery tune.

easy on the echo, homie (that's goin' on the worst words thread)

[henryrobinett]

Why don't you start a project? Fans know what 'old-school' and 'R&B' imply. Basically James Brown to TLC in my book. I'd skip JB even though he was the greatest. I'd skip Motown. Everyone does that. Skip P-Funkadelic too. Sly, EWF if you can pull it off, Rick James, Prince, Janet, TLC. Cameo is my favorite. Mix it up with 1 and 2 hit wonders. You don't need that many songs.

I had thought about doing a project band type thing. Probably make some money. As long as I had a little solo space! LOL. Never been much of a P-Funk guy. My first band was a TOP wanna be clone band. I'd loe to do Sly and EWF. One of my good friends played in a later version of EWF. And one of my best friends has been the organist in TOP the last 10 years or so. He lives on my same street. Wed been talking about doing something for years. We used to be in a band. But you know how it is. He wants to play jazz with me and I want to play funk with him!

[destinytot]

I've listened to some Cameo recently. It's been years if not decades. They're really good

What about Little Beaver? Sort of somewhere between Wes and Cornell Dupree. Not contemporary but a good jazzy, club funk style with some light improv. I think he's been sampled quite a bit and has a following among the jr. funkateers.
Jaco Pastorius is on some sides under a different name. Betty Wright (Clean Up Woman) sings back up. Maybe not the right thing for a larger more contemporary project. But definitely worth checking out for anyone into R&B, funk, club jazz.
The 70s So. Fla. Hialeah sound. I saw Betty Wright open for Marley at one of his last shows. It seems a little incongruous but she and Marley were both working with Alex Sadkin a Miami area based producer. Beav does a good cover somewhere of a Wes Montgomery tune.

easy on the echo, homie (that's goin' on the worst words thread)

Now we're talking.

[Stevebol]

I had thought about doing a project band type thing. Probably make some money. As long as I had a little solo space! LOL. Never been much of a P-Funk guy. My first band was a TOP wanna be clone band. I'd loe to do Sly and EWF. One of my good friends played in a later version of EWF. And one of my best friends has been the organist in TOP the last 10 years or so. He lives on my same street. Wed been talking about doing something for years. We used to be in a band. But you know how it is. He wants to play jazz with me and I want to play funk with him!

Grooves were changing in the 80's. Simpler. More focus on the visual due to music videos. grooves make a comeback sometimes. Sly's Thank You became this;

I'd like to do some EWF but that could be a challenge with a 5-6 piece. Have to pick 70's and 90's stuff carefully. I don't want to do an '80's' project but a lot of it will be music from then. R&B fans from back then don't want to hear it like the record. Urban Top 40 wasn't like regular Top 40.
I'm a headbanger. That's all I know. I'm going to do headbanging old-school R&B.
I read a recent interview with Larry Blackmon. He said it's all about the fans. he hit the nail on the head with Word Up and Candy. Check out the bass player;

[destinytot]

Fearless self-expression.

[Stevebol]

Cameo came up in punk clubs. Lots of cross-dresser fans. They like to give a shout-out to their fans in some of their vids. I'd rather put on a dress and listen to Cameo than that Dr. Dre BS. Talk about overrated.

[Stevebol]

I had thought about doing a project band type thing. Probably make some money. As long as I had a little solo space! LOL. Never been much of a P-Funk guy. My first band was a TOP wanna be clone band. I'd loe to do Sly and EWF. One of my good friends played in a later version of EWF. And one of my best friends has been the organist in TOP the last 10 years or so. He lives on my same street. Wed been talking about doing something for years. We used to be in a band. But you know how it is. He wants to play jazz with me and I want to play funk with him!

My idea of 'R&B' is 80's because of my age group. The business is definitely changing right now. Women aren't digging the beats out there. I don't know what they're called, maybe trap beats but they're not very danceable. Kendrick Lamar is interesting but his basic grooves aren't. Hip hop cliche's are driving people away too.
'Old-school' R&B is so old now I think of it like pre-bop jazz. It's archaic dance music- pre hip hop. I like it. It's not like I have anything better to do.
What's the worst that can happen? I waste a lot of time programming drums. No big deal. I'll go be a folk singer or something.
Since so much 80's music started with drum machines in the studio I guess it's a mindset. A starting point.

[fumblefingers]

Berklee has the pedagogy down to a science though. You never know what a great player will really show you as a teacher - if they're even in town, or aren't relying on graduate assistants. 40K for a year ain't cheap but it's in line with other private schools, and cheaper than some. State school is expensive too, massively so, it's just that it's real costs are made invisible to the consumer via taxpayer subsidies.

[mrcee]

holy moly, 40k to study with a bunch of unknowns? who would pay that kind of money when you could study in amsterdam with the likes of jesse van ruller or van iterson for a mere 2k p/a? berklee really has turned into a ponzi scheme for trust fund kids...

I don't get it either. But then again I'm not going to spend 200 bucks to see Eric Clapton or Santana. Or 20 grand for
a guit box. Shoot, I'm not gonna spend US$20 for a special hamburger. But that's just me. To each their own.
Whatever pulls your tractor.

[Stevebol]

Berklee is good at churning out dance music that no one wants to dance to.
No thanks.

[fumblefingers]

Berklee is good at churning out dance music that no one wants to dance to.
No thanks.

cute.

do you have examples?

[dortmundjazzguitar]

cute.

do you have examples?

sure, if you can stomach this schlock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oaBodeF6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7mERyfchWE

and last but by no means least the trailer for the valencia department

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38OBp37Iyzo

[Jazzpunk]

What an odd thread. Started as Henry's public rant against an imaginary enemy, wavered on the edge of an interesting discussion about creativity and than swerved into a mashup of R&B love and academic conspiracy/jealousy. I had never heard of Little Beaver though so at least something good came out of it.

[mrcee]

What an odd thread. Started as Henry's public rant against an imaginary enemy, wavered on the edge of an interesting discussion about creativity and than swerved into a mashup of R&B love and academic conspiracy/jealousy. I had never heard of Little Beaver though so at least something good came out of it.

Yeah, Lil' Beav was my main man back in the day.

[fumblefingers]

sure, if you can stomach this schlock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oaBodeF6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7mERyfchWE

and last but by no means least the trailer for the valencia department

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38OBp37Iyzo

Here's your problem, if Berklee is to blame for punks, they're to praise/credit for studs. Do we need to list them?

you've backed yourself into a corner, argumentation wise.

[Patrick2]

sure, if you can stomach this schlock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oaBodeF6c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7mERyfchWE

and last but by no means least the trailer for the valencia department

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38OBp37Iyzo

I think your argument goes wrong for a couple of reasons. First, the "I am because you are" piece was brilliant and brilliantly done. Those kids were great. The song was good and all in all . . . it was music beautifully performed by talented kids.

Next, the hip hop stuff sucks!! But, mosty because guys like you and me hate it . . (well, I know I do anyway). But, just because that's what these kids were doing at the time, that doesn't mean that's all they're capable of doing. For all you and I know, those kids playing the horns are quite possibly . . maybe even quite probably capable of performing with the Boston Pops Symphony Orchestra.

These are just young kids, learning music at a very high level before they've even had a chance to go out and discover who or what they are, musically. Why would anyone frown upon that?

[destinytot]

I think your argument goes wrong for a couple of reasons. First, the "I am because you are" piece was brilliant and brilliantly done. Those kids were great. The song was good and all in all . . . it was music beautifully performed by talented kids.

Next, the hip hop stuff sucks!! But, mosty because guys like you and me hate it . . (well, I know I do anyway). But, just because that's what these kids were doing at the time, that doesn't mean that's all they're capable of doing. For all you and I know, those kids playing the horns are quite possibly . . maybe even quite probably capable of preforming with the Boston Pops Symphony Orchestra.

These are just young kids, learning music at a very high level before they've even had a chance to go out and discover who or what they are, musically. Why would anyone frown upon that?

Great post, Patrick2. I'm glad that discussion hasn't been stifled on this thread after all.

While I do believe that, along with student performance and achievement, the existence of these courses is cause for celebration, it's the culture engendered by their high cost which gives me pause.

Without wishing to fan the flames of jealousy, the fees are so prohibitive to locals as to foster the feeling that there's 'them and us'.

I find the title I Am Because You Are a tad ironic.

[destinytot]

Here's your problem, if Berklee is to blame for punks, they're to praise/credit for studs. Do we need to list them?

you've backed yourself into a corner, argumentation wise.

I don't think that's true. Those - er - 'studs' would prevail when and where it counts, regardless of which school they attended - or whether they attended at all.

[MarkRhodes]

The 'official video' surprised me and by that I mean, I can't help but think less of the school because of it. THIS is what they want to showcase? To borrow two hated words from another current thread, 'Whatever, dude.'