Jazz as a medium of self expression

[Patrick2]

....but why leave?...after all you have your opinions and so does destiny?

Unfortunately, I will have to agree with distintot.

what I'm currently interested in is the the catolonia separatist movement

Then you and destinytot should have a lot to talk about. :-)

[fumblefingers]

Why are student loans a problem? Having the money without the grades will not get you into an expensive university . . . certainly not Ivy League. Nor will it get you into Berklee

The people applying for student loans are vetted for credit worthyness. If kids want to go into hock for 10 years to get the education they want, then so be it. Adults go into hock for 35 years to get the home they want, don't they? The problem with student loans begins when liberals start talking about student loan forgiveness. Then, it once again becomes a burden on the tax payers. Once again a socialist philosophy with government (tax payers) bailing out banks. Bankers get fat . . . kids get a free education . . tax payers get screwed. And the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

i know, but there is a vicious cycle in play:

the more the government loans, the more the universities raise their prices,
the more the universities raise their prices, the more the government loans,
the more...

[AlsoRan]

Oh, this world of ours....

Truly, no good deed goes unpunished and for every action, there is a reaction.

[Stevebol]

Bailout fever!

[Patrick2]

i know, but there is a vicious cycle in play:

the more the government loans, the more the universities raise their prices,
the more the universities raise their prices, the more the government loans,
the more...

Market driven economy. The more people buy Hondas, the more the prices of Hondas go up. (aka, demand) The more people who want to buy Hondas, the more the banks need to finanace them. The more banks need to finanace . . (aka, demand) . . the more Bank of America interest rates go up. Then, Fidelity recognizes that Bank of America is gouging, Fedility lowers its interst rates to attract customers. It works!! Bank of America recognizes its losing customers to Fidelity's lower rates. BOA lowers its rates even lower than Fidelity's. Hundai recognizes Honda is pricing themselves into problems . . . offers damn good Hundai automobiles . . . attracts Honda buyers. etc., etc., etc..

Universities will continue to raise their tuition and other related costs, until people refuse to pay their prices. Then, they'll reel in their ambitious goals. The liberals in government will continue to lend . . . irresponsibly, until conservatives have the balls to put the brakes on it. That's true of university lending . . as well as housing lending. Banks are once again offering sub prime ARMs for home loans, with no income verification. This market will not remain at 17,000 too much longer. You'll see things change quite rapidly when the shit hits the fan.

[fumblefingers]

right.

a "cycle interrupt" is needed before it hits the fan. but like you said, that takes courage.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Bubbles burst. They don't gradually deflate. I don't see any kind of exit strategy for this one that's not really ugly. The market value for having a college degree (for employment) has obviously gone way down while prices continue to climb.

Pretty obvious where trends like that lead.

[jordanklemons]

I would agree Matt ^^

And there's a huge saturation of "degreed" musicians now. I'm getting ready to wrap up my masters in December...and will be joining a MASSIVE and growing fraternity of higher educated jazz musicians who are all vying for low paying, part time adjunct work.

I've thought about possible going for a PhD or a DMA, but frankly...the prospects for finding work with those degrees isn't much better these days.

That said...there's still tons of students going through all these programs, and many times more applying but not getting in. The bubble is not just in the cost....everything is bubbling...including the level of the faculty at universities. Studying jazz in NYC is like looking through my record collection. Aside from the dead guys...you walk through the hallway, or flip through the course/ensemble catalogue...and all the guys are there.

In a lot of ways, the reason the modern jazz scene is thriving and able to continue is because it's being funded by the jazz education system. Yes, there are DEFINITELY fat cats at the top sucking up the majority of the funds. But most of our favorite musicians that we all know and love are probably paying their rent and raising their families because of tuition the students are paying to study with them.

It's definitely interesting times.

[Stevebol]

Bubbles burst. They don't gradually deflate. I don't see any kind of exit strategy for this one that's not really ugly. The market value for having a college degree (for employment) has obviously gone way down while prices continue to climb.

Pretty obvious where trends like that lead.

What do you make of this? I don't usually follow this stuff;

Mark Cuban: Forgiving Student Loan Debt Would 'Bail Out the Universities' - Breitbart

[destinytot]

....but why leave?...after all you have your opinions and so does destiny?

Unfortunately, I will have to agree with distintot.

what I'm currently interested in is the the catolonia separatist movement

I enjoyed living and working in Catalonia in the '80s - I went there for the 'jazz' scene, surprise-surprise - but I prefer living in Valencia, which feels like a village with all the advantages of a (slow) city.

I do see a connection between separatism and this thread: externally imposed dogma.

In that regard, I see 'jazz' as a kind of convergence.

[destinytot]

What do you make of this? I don't usually follow this stuff;

Mark Cuban: Forgiving Student Loan Debt Would 'Bail Out the Universities' - Breitbart

Sounds like the human thing to do - as opposed to inhuman.

Lex iniusta non est lex and all that 'jazz'.

[fumblefingers]

Bubbles burst. They don't gradually deflate. I don't see any kind of exit strategy for this one that's not really ugly. The market value for having a college degree (for employment) has obviously gone way down while prices continue to climb.

Pretty obvious where trends like that lead.

bubbles are often created by policy, as is the case here. DC could curb loans and a correction would occur.

if we don't want high tuition prices then we have to reduce the demand for high tuition prices. how do we do that? by reducing the amount of OPM in the kids hands.

we (Uncle Sam) should also loan more money for degrees that benefit society and help America compete. i mean, how many of our STEM jobs do we want to give away to countries who are smart enough to make the right choices? enough damage has been done, per the articles i listed. time to turn it around.

[matt.guitarteacher]

What do you make of this? I don't usually follow this stuff;

Mark Cuban: Forgiving Student Loan Debt Would 'Bail Out the Universities' - Breitbart

I don't either really.

Sheesh. The whole thing makes me ill, thinking about it.

I'm really not a superstitious person at all, but I'm closing on the sale of my pre-bubble, stupid house purchase from 2005 this week, and I'm trying think non-bubble thoughts. May get out with my shirt , after four years of long distance landlording.

The whole student loan thing feels very similar to the housing crisis. I don't hold the author's optimism regarding how "different it is this time". Sounds like classic precrash bubble talk to me. If anything, I would think that it's basis in intangible assets would just allow the bubble to get a lot bigger before it explodes. Those who have interests in it always talk people down until the last moment.

Think about what education represents to the economy, the number of jobs represented by education etc.

[fumblefingers]

What do you make of this? I don't usually follow this stuff;

Mark Cuban: Forgiving Student Loan Debt Would 'Bail Out the Universities' - Breitbart

a good article overall, especially the part that follows Cuban's opinions.

Cuban is only partly right. he doesn't agree with Obama's politically motivated bailout for students, but aims his wrath at universities instead of Obama directly. (Cuban is a liberal, in case you didn't know, and going against O is bad style points. It might hurt his TV show.)

The simple fact is that forgiving debt is a bailout to the party with the debt - in this case the students.

But Cuban says it's a bailout to the universities. He needs universities to be the boogey man, so that he doesn't have to sound harsh toward students, or take on Obama.

A bailout would only help the universities if Uncle Sam continued it's irresponsible loan programs after any such debt forgiveness/student bailout occurred. Perhaps Cuban assumes that they would continue being irresponsible? Not a bad assumption where big spending, big debt, big government loving DC is concerned.

Obama is talking about using money we don't have to bail out student debt to buy future votes from those students - literally. a corrupt, cynical, and unethical game. but hey it's legal.

[destinytot]

In a lot of ways, the reason the modern jazz scene is thriving and able to continue is because it's being funded by the jazz education system.

That, for me, is a truly dystopian vision. Perish the thought - and, if needs be, the whole modern jazz scene along with it.

"Once meek, and in a perilous path,
The just man kept his course along
The vale of death.
Roses are planted where thorns grow.
And on the barren heath
Sing the honey bees.
Then the perilous path was planted:
And a river, and a spring
On every cliff and tomb;
And on the bleached bones
Red clay brought forth.

Till the villain left the paths of ease,
To walk in perilous paths, and drive
The just man into barren climes."

(From William Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell)

[mrcee]

What do you make of this? I don't usually follow this stuff;

Mark Cuban: Forgiving Student Loan Debt Would 'Bail Out the Universities' - Breitbart

Pretty basic.

Debt is like fire: It's a good friend but a bad enemy.

[fumblefingers]

That, for me, is a truly dystopian vision. Perish the thought - and, if needs be, the whole modern jazz scene along with it.

"Once meek, and in a perilous path,
The just man kept his course along
The vale of death.
Roses are planted where thorns grow.
And on the barren heath
Sing the honey bees.
Then the perilous path was planted:
And a river, and a spring
On every cliff and tomb;
And on the bleached bones
Red clay brought forth.

Till the villain left the paths of ease,
To walk in perilous paths, and drive
The just man into barren climes."

(From William Blake's The Marriage of Heaven and Hell)

i don't see how it's a true statement. how is jazz "able to continue" because of jazz education funding?

does it mean jazz educators - well yes, that's true
does it mean jazz schools - again, true

but if jazz means jazz music - (you know, as played live and on record), how do student loans from Uncle Sam fund those?

I saw Graham Dechter with the Jeff Hamilton Trio in Newport Beach a few weeks ago. The crowd was, uh, .... let's just say that they weren't exactly in the age bracket that one thinks of when thinking about student loans.

[jordanklemons]

That, for me, is a truly dystopian vision. Perish the thought - and, if needs be, the whole modern jazz scene along with it.

I'm wasn't making a judgment on it one way or the other...though if the debate came up, I would probably lean more towards this "This is a good thing" side.

But I'm just calling it like I see it.

Name any of the younger modern guys or any of the older generation that are still around that are monster players and killin' it with their performance who are NOT teaching. There's probably a few. I can think of one at the moment. Though he used to teach.

Look at all the schools in NY...New School, NYU, Juilliard, MSM, City College, Queens, Purchase...then look at Berklee and NEC...just look at their faculty. It's got just about everyone on the payroll. Not to mention all the clinics that these guys do, flying around the world teaching masterclasses at other universities.

These schools bring in massive amounts of money, and pay the faculty decently. The teachers aren't making a fortune. I can only speak for NYU, but they make decent hourly pay, plus benefits and healthcare for their families, plus access to high quality facilities, practice rooms, and rehearsal spaces.

I'm sure some of them genuinely just love teaching. But a likewise, I'm sure many of them are just there for the work. A few of these guys have mentioned to me in passing that the money in jazz is no longer in performance but in education, and that if you want to be a professional musician you better figure out a way to teach it. And these are some heavy players! I even had one guy in private tell me that if he didn't have a family to raise, he wouldn't be teaching...just bumming around and playing. He didn't mean it in some "I hate this job" type of way. The context of the conversation was based around the need for the burning passion to play that a musician must have to get anywhere. He was running down a list of things about how much he loves playing. I only remember 2 of the things from the list. One was that if he had no family and nobody financially depending on him, he would just be a homeless guy and bum around playing music as often as he could with anyone that would put up with his stench. The other was him saying that someone could chop off 9 of his fingers, and he'd still pick up his guitar everyday and find a way to play it with that 1 remaining finger.

It's definitely not utopian...but I don't see it as dystopian. It certainly gets some fat cats super rich and puts some people into a lot of debt. But it gives these amazing artists a decent paycheck plus healthcare for their families, it gives them access to rehearsal spaces and recording studios to create their art, and it gives students access to them in ways that was NEVER possible 20 or 30 years ago. And another thing it does if we zoom out of just NYC and Boston...is it makes it possible for some artists to tour. My old composition teacher teaches at universities all over the world. And often times when he goes "on tour", it's because he was able to book a good paying clinic gig a year in advance, and so then he books a bunch of club dates around that teaching gig knowing they won't pay that much money, but knowing it won't matter because the teaching gig will pay him to get out there and he just wants to take advantage of the trip and play some cities while he's there.

Regardless of whether we hold a negative or positive opinion...it is what it is...for now. It will change again at some point.

[Cunamara]

Leon Redbone caused a stir on SNL in the mid-70's with 'Ain't Misbehavin'. Can't find the clip now. It must have been pulled. People were laughing at first but they stopped laughing once he got into the song. here's the studio version;

I think he's retired now. Very funny guy.

I remember seeing that when it was first broadcast and being wowed. I also remember thinking "man, that dude sure looks like..." Ever notice that you never saw Leon Redbone and Frank Zappa together?

Levity aside, what a really fascinating thread for a variety of reasons. I've been watching a few master class type things with Ron Carter, Tony Williams, etc., and am interested by the depth of thought musicians like that have put into the philosophy of jazz. Music as the expression of the process relationships between musicians, jazz as the expression of culture and individuality within those cultures, jazz as the interaction between cultures, jazz as the interaction between musicians and listeners, etc.

In our forum discussions the emphasis tends to be mechanical- how the deviant hyperspastic mode of the harmelodic minor scale works over a demented 27th chord and all- and we get very wrapped up in that. I assume there is value for these discussions for the participants that translates to something they can use while playing music. I have found that it's no longer a relevant set of discussions for me- my mind just boggles as the discussions become more abstruse. I used to really enjoy talking about jazz theory, now I don't.

I'd rather listen to the music and draw from it what I can. My ears are mediocre at best and at 55 maybe not likely to get a whole lot better. But when I listen to what's going on around me more than when I listen to myself, I am happier with what I play. Maybe my ears wound have been better if I had spent more time copping jazz licks when I was a younger man and first starting out, instead of copping blues licks and Bob Weir/Jerry Garcia things. I don't like licks, I try to avoid using them- licks to me are playing on autopilot and are not jazz. That said, we all have cognitive habits and for musicians those habits become licks and I do it too. But those are not the parts of my playing that I like.

Some folks on YouTube and in the forum post their "transcriptions" (transcription is writing something down, not replicating it on your axe. I get pedantic about the misuse of the word) of performances by other musicians- copying Johnny Smith or Joe Pass or Wes Montgomery note for note. I don't understand that (although I am simultaneously and self-contradictorily kind of impressed because I've never been able to do that convincingly). I understand figuring something out, like Miles's solo on "So What" for example, to see how it works and see a lot of value in that for learning, but I don't understand playing it as a performance. If I want to hear Johnny Smith's "Moonlight In Vermont," I'll listen to Johnny's recording. I may be misunderstanding Henry but it seems to me that this kind of thing is what he was initially talking about.

I think aspiring artists need to swing for the fences. Playing a Joe Pass solo on "Jordu" might fool some people into thinking you play great jazz, but it ain't the truth. You copy great jazz. That's not good enough IMHO and we shouldn't settle for it. Learning those things is only a platform for building your own voice.

[fumblefingers]

responding to post #187 (two up).

It's odd. Classical virtuosos want to teach at prestigious conservatories. that's a "score" for them, not a sign of failure. (after all, road life is a shitty life). and like you said, they can be more selective about their playing and touring gigs when they have a steady teaching gig. short of being some top money pop, rock, or country star that's a good option if quality of life matters to you.

it's odd how jazzers look down on having a college teaching gig as "settling" for second best, as if playing in night clubs for frequently disinterested drunks is some kind of career success story. it's also funny how those teachers said they would be bumming around playing here and there instead of teaching at college if they didn't have a family to support. lol. i wonder what that says? does it say that teaching is disagreeable? or does it say that they're just bums at heart?

if its the latter then please let's not hear any more from that professional shake down, beggar group that wants NYC clubs to fund retirements for those players who didn't save their money.

sheesh. i think we need a new thread - "What do Jazz musicians really want"?, you know, kind of like the age old question about women.

[jordanklemons]

it's odd how jazzers look down on having a college teaching gig as "settling" for second best, as if playing in night clubs for frequently disinterested drunks is some kind of career success story. it's also funny how those teachers said they would be bumming around playing here and there instead of teaching at college if they didn't have a family to support. lol. i wonder what that says? does it say that teaching is disagreeable? or does it say that they'e just bums at heart?

if its the latter then please let's not hear any more from that professional shake down, beggar group that wants NYC clubs to fund retirements for those players who didn't save their money.

I don't think it says anything in particular. It was only one guy out of many...maybe hundreds. And part of me wonders if the one guy in question was really just playing the exaggeration card to hit the point home that it's not enough to talk about music, to like it, to study it, to debate about approaches, to dream about being great...you've got to fucking love it and get to work on it. Like so deep within yourself that nothing else matters. Not necessarily a message he meant to be disseminated to the world through me. I've often thought back to that conversation and wondered if he saw something in me that he wanted to try and wake up...to slap me across the face so hard that I would step up my game to what he could see I was capable of.

That type of teaching is not common in this generation of jazz education and academic approaches...but if you talk to the older players that came up before all this stuff really got started, they've all got crazy stories about how the older musicians they were working with would teach them tough lessons...sometimes in really bizarre ways.

Or maybe he really just loves music more than anything else and would be happy being a one-fingered bum as long as he could play all the time.

Honestly, I don't know. It doesn't bother me one way or the other. And frankly, I don't think it says anything about the state of jazz education. At most it would say something about him and his priorities...but again...even that I'm not sure about as he may have been looking to jolt me into committing deeper more-so than he was about sharing some personal story about how he's a victim of his family. His music speaks for itself to me. And I happen to know that he's an amazing father...so it's hard for me to believe that he's just a bum at heart and doesn't care about his family.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The simple fact is that forgiving debt is a bailout to the party with the debt - in this case the students.

But Cuban says it's a bailout to the universities. He needs universities to be the boogey man, so that he doesn't have to sound harsh toward students, or take on Obama.

Who has more influence with Washington (republican and democrat), students or the entire education system? Have you been back to your ala mater recently? The buildings and growth are a little overwhelming at mine.

You can say he's buying votes or whatever, but financial interests tied to the Universities have ZERO influence on Washington politicians? Mmmkay

Universities, and everyone interested in that segment of the economy have a lot at stake in seeing student loan practices continue as they are. Once a market is drummed up with crazy debt like this , anything less than massive growth is going to make it implode.

Recessions aren't measured in backwards DECLINE but in lackluster GROWTH.

It's a bailout for students, universities, and everyone who lives in the college town I just moved from. I remember those kids coming in with their school "checks" , to buy music gear (crazy). In a larger sense, it's a bail out for everybody . Because it's going to really hurt the whole economy when the education system collapses.

I'm not advocating...Just saying....

[fumblefingers]

Who has more influence with Washington (republican and democrat), students or the entire education system? Have you been back to your ala mater recently? The buildings and growth are a little overwhelming at mine.

You can say he's buying votes or whatever, but financial interests tied to the Universities have ZERO influence on Washington politicians? Mmmkay

Universities, and everyone interested in that segment of the economy have a lot at stake in seeing student loan practices continue as they are. Once a market is drummed up with crazy debt like this , anything less than massive growth is going to make it implode.

Recessions aren't measured in backwards DECLINE but in lackluster GROWTH.

It's a bailout for students, universities, and everyone who lives in the college town I just moved from. I remember those kids coming in with their school "checks" , to buy music gear (crazy). In a larger sense, it's a bail out for everybody . Because it's going to really hurt the whole economy when the education system collapses.

I'm not advocating...Just saying....

no, you missed it.

forgiving debt = bailout. bailout = forgiving debt. these are student loans made by the federal government.


Obama is proposing forgiveness of student debt - to him, as it were. that buys their loyalty, or attempts to. he's also proposing making community college "free". that buys young voter loyalty to the Dem party also.

the game is to use students as political pawns in the same way that illegal immigrants are being used. all one political party (Dems) has to do is promise freebies to the large groups in question and then simply look at the other party in the face and say - "your move, dummy. think carefully".

its a big "swing for the fences" move to try to make one party (Repubs) disappear - if - they opt for responsibility vis-a-vis economic stability and national security. have you noticed that none of the 17 repub candidates is talking about the D word (deportation). in the political stare down, they have blinked. and the border surge continues, why wouldn't it?

and it's all done with deficit spending ($ trillions) signed off by people who never owned a substantial budget, and were career failures before they got into politics.

[destinytot]

I'm wasn't making a judgment on it one way or the other.

That was clear.

But I'm just calling it like I see it. .

Ditto, my "That, for me, is a truly dystopian vision" comment being in reference to this sentence only:

In a lot of ways, the reason the modern jazz scene is thriving and able to continue is because it's being funded by the jazz education system.

I do see the above as dystopian. The 'scene' being dependent on a self-perpetuating in-group runs counter to my idea of 'jazz', which I see as a culture whose values flow through not formal but informal channels.

And while I do see that culture as accountable (to knowledge based in an open-ended hierarchic community with its own set of rules), I see institutions as extraneous of necessity. One might ask, rhetorically, "Whose culture is it?"

I'm afraid it almost seems like a Ponzi scheme to me.

[matt.guitarteacher]

no, you missed it.

forgiving debt = bailout. bailout = forgiving debt. these are student loans made by the federal government.


Obama is proposing forgiveness of student debt - to him, as it were. that buys their loyalty, or attempts to. he's also proposing making community college "free". that buys young voter loyalty to the Dem party also.

the game is to use students as political pawns in the same way that illegal immigrants are being used. all one political party (Dems) has to do is promise freebies to the large groups in question and then simply look at the other party in the face and say - "your move, dummy. think carefully".

its a big "swing for the fences" move to try to make one party (Repubs) disappear - if - they opt for responsibility vis-a-vis economic stability and national security. have you noticed that none of the 17 repub candidates is talking about the D word (deportation). in the political stare down, they have blinked. and the border surge continues, why wouldn't it?

and it's all done with deficit spending ($ trillions) signed off by people who never owned a substantial budget, and were career failures before they got into politics.

I'm not talking literal "who's responsible?". Law of unintended consequences or whatever. It's still true that bailing out homeowners who can't repay their mortgages somewhat bails out the loan companies as well. It perpetuates business as usual. I wouldn't think that lenders are lobbying for more conservative underwriting. Again, it's not their money. Basically printing money through these loans. Seems like the loan companies would have to be "interested in the rights of the borrower".

Likewise, schools WANT tuition paid for. Wouldn't imagine they're too concerned with whose money it is. Whether they're the ones bailed out or not is kind of beside the point. I would think they have a lot more skin in the game than students do. They have vested interests in these students "getting their loans" , and I'm sure they lobby for it. I feel like you're arguing semantics.

I don't think Cuban or anyone else thinks that it's literally bailing out universities.