Jazz as a medium of self expression

[Stevebol]

I think that kind of it for me. I transcribed quite a few solos and can't remember any of them, but the process was a good one. I always HATED the idea of imitating other music, of jazz being a regurgitation of past ideas, that I avoided transcription for years. In fact it's really not about that at all...

I think it should train you to listen closely and play what you hear. I think after a while you don't need to transcribe so much because you can hear the detail in music and, on the other hand, you can play what you hear much better. I feel this hasn't reached and endpoint for me (will it ever?) but there's less of a desire now to learn and regurgitate solos. As Emily Remler said - 'who does that?" (Answer loads of people on youtube haha.)

(I think the playing solos thing is a bit fetishistic. There's a thing where people play solos exactly with the record and show their work on youtube. Known players too! Some educators advocate this.)

Some people do this right away (Gary Burton said he'd never transcribed, I don't Peter Bernstein has done much transcription) but it was necessary for me. I'm aiming to get to the point where I can just play things right away. But I find listening to some music can really get the ball rolling. Classical music, jazz, pop. Whatever...

I don't see that as any different to what Henry is saying, if if understood it right?

Jazz is the new classical.

[henryrobinett]

No Patrick - I have never learned licks.

[pamosmusic]

Dude ... he's just drawing a parallel between someone transcribing a line and someone sitting and listening to the tune a hundred times. Both listened to the record. Both learned lines off the record. Both recall them in their own way when they improvise. He's not accusing you of lying. He's just saying that "in a sense" you learn lines. You just didn't sit with a metronome and shed them. You just listened to them a hundred times and down the road - after enough of that - stuff started coming out. I do that too. I transcribe occasionally and I try to listen a lot but I rarely shed the shit out of individual lines. Do I learn lines? Yes of course. Do I practice them to perfection and regurgitate them later? No. I don't think Patrick is wrong in drawing parallels between people who transcribe and learn lines to expand their vocabulary and people who listen intently to the same end. The result is the same. The method is essentially the same. I don't think there's much reason for argument here.

[henryrobinett]

I'm talking about the technique of guitar players learning licks. Not just here but all of my students have gone through this. Other guitar forums are full of people who've posted videos of learning solos. Guys who play SRV solos, -- guys learn solos. Memorize them. That's the way most people have learned stuff. I never have. Of course I imitate. But never a player and especially never a guitarist. There was a period where I sounded like Metheny. Maybe I sounded kind of like McLaughlin back in the mid 70s. In the early 70s I sounded a little like Martino. But I never learned a lick or tried to sound like any of them. I think it would be disingenuous to TRY to be original.

But too often here I find people concerned with HOW it's supposed to be done. HOW Wes did it. What Barry Harris said. How Benson does it. Bird licks. I mean that's cool. But it's not YOU.

[henryrobinett]

I agree that's what you're saying here. You're the one who said "No Patrick" which gives the impression that you were saying something else. Sooooo we agree that you and Patrick are on a similar page then what exactly is the argument. I don't recall anyone telling you that you shouldn't do what you do. So everyone's friends now?

Wow. I'm just lost. Not that it matters or that that's unusual. Patrick, and maybe you, are insisting that I've played licks or what I'm doing is exactly the way everyone else has done it. That's ok. I don't know how everyone else does it other than teaching for more than 30 years and listening to other guitar players on forums and reading interviews and other sources.

You know, I've never played or worked on licks. Licks, ones own or others, are phrases that one learns and plays over and over until you can get some muscle memory going. This, to me, is not exactly improv. Do I play things that I've played before? OF COURSE. There are phrases I'm familiar with. But I've never worked on them. They come out. It's what I hear. The notion that a person should learn from licks or memorizing phrases is cool. It's an accepted approach. Music schools, methods books and teachers everywhere, me included very often, teach you to learn phrases. ii-V patterns. I've just never really done this myself. And I know the lazy players approach is similar. Just play some scales and noodle. Yeah great. That works too. But that's not it either.

[jordanklemons]

I'm well aware that Henry is not interested in my opinion, and seemingly anyone else's on this forum...so much like my last post, this is not meant for him.

I'm writing this, hesitantly, because I know there are other guitar players out there that are probably earlier in their developmental stages and still trying to decide the right path for themselves, and may be following this thread wondering which approach they 'should' take.

First off...I've been self taught for the majority of my musical development and did pretty decent for myself that way. Looking back, I have no regrets. And I was always very similar to Henry in my approach. I listened to records constantly, absorbed the stuff I loved, explored on the guitar, composed, improvised (mostly without licks) for many years. It took a long time, but I started to find a comfort level on the instrument that, in other people's words, was starting to become very substantive and unique. I always felt it was bad and lacking...which drove me to continue working at it...but other musicians would often compliment my 'style' and 'sound' and 'storytelling' approach to playing. I even went so far as to start a blog, as I've already mentioned, where the entire purpose was to help people break away from their urge to sound like other players and develop their own thing.

Here's a perfect example of something I wrote years ago on this topic. My blog is filled with posts like this, but this is the first one that came to mind.
Sonic Exploration - Jordan Klemons

But all this is only one side of the story.

The other side is that after 20 years of mostly self-direction and work, I decided to step up my game, applied to some masters program in NYC and began my program at NYU. I am just about to wrap up my degree and am currently an adjunct instructor there where I teach. I'm not big on name dropping, especially not in a public setting like this, but you can check out NYU's website if you're curious about the faculty I was studying, performing, and recording with. The talent pool is SCAREY deep and wide.



Studying and working with these guys, and being forced to learn in a new way that was foreign to me, taught me a few invaluable lessons.



1. I learned more in any given month by being open to learning new things in this environment than I did in the previous 10 years of self-directed, "self expression" combined.

2. Every single one of the guys I studied and worked with, some of the most talented and unique musicians alive, all went through intense periods of actively stealing other people's stuff and trying to imitate and copy them. And most of them admit that they continue to listen to musicians they love and steal from them. One player who will remain unnamed (but is one of the most recognizable and identifiable musical voices I've ever heard) once went off on a student over this. He's a super nice and encouraging guy, always smiling, always joking, always happy to help and/or play. Someone once asked him how he "developed his own sound and his own language"...it was the only time I ever saw the smile go away. He got real serious, looked the kid right in the eyes and said, "Boy, you better get one thing straight...none of this is mine. Everything you hear me play I stole from someone else. And if you want to stand a shot of getting really good at your instrument and being able to play this music, you better get over yourself and the idea that you're going to do it on your own, and start stealing."

3. Creativity and self-expression (as much as I love and value them...and spend ridiculous amounts of time running a blog about them) are often times over-rated. One of my teachers (who IMO is one of the greatest living improvisors in the sense that Henry is talking about - PURE improvisation) once said that creativity and self-expression are overrated and he doesn't even really know what they mean when people use them. He was far more concerned with questions like...
Are we listening? Are we playing with passion? Are we giving ourselves as completely as possible to whatever it is we love? Are we courageous enough to put an idea out there for others to hear, and not immediately let go for another one, but to let that idea have life? Are we courageous enough to hear a band member's idea, and to put ourselves and our ideas on the back burner to help give life to their vision? Are we willing to be patient enough to get out of the way when the music is exactly what it needs to be? Or do we lose our patience and start to force ourselves upon it? When a student asked Metheny how he could develop his own sound and break away from what everyone else was doing to create his own thing....Metheny responded..."Just focus on getting really good. The rest will take care of itself." (paraphrased) No, I didn't study with Pat. I heard that in an interview q&a. And I've heard Rosenwinkel say similar things. (again, in interviews...never studied with him)

4. Everyone's got a different approach and NONE of them are right or wrong. I was in a big band rehearsal and the band director was giving the drummer a hard time for not keeping the ride cymbal swinging. He stopped the whole band and yelled at this kid about how the ride was the only thing that mattered. He said he should be able to take everything away from the drummer accept the ride, and he should still be able to kick the band's @$$ and keep us swinging. LITERALLY, the next day I was in an ensemble, and the guy running it was getting pissed at our drummer for relying too much on the ride cymbal. To the point that he finally got up in the middle of a tune, walked to the kit, took the drummer's ride cymbal, walked back to his chair and sat down with it in is lap....leaving the drummer forced to figure out a way to play the rest of the tune without it. Both of the guys are right. Neither is better or worse...neither requires putting on your big boy pants, or growing bigger balls, or any of that. They're just different approaches.



While I agree with Henry in certain ways, the notion that this is a dogmatic truth that's 'better' than other approaches is not something I agree with. Honestly, if I learned anything during my masters program, it was that I had been SEVERELY missing out on the growth potential of learning from others....be it licks or otherwise. Since Henry has never learned another musicians licks, he won't be able to appreciate just how much growth can take place from approaching things that way. Though I find it interesting that, while he's never done it, he also admits in the OP that "licks are crucial for getting vocabulary together" and that he very often teaches his own students this way. But that's his process, and that's cool. It's almost identical to what my process used to be, and still partly is.

But I LOOOOOOVED reading Henry's story about Mingus and Dolphy studying harmony with Lloyd Reese. Or finding out that Miles overheard Mike Stern working on things and asking Mike for his teacher's number because he wanted to get some lessons with him. That means as late as the 80's Miles was actively looking to study with other musicians! Crazy! I once went to see one of my teachers perform at the Vanguard and was really moved by a particular piece of music. It was a cover of a tune by a very famous singer. I could literally hear the singer coming through my teacher's instrument. It was insane and emotional and hard to comprehend. In my next lesson, I asked him if he could show me how he did it, how he phrased the lines that way, how he made his instrument sound not just like a singer, but like that specific singer. He said to me, "Man, why are you asking me? You got the records, go listen to him and steal his $#!t. That's all I did. You don't need a middleman." The notion that this guy wasn't expressing himself simply because he heard a sound he loved, stole it, and used it as part of his performance just seems a little idealistic and silly to me. He was pouring every ounce of soul and spirit and heart into every note.

Anyways, sorry for the long message. If you're still in your earlier stages of development, or if you're moving into more comfortable levels of playing but still actively experimenting with different processes and practices...I encourage you to try ALL of them out. Not this one or that one. Try Henry's (and what mine used to be, and still sometimes is) of no licks and PURE improvisation. Sit and close your eyes, no metronomes, no tunes, no play-alongs, and just put your fingers on the fretboard. See what happens. Record it. Listen back. Be playful. If you find yourself playing a scale you know or a pre-fab lick, quickly jump to another part of the fretboard and return to the unknown. But also...try stealing other people's stuff. Learn it, analyze it, use it, record yourself playing it. Imitate it. Alter it. Screw with it. Change it.

Do it all man!

Music is an open ended game...a mirror...there's no right or wrong or this or that. The lines in the sand are ALL manmade. Listen to what you love. Practice what you love. The music will reflect all of it back to you, because it really is just a mirror. The only truth to the mirror of music is that it will never reflect more or less of what you put in back to you. So if you practice a little, and with little passion and honesty...you'll get little music with little passion and honesty. If you pour your entire heart, soul, spirit, and mind into it...your music will reflect that too. And again, there's no right or wrong answer there either. It's whatever you want. Some people are happy being able to strum a few chords around a campfire, and man...if that enriches your life and brings you happiness...you got my support!

Oof...that's was ridiculously long.
Happy Practicing!

[Jonah]

Guys.. I really respect all of you and appreciate it

But really if we want to really discuss such issues as 'to steal or not to steal' it should be a bit beyond praphrase of common cliches...

meaning - with all recpect to personal experience it is bit dissappointing when after reading it through you see that all you got is the same thing that was there at the begining

A: I like creativeity...
B: creativity is over-estimated...
A: yes.. but creativeness is important
B:yes but when it's really creative..
A: those guys I knew were really creative with their creativity
B:Probably they did not over-estimate it?
A: Of course they did not..
B: Great because i though they did and you did
A: No I just said I like it because it's important
B: Yes but you should not over-estimate it... though it's important.. when you're really creative you don;t over-estimate it even if someone says you do .. you know.. do you?


It could be even the same person speking with himself probably

PS
It's a friendly critics.. of course everyone is free to speak the way they want)

[destinytot]

Jordan's comment may be long, but - like its central anecdote - it's powerful. On one level, it's also courageous. So thank you.

It's written for "other guitar players out there that are probably earlier in their developmental stages and still trying to decide the right path for themselves, and may be following this thread wondering which approach they 'should' take."

To me, it reads like 'Advice for the Young'. (Without wishing to condescend, my only Advice to the Young would be this: 'if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him'.)

On a prosaic level, I imagine that more than a few here are separated from the many by opportunity, if not by means. Personally, I freely admit to watching wistfully through the windows of Berklee Valencia on my way home from work.

But here are the fees for 2015-2016. I wouldn't dream of spending that kind of money on even my most cherished dream. Obscene - more so than the hijinx, hell-raising and debauchery that would probably occur were I to be admitted on campus:

The new Duke of Wybourne before a bout of pig-sticking at Berklee.

[destinytot]

Advice for older cats: make 'em scream twice - 'jazz' them, then wipe it off on the curtains.

[destinytot]

This inspires me to self-expression through the medium of 'jazz'. (No irony intended, other than any invoked by this artefact itself.)

[citizenk74]

This inspires me to self-expression through the medium of 'jazz'. (No irony intended, other than any invoked by this artefact itself.)

I'm afraid I couldn't follow the Lyrics, but the title is priceless!

[destinytot]

I'm afraid I couldn't follow the Lyrics, but the title is priceless!

The title pretty much says it all. Love it - but in a (toned-down) 'Tom Waits' way as opposed to as a straightforward revival circus.

Max Raabe treads a fine line these days. I think the following short clip is brilliant, but it could easily have become grotesque because it evokes archetypes with sinister overtones - and I think art is born in such a place. I rather think there's more to it than being another variant on a 'jazz' pose. (The title means something like "Hi! What are you doing today, Baby?')

[Jonah]

his inspires me to self-expression through the medium of 'jazz'

or this?)))

[StanG]

I just want my "me" to not suck.

[destinytot]

or this?)))

This is important work, but - having escaped mainstream teaching for far more (personally) rewarding work - I'd rather misbehave. Having said that, I'm writing - and the choir's got me thinking.

Returning to persona as mask, I think the best artists embrace it - and grow with it, where others (er...​) don't grow.

[Stevebol]

Jordan's comment may be long, but - like its central anecdote - it's powerful. On one level, it's also courageous. So thank you.

It's written for "other guitar players out there that are probably earlier in their developmental stages and still trying to decide the right path for themselves, and may be following this thread wondering which approach they 'should' take."

To me, it reads like 'Advice for the Young'. (Without wishing to condescend, my only Advice to the Young would be this: 'if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him'.)

On a prosaic level, I imagine that more than a few here are separated from the many by opportunity, if not by means. Personally, I freely admit to watching wistfully through the windows of Berklee Valencia on my way home from work.

But here are the fees for 2015-2016. I wouldn't dream of spending that kind of money on even my most cherished dream. Obscene - more so than the hijinx, hell-raising and debauchery that would probably occur were I to be admitted on campus:

The new Duke of Wybourne before a bout of pig-sticking at Berklee.

Same here. Me at jazz school would be an accident waiting to happen. I'd be thinking- F these notes. Lets go make some money and raise hell. Eventually, time will turn us all into this;

I'm inventing a character. The R&B stud who's done and seen it all. I think Leon Redbone did this really well. People laughed at him at first sight but when they listened he defied genre. A throw-back. Old-school.
My stories are too messed up to share so I'll have to put it in the music. I know jazz musicians aren't interested in my R&B extravaganza but that's OK.

[destinytot]

I'm inventing a character. The R&B stud who's done and seen it all.

And turned to...televangelism for a fast buck?

I think Leon Redbone did this really well.

Don't know him but I'll look him up.

I know jazz musicians aren't interested in my R&B extravaganza

If I knew how to get a low-growl like Bernard Wright's synth bass on Tom Browne's Funkin' for Jamaica (sorry - I know you don't like that word!), I wouldn't look back. The sound of all the 'jazz' musicians whose playing I like most contains high-pitch versions of that low-frequency growl.

[henryrobinett]

stevebol - I'm interested in your r&b extravaganza! I also agree that for the most part jazz musicians suck at playing rock, funk, or groove oriented pop. Not always of course, but as a rule. I used to be pretty good at it. In my younger days I played in nothing but funk and original rock bands. I tried but I was never really good at it. If I had had more of a background in Top 40, something I turned my nose up at, I would have been a lot better. But even then I wasn't interested in copying. And I was too good to fire, so I must've been a real pain to a lot of guys. But I was pretty good at funk. I could groove and come up with all those little arpeggiated lines. My solos were kind of a cross between McLaughlin and Carlton, I think. Looking back on it I was a little like Robben Ford later, not nearly as tasty.

But I still get calls to do session work for funky stuff. But sometimes I think that's just because I'm black. LOL.

[Stevebol]

And turned to...televangelism for a fast buck?

Don't know him but I'll look him up.


If I knew how to get a low-growl like Bernard Wright's synth bass on Tom Browne's Funkin' for Jamaica (sorry - I know you don't like that word!), I wouldn't look back. The sound of all the 'jazz' musicians whose playing I like most contains high-pitch versions of that low-frequency growl.

Damn I forgot about that one! Great tune. Not sure what you mean about the fast buck. It's about the school not the money. Some $ would be nice though. Working in clubs is my televangelism since that's all I do. No teaching or recording.
Leon Redbone caused a stir on SNL in the mid-70's with 'Ain't Misbehavin'. Can't find the clip now. It must have been pulled. People were laughing at first but they stopped laughing once he got into the song. here's the studio version;

I think he's retired now. Very funny guy.

[Stevebol]

Leon is known for his whistling. He's the only person I know of who does it well.

[henryrobinett]

Leon is known for his whistling. He's the only person I know of who does it well.

Toots Thielman. Also there's some famous Hollywood guy who whistled for all of those old westerns.

[Jazzpunk]

Anyways, sorry for the long message. If you're still in your earlier stages of development, or if you're moving into more comfortable levels of playing but still actively experimenting with different processes and practices...I encourage you to try ALL of them out. Not this one or that one. Try Henry's (and what mine used to be, and still sometimes is) of no licks and PURE improvisation. Sit and close your eyes, no metronomes, no tunes, no play-alongs, and just put your fingers on the fretboard. See what happens. Record it. Listen back. Be playful. If you find yourself playing a scale you know or a pre-fab lick, quickly jump to another part of the fretboard and return to the unknown. But also...try stealing other people's stuff. Learn it, analyze it, use it, record yourself playing it. Imitate it. Alter it. Screw with it. Change it.

Do it all man!

Music is an open ended game...a mirror...there's no right or wrong or this or that. The lines in the sand are ALL manmade. Listen to what you love. Practice what you love. The music will reflect all of it back to you, because it really is just a mirror. The only truth to the mirror of music is that it will never reflect more or less of what you put in back to you. So if you practice a little, and with little passion and honesty...you'll get little music with little passion and honesty. If you pour your entire heart, soul, spirit, and mind into it...your music will reflect that too. And again, there's no right or wrong answer there either. It's whatever you want. Some people are happy being able to strum a few chords around a campfire, and man...if that enriches your life and brings you happiness...you got my support!

Great post Jordan.

[destinytot]

Not sure what you mean about the fast buck.

Perhaps I misunderstood you, But I thought this referred to a piece of fiction (probably because that's what I'm writing).

I'm inventing a character.

But you mean a stage persona for yourself, right? I think that's great.

[henryrobinett]

And BTW regarding the original intent of this post, I do NOT recommend anyone else do it this way. Not at all. I did it this way. I never said it's my way or the highway. Not me. This is only for me. When I teach I have students learn bits and piece of solos, licks, learn ii-V patterns and do transcriptions. That's the most direct, quickest way to develop your ears. I think this has been thoroughly misunderstood, over and over.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

when you're young,you play the music of advanced people you like,after,you beginto play your own music
HB