An interesting take

[brent.h]

Branford Marsalis talking with his bandmates backstage on the nature of jazz. I can see why his take might be controversial, but it's food for thought.

[dot75]

I saw this clip a few years ago, haven't been able to find it since - I can't find anything to disagree with ?

I've never listened to Weather Report so can't comment on that part...

(Although Dave Holland did say that Miles wandered over to him once at a gig & said 'You know Dave, you are a bass player......')

[GuyBoden]

"ain't Jazz, that's just improv"

[djg]

"ain't Jazz, that's just improv"

that is what i often think when folks speak about their practice schedule and how they are learning this scale and that arpeggio up and down the neck. how do you make sure you end up playing jazz?

Key Centered Approach to Improv and Nashville Numbers

[Christian Miller]

Branford Marsalis talking with his bandmates backstage on the nature of jazz. I can see why his take might be controversial, but it's food for thought.

Yeah, Marsalis laying it down as usual.

Thing is, improvisation and maths becomes people's entry point to jazz, because of the way it is mostly taught, so by the time they are deep in enough to realise that kind of isn't what it's about it can be a shock, cognitive dissonance can ensue.

I suspect the fixation on improvisation in jazz is basically down to the fact that that classical music had lost most of its improvisation tradition by the time jazz appeared, and not having any real reference point for the process by which the music was made. How do you make music without scores? OMG.

(The flip side of this is that the rule of the true jazz composer - Monk, or Ellington, say - gets a bit minimised.)

As he says, the world is full of improvisation. Classical is a freak for getting rid of it, but of course living in the west we see (or at least used to see) classical music as the normal music, but it really isn't. Most music worldwide has both composition and improvisation.

Re: Jaco.. well one of my favourite records is Hejira. But that's not groove music lol.

A lot of people had trouble with Jaco. Tony Williams auditioned him for the New Lifetime for instance, but ended up using Tony Newton, a great Motown groove bass player who ended up doing a fair bit of fusion in the end. Would have been oil and water with Tony, easy to see why. Re: Weather Report, Chester Thompson couldn't play with Jaco. So he said 'it's me or Jaco' and they chose Jaco.

So I'm not personally as dogmatic about any instrument having to do this or that. Zawinul and Wayne clearly didn't feel the same way as Branford. I love Jaco's playing, but from a conventional standpoint it's not what you expect the bass to do. But if you want to connect with a wider and less nerdy audience you need something that connects. All real music is about singing and/or dancing.

[James W]

All real music is about singing and/or dancing.

??

[Christian Miller]

??

Music with a naturally emergent social and cultural context- as opposed to music that attracts an audience of other musicians


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[brent.h]

Music with a naturally emergent social and cultural context- as opposed to music that attracts an audience of other musicians

I remember reading in a short article on musicology... before esoteric and niche music, almost all of music was once upon a time a totally communal experience a collectively owned thing; music was all about community and life. Somewhere in the article there was some mention of how even classical composers were mostly commissioned by the aristocracy or the church to write music for events, mass, or operas. They seldom wrote stuff for themselves to nerd over.

Here's some more wisdom from Branford:

3:45 to 5:10 - about sound
5:24 to 7:13 - technique vs music
8:18 to 10:15 - accessibility of your music

17:10 to 21:58 - what an insight about songs (nice little anecdote)

[James W]

Music with a naturally emergent social and cultural context- as opposed to music that attracts an audience of other musicians

... Which therefore isn't 'real' -whatever that means?

I dare say I've been to some of these gigs with their unnaturally emerging contexts or something. The music was much better than some of the all-singing all-dancing ones.

[Christian Miller]

... Which therefore isn't 'real' -whatever that means?

I dare say I've been to some of these gigs with their unnaturally emerging contexts or something. The music was much better than some of the all-singing all-dancing ones.

I quite like Kieth Swanwick’s term ‘pseudo music’.

I wouldn’t be too literal about it. Some music is about singing when there’s no voice. Other music is rooted in a strong sense of dance feeling but is not literally be danced to. Folk traditions, including jazz and blues tend to be rooted in these things

OTOH classical music finds itself abstracting itself away from and then reconnecting with these things periodically. Peril of the concert hall. Jazz today has similar issues.

How ‘good’ the music is purely a matter of opinion. The social context is self evident. Music needs that context to have meaning.

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[James W]

I wouldn’t be too literal about it. Some music is about singing when there’s no voice. Other music is rooted in a strong sense of dance feeling but is not literally be danced to.

And some music is rooted in neither of those things and is nevertheless very fine too.

How ‘good’ the music is purely a matter of opinion.

An opinion explicitly stated I might be able to respect, rather than an opinion that couches itself in a veneer of objectivity about its purported audience determining whether it's real or not, or how good it is being determined by how related it is (or whether it is related) to dancing or singing.

The social context is self evident. Music needs that context to have meaning.

You don't say. I just don't really like making value judgements on music based on those social contexts.

[Christian Miller]

And some music is rooted in neither of those things and is nevertheless very fine too.





An opinion explicitly stated I might be able to respect, rather than an opinion that couches itself in a veneer of objectivity about its purported audience determining whether it's real or not, or how good it is being determined by how related it is (or whether it is related) to dancing or singing.




You don't say. I just don't really like making value judgements on music based on those social contexts.

I absolutely think that all of the best music originates from a connection to some sort of actual real world tradition (one or more), even if it is quite shocking or avant garde within it. People have to care enough to have a riot lol.

(A lot of bad music also originates here, but at least it has a purpose you know.)

The worst thing for any form of music is to be cut off from that. That’s when it loses connection and that’s why things periodically reconnect.

And those traditions always derive from singing and dancing.

I mean bear in mind, I think of a lot of John Cage’s music as being very rooted in dance for instance. Sure we all think of him as a conceptualist, but he did actually write music, and when he did, it was rooted in that.

For jazz, it’s the difference between coming to rhythm as a mathematical construct and basing it in an understanding of the original rhythms and their cultural heritage which of course, always relates to dance.

You can’t imo develop as jazz musician without exploring that in one way or another.

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[James W]

I absolutely think that all of the best music originates from a connection to some sort of actual real world tradition (one or more), even if it is quite shocking or avant garde within it. People have to care enough to have a riot lol.


(A lot of bad music also originates here, but at least it has a purpose you know.)

The worst thing for any form of music is to be cut off from that. That’s when it loses connection and that’s why things periodically reconnect.

And those traditions always derive from singing and dancing.

I mean bear in mind, I think of a lot of John Cage’s music as being very rooted in dance for instance. Sure we all think of him as a conceptualist, but he did actually write music, and when he did, it was rooted in that.

I'd be interested in hearing what music you think has lost its connection - also, do you mean connection to its/the audience or connection to a tradition? I mean, no one creates in a vacuum, and who the hell creates in a false unreal non-tradition?

For jazz, it’s the difference between coming to rhythm as a mathematical construct and basing it in an understanding of the original rhythms and their cultural heritage which of course, always relates to dance.

You can’t imo develop as jazz musician without exploring that in one way or another.

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Sure, I know lol. I never argued that you can get great at jazz without being able to feel it etc.

[Christian Miller]

I'd be interested in hearing what music you think has lost its connection - also, do you mean connection to its/the audience or connection to a tradition? I mean, no one creates in a vacuum, and who the hell creates in a false unreal non-tradition?




Sure, I know lol. I never argued that you can get great at jazz without being able to feel it etc.

Honestly, quite a bit of contemporary jazz is a bit disconnected. There are also musicians that are absolutely connected. I don’t want to talk about specific musicians for professional reasons.

And it’s not that I don’t like that stuff but it sort of exists in a bubble. There’s a lot of stuff I listen to that appeals purely on a jazz guitar front. I kind of feel that it’s more an expression of craft.

I can admire that, of course. Real music has to connect to people in some way. The upsetting thing is bad music can totally do that lol.

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[James W]

Honestly, quite a bit of contemporary jazz is a bit disconnected. There are also musicians that are absolutely connected. I don’t want to talk about specific musicians for professional reasons.

There’s a lot of stuff I listen to that appeals purely on a jazz guitar front. Even if I enjoy it I kind of feel that it’s not quite real music, more an expression of craft. I can admire that, of course. Real music has to connect to people in some way. The upsetting thing is bad music can totally do that lol.

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If bad music can connect with people, then surely the quality of connectivity is totally irrelevant, and not worth getting upset over? And I find it bizarre that you let your enjoyment of jazz guitar music be compromised by strange notions of it for some reason not being real music. I mean, I don't let the fact that most people would activity dislike John Coltrane's Interstellar Space interfere with my immense love of this album, and my adamant belief that it is an absolute pinnacle of any music anywhere. Why should I let anything get in the way of my own perceptive faculties?

[mr. beaumont]

Even if it connects with one person, is it not still connection?

[emanresu]

How ‘good’ the music is purely a matter of opinion. The social context is self evident. Music needs that context to have meaning.

Not an opinion. Maybe the ' ' meant that what happens in the opinion sphere of how things are - then yes.
Social context is important but some of us like one single song from an entire genre and not because of the lyrics.
Music can create it's own context from the first note.

[Christian Miller]

Even if it connects with one person, is it not still connection?

It's all subjective of course. But I do feel having a connection to people is super important, and it always seems to come out of things that are deep in us as human beings relating to music, which comes out of singing and dancing, and enjoying music in a shared space.

An intellectual engagement with music isn't a bad thing, but it cannot be the only thing....

The way I look at this - it's a different axis to accessibility, and it's not about giving people what they think they want either. Neither do I feel it's going back to the 1930s or something and doing that music. It's about finding something that's grounded and genuine and not just a product of your own intelligence and imagination.

I don't know how else to say it. That's pretty much the whole thing for me. It's the thing that'll save us from the Clanker Slop apocalypse haha. (Maybe?)

[Litterick]

For jazz, it’s the difference between coming to rhythm as a mathematical construct and basing it in an understanding of the original rhythms and their cultural heritage which of course, always relates to dance.

You can’t imo develop as jazz musician without exploring that in one way or another.

Shall we dance? What shall we dance? The Charleston, the cakewalk, the black bottom, the jitterbug?

The property investors among the readership can practice the rich man's frug:

[emanresu]

Yeah. I've never felt like dancing to jazz at all. Maybe it is just me.

[mr. beaumont]

It's all subjective of course. But I do feel having a connection to people is super important, and it always seems to come out of things that are deep in us as human beings relating to music, which comes out of singing and dancing, and enjoying music in a shared space.

An intellectual engagement with music isn't a bad thing, but it cannot be the only thing....

The way I look at this - it's a different axis to accessibility, and it's not about giving people what they think they want either. Neither do I feel it's going back to the 1930s or something and doing that music. It's about finding something that's grounded and genuine and not just a product of your own intelligence and imagination.

I don't know how else to say it. That's pretty much the whole thing for me. It's the thing that'll save us from the Clanker Slop apocalypse haha. (Maybe?)

Just to play Devil's advocate...

What about music like that of Pharoah Sanders, which is attempting to connect to something much bigger than "people."

A lot of music that connects with people is really bad (like you said)

I mean, there's people out there who say things like "Sleep Token saved my life." I think it's the worst music I've ever heard, but if it means that much to someone, well, they're doing something good.

[Tal_175]

Yeah. I've never felt like dancing to jazz at all. Maybe it is just me.

I've never felt like making cabbage rolls to jazz but there you have it:

[emanresu]

Never heard that. A vocalistst is enforcing the harmony beforehand - uuuughh. i mean oh hell yeah. And the second song is my FAVORITE of all jazz of all time - the time where Fallout wasn't ruined by the awful big corporations.

[Christian Miller]

Just to play Devil's advocate...

What about music like that of Pharoah Sanders, which is attempting to connect to something much bigger than "people."

I can dig it. That goes back to possibly the original context for all of this stuff.

[mr. beaumont]

I've never felt like making cabbage rolls to jazz but there you have it:

Man, I could go for some cabbage rolls.

Anybody else dig listening to music from the country/ethnicity/culture of which they are cooking while they are cooking?