An interesting take

[emanresu]

To OP.
Agreed. The thing he is saying about "define french" is exactly what "define jazz" is.
You cannot define a whole humongous set of what is happening with a short sentence.
Define a "world"

Can't. Live in it and you know it. Undefinable.

[Litterick]

It is quite refreshing to hear someone criticise Jaco Pastorius: 'Jaco had three licks that he played over and over again on every song and he ran around the stage and he was the focal point of attention so the job of the bass player which is the timekeeper was abandoned so they didn't groove so I just couldn't deal with it....'

The 22500 dudes in the audience loved it. The women probably were dancing somewhere else.

[charlieparker]

Branford Marsalis talking with his bandmates backstage on the nature of jazz. I can see why his take might be controversial, but it's food for thought.

I listen to it and though I agreed with some of it, I thought a lot of it was lame.

Too much putting down of other players and approaches.

[charlieparker]

Yeah, Marsalis laying it down as usual.

Thing is, improvisation and maths becomes people's entry point to jazz, because of the way it is mostly taught, so by the time they are deep in enough to realise that kind of isn't what it's about it can be a shock, cognitive dissonance can ensue.

I suspect the fixation on improvisation in jazz is basically down to the fact that that classical music had lost most of its improvisation tradition by the time jazz appeared, and not having any real reference point for the process by which the music was made. How do you make music without scores? OMG.

(The flip side of this is that the rule of the true jazz composer - Monk, or Ellington, say - gets a bit minimised.)

As he says, the world is full of improvisation. Classical is a freak for getting rid of it, but of course living in the west we see (or at least used to see) classical music as the normal music, but it really isn't. Most music worldwide has both composition and improvisation.

Re: Jaco.. well one of my favourite records is Hejira. But that's not groove music lol.

A lot of people had trouble with Jaco. Tony Williams auditioned him for the New Lifetime for instance, but ended up using Tony Newton, a great Motown groove bass player who ended up doing a fair bit of fusion in the end. Would have been oil and water with Tony, easy to see why. Re: Weather Report, Chester Thompson couldn't play with Jaco. So he said 'it's me or Jaco' and they chose Jaco.

So I'm not personally as dogmatic about any instrument having to do this or that. Zawinul and Wayne clearly didn't feel the same way as Branford. I love Jaco's playing, but from a conventional standpoint it's not what you expect the bass to do. But if you want to connect with a wider and less nerdy audience you need something that connects. All real music is about singing and/or dancing.

I am not sure that Weather Report connected with any wider audience before or after Jaco joined or that the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra connects with a wider audience today even though it's closer to dance music.

The fundamental problem is most of jazz is museum music like classical music. It's basically keeping alive a tradition that is no longer culturally relevant to the community from which it came.

[Hep To The Jive]

Jaco didn't groove, that's wrong! Maybe the only fusion band that I ever liked, Weather Report. 'Jaco had three licks that he played over and over again on every song and he ran around the stage and he was the focal point of attention so the job of the bass player which is the timekeeper was abandoned so they didn't groove so I just couldn't deal with it....' Sounds like to him to be a timekeeper you must stay in one spot, if you start moving you can't groove looool. That's not even cotroversial, that's just silly!

I love Brandon, but that's jealousy. Couldn't deal with the fact that's jazz lost its entertaining element long time ago, and Jaco was a great entertainer, like a pop musician, but with musical depth of the best of jazz musicians. Louis Armstrong was a great entertainer too, I think he was criticized for that too. God forbid you start putting on a show and attract a big crowd, that's not what jazz is all about right?

[Christian Miller]

I am not sure that Weather Report connected with any wider audience before or after Jaco joined or that the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra connects with a wider audience today even though it's closer to dance music.

The fundamental problem is most of jazz is museum music like classical music. It's basically keeping alive a tradition that is no longer culturally relevant to the community from which it came.

It’s not clear to me that this is the case. Some releases are more traditional, some are very modern, even from the same artist.

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[grahambop]

I am not sure that Weather Report connected with any wider audience before or after Jaco joined or that the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra connects with a wider audience today even though it's closer to dance music.

Heavy Weather sold over a million copies and went platinum, and the track ‘Birdland’ was a crossover success, I suspect the creative partnership of Zawinul and Jaco was the reason for that.

Seems pointless for Branford to knock Jaco who for all his issues/antics had an amazing groove (which it’s said he learned from Cuban musicians in Florida where he grew up). Some jazz players I have seen could do with more of that (I wish I had it!)

[Hep To The Jive]

I am not sure that Weather Report connected with any wider audience before or after Jaco joined or that the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra connects with a wider audience today even though it's closer to dance music.

The fundamental problem is most of jazz is museum music like classical music. It's basically keeping alive a tradition that is no longer culturally relevant to the community from which it came.

Weather Report before Jaco was nowhere near as popular as after. In record sales or live concerts, Jaco helped to take it to the new level. That's just a fact.

Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra does connect with wide audience I think, but as you noticed it's more on the museum type of thing, just preserving a tradition. Not movers and shakers, like Weather Report. Which is still fine, somebody has to.

[GuyBoden]

Listen closely to this 'Weather Report', it's how it was live. Fantastic

I played 'Weather Report' albums obsessively in the late 1970's early 1980's. Great music.

[Christian Miller]

[GuyBoden]

[Average Joe]

A thing in these discussions is that there always seem to be an underlying assumption, that tradition is somehow something that is defined once and for all , and things that fall outside of that isn't tradition. It's the Ken Burns view of jazz, so to speak. Imho it overlooks that tradition is always in flux, they are constantly being renegotiated or developed on. And what might have been ground breaking 50 years ago might be assimilated into what is the current state.

The language metaphor is apt, but not only in the way presented - listen to an old film or audio recording of a public speaker, from the 1940-50s, and development is obvious. Go back a century or two, and a text may be inreadable to a modern reader. Language is never static, genre is never static. Weather Report might have been on the edge of Jazz proper at the time. Did nothing happen within the genre in the decades since?

Now about learning math vs learning the language, i remember spending far more time in french class cunjugating irregular verbs than actually speaking the language. So in that respect there is a point. And yes, language is a central way into leaning about culture. But it is never static

[Christian Miller]

A thing in these discussions is that there always seem to be an underlying assumption, that tradition is somehow something that is defined once and for all , and things that fall outside of that isn't tradition. It's the Ken Burns view of jazz, so to speak. Imho it overlooks that tradition is always in flux, they are constantly being renegotiated or developed on. And what might have been ground breaking 50 years ago might be assimilated into what is the current state.

I don't see it that way, personally. I see it more as - don't accidentally end up doing prog rock. You will know if this happens because your music will only be listened to by the types of gentlemen who enjoy making top ten lists over a pint of Best. There's nothing wrong with that sort of gentleman, and I would be a hypocrite to say otherwise, but I would hope for a wider constituency.

Maybe we can include people who wear baseball caps. Or enjoy sports other than cricket.

All these things are possible.

[James W]

I don't see it that way, personally. I see it more as - don't accidentally end up doing prog rock. You will know if this happens because your music will only be listened to by the types of gentlemen who enjoy making top ten lists over a pint of Best. There's nothing wrong with that sort of gentleman, and I would be a hypocrite to say otherwise, but I would hope for a wider constituency.

Maybe we can include people who wear baseball caps. Or enjoy sports other than cricket.

All these things are possible.

'Would hope for'... and how would you propose attracting the sort of constituency you're after?

[Christian Miller]

'Would hope for'... and how would you propose attracting the sort of constituency you're after?

Grooves. And a bit of singing.


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[charlieparker]

Grooves. And a bit of singing.


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Singing, yes.

Grooves? Maybe, but Joni Mitchell seemed to fare ok with Jaco on bass. I am not sure something that has walking bass has some sort of mass appeal because it "grooves".

Honestly, the whole angle of denigrating music because a certain demographic of men like it is pretty off-putting for me.

If that's not Branford's cup of tea, I get it. But disparaging Jaco or a specific audience is a bit funny, when many of those same prog rock fans are a large segment of Branford's audience.

[benhatchins]

Great insight in your post, and I appreciate how you broke things down thoughtfully. Topics like technique and interpretation always benefit from multiple viewpoints. Music threads like this remind me how much nuance and personal experience matter — it’s rarely one right answer. Speaking of real-world experience, there was that time a family denied boarding got a full refund help-center.pissedconsumer.com/a-family-denied-boarding-got-a-full-refund/ on travel because they pushed back politely but persistently, which shows how sometimes standing up and asking the right way totally pays off. It’s a good lesson in both music and life: articulate your needs clearly

[Christian Miller]

Singing, yes.

Grooves? Maybe, but Joni Mitchell seemed to fare ok with Jaco on bass. I am not sure something that has walking bass has some sort of mass appeal because it "grooves".

Honestly, the whole angle of denigrating music because a certain demographic of men like it is pretty off-putting for me.

If that's not Branford's cup of tea, I get it. But disparaging Jaco or a specific audience is a bit funny, when many of those same prog rock fans are a large segment of Branford's audience.

Tbh I listen to Shadows and Light and come away feeling that the rest of the band needn’t have bothered showing up. Which is quite a thing to say given who they were.

I think Jaco grooved just great. I can see why a lot of people found him a but much tho….

In all seriousness prog has been a gateway drug to other things. I mean sure you might spend the rest of your days listening to Spock’s Beard or whatever, but I think many prog listeners had there ears opened to things like classical and jazz by checking out prog first. Certainly myself ….

I do think prog is a natural step along the road if you have a certain conventionally blokey intellectual sort of engagement with music, and this leaks over especially into the modern jazz guitar world because lots of the guys have come in that way. It’s true today, you see it with the progressive metal thing today.

So, I do think to listen to and make the music with that mindset is to miss what makes jazz jazz. And that’s the stuff that connects with a much wider cross section of people than people who like thinking and talking about music, as you and I do. Conventionally swing - rhythm and groove more generally - melody, that sort of stuff. Doesn’t have to the old swing stuff or whatever, but I got to say that stuff cuts through with an audience. I learned a lot from that music. Something that does the same sort of thing in a different way?

Having the music internalised so thought is no longer necessary and you can actually perform it with conviction and vibe is important too.

Quite hard. So much jazz these days is so flipping complicated. (Not the stuff I write though lol.)

It can be done!


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[Hep To The Jive]

Tbh I listen to Shadows and Light and come away feeling that the rest of the band needn’t have bothered showing up. Which is quite a thing to say given who they were.

I think Jaco grooved just great. I can see why a lot of people found him a but much tho….

In all seriousness prog has been a gateway drug to other things. I mean sure you might spend the rest of your days listening to Spock’s Beard or whatever, but I think many prog listeners had there ears opened to things like classical and jazz by checking out prog first. Certainly myself ….

I do think prog is a natural step along the road if you have a certain conventionally blokey intellectual sort of engagement with music, and this leaks over especially into the modern jazz guitar world because lots of the guys have come in that way. It’s true today, you see it with the progressive metal thing today.

So, I do think to listen to and make the music with that mindset is to miss what makes jazz jazz. And that’s the stuff that connects with a much wider cross section of people than people who like thinking and talking about music, as you and I do. Conventionally swing - rhythm and groove more generally - melody, that sort of stuff. Doesn’t have to the old swing stuff or whatever, but I got to say that stuff cuts through with an audience. I learned a lot from that music. Something that does the same sort of thing in a different way?

Having the music internalised so thought is no longer necessary and you can actually perform it with conviction and vibe is important too.

Quite hard. So much jazz these days is so flipping complicated. (Not the stuff I write though lol.)

It can be done!


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Personally never got into prog rock, not for me. I think the real getaway is blues, with that background you can always can connect with large audience. Unfortunately, you're right, most jazz players today who are in the spotlight came from prog rather then blues. Their audience is primarily other guitar players who into that kind of thing.

[rictroll]

Craftsmen and artists are not the same thing.

And craftsmen and artists don't always appreciate the difference.

[James W]

I'd say it's a good general rule of thumb to not judge music based on its (perceived) audience.

[charlieparker]

Personally never got into prog rock, not for me. I think the real getaway is blues, with that background you can always can connect with large audience. Unfortunately, you're right, most jazz players today who are in the spotlight came from prog rather then blues. Their audience is primarily other guitar players who into that kind of thing.

I listened to Rush and Jethro Tull, but that was about it. My pathway to Jazz was Rock to Blues to Jazz, with players like Hendrix and Clapton being a big influence in getting into the three Kings, Albert, Freddy, and B.B.

Then I got a Wes Montgomery album at 16 and was immediately hooked on Jazz.

[charlieparker]

Craftsmen and artists are not the same thing.

And craftsmen and artists don't always appreciate the difference.

When does one become an artist and not a craftsman? Are all the well known players artists? For me these kind of distinctions are confusing.

If I were to make a distinction, an artist is someone who forges new territory and only a select few would probably fit that for me.

[Christian Miller]

Personally never got into prog rock, not for me. I think the real getaway is blues, with that background you can always can connect with large audience. Unfortunately, you're right, most jazz players today who are in the spotlight came from prog rather then blues. Their audience is primarily other guitar players who into that kind of thing.

I loved blues as well as a kid. I think you can like all sorts of music. Jazz of course relates to broader currents of black music generally - blues as you say - soul, funk, hip-hop etc etc.

[Christian Miller]

When does one become an artist and not a craftsman? Are all the well known players artists? For me these kind of distinctions are confusing.

If I were to make a distinction, an artist is someone who forges new territory and only a select few would probably fit that for me.

You can be both.

Miles was an artist first and foremost. Trumpeters are often a bit sniffy about his actual trumpet playing (they all love Cifford) but there's no doubt of his artistic importance and the vision of his own music. He went through periods of being fit and healthy enough to play very well - the 60s spring to mind - but often his playing avoided that kind of virtuoso display. Sometimes he just couldn't play that well, but he was always worth listening to.

Horace Silver comes to mind too, Monk of course. Players who chose not to express themselves as virtuoso masters of the instrument, but instead leaning into a unique expression - often hiring very virtuoso players.

As opposed to the sot of virtuoso player who can play anything. Such players are valuable too.

In jazz there's still a heavy premium placed on having your own sound. Today's players have that for me - Sullivan Fortner for example. You don't tend to hear so many musicians who are slightly technically imperfect yet compelling on an artistic level in jazz these days? Everyone seems to be a virtuoso.

In rock this goes even further. It's not an instrumental music, so the emphasis is on songwriting, and performance, concept and lyrics are often as important as the music itself. So you have these figures who are not technically excellent players of anything, or even necessarily technically great singers, but they have a vibe and a concept. Bowie, Lou Reed, Tom Waits, Dylan etc etc.