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I have a question for those who care to elucidate me please
I am going through Just Friends, as played by Martjin Van Iterson on his "In The Style Of..." videos.
It starts nice and clear enough, but then over that ii-V that comes on bars 7-8 (Bbm7-Eb7) he chooses to play... F#7b9 Phrygian Dominant (B harmonic minor)
This is a little clip of me playing from the start of the song up to that point, before resolving to Am7 on bar 9
Just a moment...
Can someone please explain why this choice of scale? It seems totally out of place there, yet it sounds good.
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04-04-2026 12:08 PM
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Did you mean B(Cb) harmonic major? = Cb(B)-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-Bb. (B-C#-D#-E-F#-G-A#)
Harmonic minor would have a D (minor 3rd) rather than Eb (major 3rd), which wouldn't work over Bbm7/Eb7.
Over Eb7, B harmonic major supplies b9 (E), #9 (F#), & b13 (B).
Over Bbm7, you have: b5 (E), b9 (B), b6th (Gb) & nat. 6th (G).
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this is the line he plays over Bbm/Eb7
to my ears this is F#7b9 - B harmonic minor
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I see, the major 3rd (D) only appears once in the phrase on the weak beat of a triplet - timing makes all the difference.
If the Bbm7/Eb7 went to Abm#7 (Im), the Ab harmonic minor scale would be similar [to B harmonic minor]: Ab-Bb-B-Db-Eb-E-G.
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Isn’t it the sound of F# Phrygian Dominant? Even more so if you try and play it on the guitar, the fingering suggests this too.
Which is totally a bizarre choice for me. F#7 is a minor third up from Eb7 if that makes sense somehow.
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Minor 3rd up is a fairly common sub for an altered dominant, along with tritone and some others. Although in this case the Eb7 isn’t resolving to the usual target (Ab) it probably works anyway.
Originally Posted by Grigoris
Players like Jerry Bergonzi and Dave Liebman say you can play almost anything over a dominant if it’s a strong line and you know how to land it on the destination chord well.
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not everything is a II-V. he plays the original change Bbdim. so B harmonic minor is fine.
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But there is no B natural on the Bb diminished scale. He plays a B natural (last note of the bar in Bbm)
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what diminished scale? he is playing off B harm min. do you understand that the chord in question is bIIIdim? Originally Posted by Grigoris
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The way I see it is that over a F#7b9 chord you can either play:
- F# half whole
- F# Phrygian dominant
So he chooses the Phrygian dominant (B harmonic minor)
but there’s no B natural over this progression (Bbm7/Eb7) that’s why I don’t understand the substitution.
It sounds good, don’t get me wrong but it would never occur to me to think like that.
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So he’s playing another chord (BdDim/B harmonic) instead of the actual chord written. Thanks Originally Posted by djg
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this tune teaches you a) how a bIIIdim chord is treated in jazz, what substitutions can be used and b) how we can solo over one chord set while the rhythm section plays over a different chord set. there is a whole universe of songs where bIIIdim is subbed with some sort of II-V. alone together or body and soul come to mind. Originally Posted by Grigoris
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This song sheet has Eb7
Just Friends – Sheet Music Singer
From my listening I believe the original chord for Just friends was Eb7 rather than Bbo7. (I.e. an Augmented 6th function) But I’m happy to be corrected.
The chords are closely related
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The Eb7 maybe related to the Bbo7 but there’s a B natural in this lick. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
His choice of notes for that lick are all part of the B harmonic minor. Am I mistaken?
I’m confused because usually I get his way of thinking, I learned other solos of his and I can see that he has the habit of spelling out all the changes. He mostly uses higher structures, often uses tritone substitutions etc.
In a way he’s obliged to, for pedagogical reasons. He has to be meticulous in his choice of scales and chords. That’s why I don’t understand this lick, it’s the first time he surprises me with something so “out”.
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good find. i did not know that. also everybody plays the melody the same way twice. but it is actually different in the first A, different chord too. (...and never kiss again is different from ...and suddenly love died ) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Don’t know, sorry. Originally Posted by Grigoris
It does sound like he’s thinking A#o7 there and using a B harmonic minor.
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Well, Bbo7 (Bb-Db-E-G) = Eb7b9, F#7b9, A7b9 & C7b9 (no roots), and it would suit F#7b9, but less suitable for Eb7b9, A7b9 & C7b9 - actually, it's practically diatonic over A7. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Is spelling a joke to you people? The alphabet rule? Originally Posted by Mick-7
(That said I’d probably rather see Bbo7 in a chart… )
I think the OP is specifically interested in what MVI is playing.
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Sesame Street warped my mind.... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Same thing though, because Bbo7 = Dbo7, E7 & Go7.
Sometimes I have trouble recognizing dim chords so I think of them as 7b9 chords.
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Yeah, being a bit pedantic about what you call the root can help make that relationship a bit clearer. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Sesame Street warped my mind....
Same thing though, because Bbo7 = Dbo7, E7 & Go7.
Sometimes I have trouble recognizing dim chords so I think of them as 7b9 chords.
This is kind of old fashioned, but the dim 7 chord is actually built on the third of the 7b9 chord. They resolve up a half-step to the I chord so they are also called leading tone diminished sevenths, and using a specific root makes their function clearer.
For example C#o7 going to D7, rather than Bbo7 going to D7.
Barry Harris was also a MASSIVE stickler on this point, which makes sense when you understand how he taught diminished chords.
If you view it that way you'll get the correct enharmony. And tbh the trad way of looking at things does help eludicidate functional, traditional harmony. (You lose that connection if you look at the dim7 up a half step, even though that gives you the same pitches. The enharmony does make it clearer.)
So - C7b9 to Eo7, Eb7b9 to Go7, A7b9 to C#o7.
F#7b9 is A#o7, which is the leading tone seventh chord of B harmonic minor. MVI appears to be treating it like that, and playing the related scale, which is the most obvious diatonic choice for that type of chord. Play V/IIIm for #IIo7. So it's good to call it A#o7 in this context.
Barry would say - run A7 down to the third of F#7.
HOWEVER - the same chord also resolves down a half step - and most jazzers would say Bbo7 or bIIIo7. But the scale choice is the same. And you see stuff like Bbo7 D^7 in Wave, for example. Meh. TBH most jazz musicians are absolute Visigoths when it comes to chromatic notation
TL;DR no-one cares Christian
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I would play Eb7 though as a vanilla choice on this tune. Eb7 D7 is really common in tunes in G. Bbm7 Eb7 Am7 D7 is just a dressed up version of that.
And as djg says that non functioning II V - Bb-7 Eb7 (or sometimes just Bb-7) is also a common Bop era sub for Bbo7. There's a famous example in Darn That Dream (also in G) where they actually change the melody to accommodate the changed chords at the end of the A section.
But OTOH a tune like Out of Nowhere clearly has an Eb7 sound and the melody clearly indicates that. Just Friends is not clear in this regard.
These chords have been around for centuries in any case, and a super common sound in the 20s and 30s.
To my ears the MVI line sounds a little more 'out' from the basic harmony. Sound good though, obviously. A tune going Cmaj7 C-6 G/B Bbo7 A-7 D7 would certainly not be weird. I can probably think of an example.
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Out of Nowhere is interesting that it contains both the bVI7 and bIIIdim (as a chromatic passing chord leading to the turnaround). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Taking the rhythmic profile into account, it sounds to me like he's hearing a descending F#7 arpeggio - a chord that can be found within both the Bb/A#º diminished and B harmonic minor - and approaching each note of its triad (F#, A#, C#) from a semitone above. I like how the rising A#º7 arpeggio that follows at the end of the 2nd bar bleeds smoothly into the next with three pitches (E, F#, G) common to A-7.
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So if I understand correctly, the ii-V which doesn’t resolve (Bbm7-Eb7) was a later addition by jazzmen instead of playing the original biiiDim?
There’s also an A7 that doesn’t resolve later on (converts to Am for the final ii-V) and he’s playing it as a A7#11 (Eb7 altered lick). That I understand.
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It wouldn't matter, as I said earlier, Bbo7 = Eb7b9, no root (Bb-Db-E-G), and also F#7b9 (no root). Originally Posted by Grigoris
And B harmonic minor is not the scale usually associated with Bbo7, the dim. scale for it is: Bb-C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A. He may have been thinking of it as a b5 sub scale as you said.
Actually what PMB said makes sense, he plays a F#7b9 arpeggio over the Eb7 chord (and a Bm arpeggio before it) so he's probably thinking in terms of chord tones, not scales.
Originally Posted by PMB
Last edited by Mick-7; 04-06-2026 at 04:09 AM.
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