Just Friends - a Martjin Van Iterson lick. Question

[Christian Miller]

So if I understand correctly, the ii-V which doesn’t resolve (Bbm7-Eb7) was a later addition by jazzmen instead of playing the original biiiDim?
There’s also an A7 that doesn’t resolve later on (converts to Am for the final ii-V) and he’s playing it as a A7#11 (Eb7 altered lick). That I understand.

Nah the original song sheet chord is Eb7 (AFAIK) - bVI7

Bb-7 Eb7 is a decoration of that

But MVI seems to be looking at it as a Bbo7 chord, so it’s a substitution by him.

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[Christian Miller]

It wouldn't matter, as I said earlier, Bbo7 = Eb7b9, no root (Bb-Db-E-G), and also F#7b9 (no root).

And B harmonic minor is not the scale usually associated with Bbo7, the dim. scale for it is: Bb-C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A. He may have been thinking of it as a b5 sub scale as you said.

No, it's the scale most commonly associated with A#o7 :-) (sorry.)

In terms of what gets used by jazz musicians - depends who you listen to. Trane was big on the dim scale, and influenced its use obviously. The bop era players tended to play more diatonically on this chord, and I think that's what MVI is doing here - playing the Eb7 chord as if it were A#o7.

(You also hear chromatic patterns on dim 7's. )

TBH dim chords aren't that common in modern jazz charts. A lot of them got subbed.

I do like the F#7 thing - I do it a lot It’s nice to drop down a half step to play that chord in a bIII turnaround - very guitaristic. This chord belongs to both scales, so in this case it’s a question of how you handle the passing tones. In the case of the harmonic minor it’s a half step above each time - easy to remember! Seems to be what MVI is doing.

[Christian Miller]

It’s quite fun to base lines on

G F# C B G triads

On a

G/B Bbo7 A-7 D7 G
‘Pennies’ style turnaround

Add a b9 to the F# and B chords


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[ragman1]

There's no F, it's an F# (key is G major).

Sorry, quite right, that first note was an F# tied over from the previous bar. I shouldn't have included it. But I still insist that B harm m over Bbm7 is not proper music. It sounds quite good but it's not right. Not because I say so, it just isn't!

The real problem here that apparently only Grigoris has heard the real thing. The rest of us are just guessing on paper. Pointless really, it could go on forever.

[ragman1]

Grigoris -

Is there any way you can record as clearly as possible the actual audio from the video? Just a few bars that include the chords we're talking about. Then we could all stop guessing and passing opinions off as fact!

Try to do it, if it's possible.

[Christian Miller]

Grigoris -

Is there any way you can record as clearly as possible the actual audio from the video? Just a few bars that include the chords we're talking about. Then we could all stop guessing and passing opinions off as fact!

Try to do it, if it's possible.

I thought he posted it all early in the thread? I mean that’s what I’ve been referring to

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[Grigoris]

Yes I recorded myself playing up until that ii-V for fear of getting into trouble with copyrights. I will post an audio clip of MIV playing when I’m back home. It does sound like he’s thinking diminished though.

[ragman1]

Thanks. It wasn't the notes, I couldn't hear the chords clearly.

[ragman1]

Grigoris, I might have saved you. Look what I found. It's still a bit rough but anyway.

Around 0.50-ish.

Mind you, to be honest, I'm not sure it gets us much further.

[ragman1]

Grigoris -

FWIW, your own clip was very good. It's a very long etude, isn't it? I admire your stamina :-)

[Mick-7]

Yes I recorded myself playing up until that ii-V for fear of getting into trouble with copyrights.

That must be why the guy in the clip that ragman shared is wearing a mask?

[Christian Miller]

A half step above what, Eb7? That would be E harmonic minor, not B hm, which as you said, could be played over both Eb7 & F#7 - gives you a minor blues flavor over the latter.

No, each note in the harmonic minor scale is a half step above the V7 chord, with the exception of the 4th.

So you have 5 7 2 and a half step above them is b6 1 and b3


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[Mick-7]

No, each note in the harmonic minor scale is a half step above the V7 chord, with the exception of the 4th.

So you have 5 7 2 and a half step above them is b6 1 and b3

I don't follow, could you give an example? - chord and scale.

[garybaldy]

No, each note in the harmonic minor scale is a half step above the V7 chord, with the exception of the 4th.

So you have 5 7 2 and a half step above them is b6 1 and b3


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Homer Simpson was right!!

[ragman1]

That must be why the guy in the clip that ragman shared is wearing a mask?

He's afraid of giving himself something horrible. But at least he got through it. If I tried it my specs would mist up.

[Christian Miller]

I don't follow, could you give an example? - chord and scale.

OK, let's put it in C minor to make it easy.

You got the V chord, G. G B D. You got three notes a half step above - Ab C Eb. That's most of the C harmonic minor scale except for the note F (which is the 7th of G)

[Mick-7]

OK, let's put it in C minor to make it easy.

You got the V chord, G. G B D. You got three notes a half step above - Ab C Eb. That's most of the C harmonic minor scale except for the note F (which is the 7th of G)

Oh, o.k., what threw me off was that the conversation was about B hm over Eb7, not over F#7 (or A7).

[Grigoris]

On exactly the same part of the song, on his second chorus at 01:15, over Bbm7-Eb7 he plays the iiibDim, the Bbo before resolving to Am.
If the thinking goes that : over the first chorus he played B Harmonic Minor, with the Bb Diminished in mind as a tension before the Am release, then I can only stand in awe of the supercomputer brain that such pro musicians have developed. Or is it muscle memory?

[Mick-7]

On exactly the same part of the song, on his second chorus at 01:15, over Bbm7-Eb7 he plays the iiibDim, the Bbo before resolving to Am.
If the thinking goes that : over the first chorus he played B Harmonic Minor, with the Bb Diminished in mind as a tension before the Am release, then I can only stand in awe of the supercomputer brain that such pro musicians have developed. Or is it muscle memory?

Sounds like you're over thinking this, improvisation is about coming up with good sounding lines, which is not always a logical "this scale goes with this chord" sort of process. More like, "that sounded good, let's see where else I can apply it."

In this instance, the B harmonic minor scale that worked over Bbo7/Eb7b9 will also work over it's chord synonyms, F#7b9/C#o7, A7b9/Eo7 & C7b9/G7o7. It suits A7 & F#7 the best but will also fly over Eb7 and C7 because it includes the 3rd & b7/maj.7 of these chords - so you've got the b7/#7 bebop thing happening.

[Christian Miller]

On exactly the same part of the song, on his second chorus at 01:15, over Bbm7-Eb7 he plays the iiibDim, the Bbo before resolving to Am.
If the thinking goes that : over the first chorus he played B Harmonic Minor, with the Bb Diminished in mind as a tension before the Am release, then I can only stand in awe of the supercomputer brain that such pro musicians have developed. Or is it muscle memory?

It’s just experience.

And there’s not that many moves really. There’s a LOT of tunes that go G Bbo7 A-7 D7 at some point so you develop a bunch of things you can play over that.


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[ragman1]

On exactly the same part of the song, on his second chorus at 01:15, over Bbm7-Eb7 he plays the iiibDim, the Bbo before resolving to Am.
If the thinking goes that : over the first chorus he played B Harmonic Minor, with the Bb Diminished in mind as a tension before the Am release, then I can only stand in awe of the supercomputer brain that such pro musicians have developed. Or is it muscle memory?

I cannot, and will not, try to answer for, or guess at, what MVI was playing. I doubt completely if it has anything to do with super-brains. It could be a mistake that he managed to make sound all right. And here we are trying desperately to figure it out like it was all absolutely a sudden master-stroke of guitar jazz genius.

We can go on like this forever. Why do you want to find the answer to this so badly? We're not absolutely sure what the backing chords were!

In any case he was born in 1970 so he's still very much alive. See if you can contact him and ask him straight. It's all on video. These people are not gods, you can talk to them.

(Be warned, I've done precisely this once or twice and most of them say 'Dunno, just did it'. No, really)

[ragman1]

Okay, I've resorted to AI (mistakes may occur), god help me.

I googled:

What scale are the notes F# G Bb Db F# E D C# B over Bbm?

And it said:

The notes F#, G, Bb, Db, E, D, C#, B over a Bbm (Bb minor) chord primarily indicate a
Bb Half-Whole Diminished Scale (also known as the Bb Octatonic scale), though it features an enharmonic spelling of one of the notes.

There you are, right from the horse's mouth. Now what will you do?

[Grigoris]

To my understanding he chooses to play the F#7 mixolydian b9b13 coming down the scale (F#, E, D, C#, B, A#, G)
Scale notes for F#7 b9b13: F#, G, A#, B, C#, D, E (B harmonic minor)
Scale notes for Bb Half-Whole: Bb, B, Db, D, E, F, G, Ab (B diminished)

I didn't mean to upset anyone by asking this. I try to understand his choice of notes because I'm studying this etude at the moment. I might just forget it and move on to other stuff.

For example: What the F am I supposed to play over the B section of Well You Needn't?

[ragman1]

Grigoris -

Good, I'm glad you're p'd off because I got p'd off years ago here. A person asks a genuine question and before long all the theory professors start arguing and disagreeing with themselves. Or they use the thread to promote their own pet theories. And most of them can't play for toffee anyway.

So please listen. First, ultimately you're going to make it mean what you want it to mean. And probably quite right too. The question is really whether it works when you play it. If you're simply copying the etude there's no problem. It sounds what it sounds like, which is what Iterson played, and who cares what the scales are? So that's that.

You can't play a Bm over a Bbm. It's musical nonsense, trust me. The only time you can do that (as far as I know) is if the chord is a Bbo. The Bbo is the leading chord to Bm. That happens in bossa tunes a lot. You can play B harm m over the Bbo because it's all the same key.

This tune really goes G - Eb7 - D7 - G, right? The Eb7 is a sort of bluesy suspension. But they've put the ii's in so it becomes G - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Am7 - D7 - G. See the point? So the chord is NOT a Bbo, it's a Bbm and you can't play Bm over it no matter how 'correct' it is. It may sound sort of all right but that's not what Ivertson is doing.

The notes of that Bbm bar are the scale notes of a diminished run. That's what you yourself and others said quite early on. It's a weird way of playing the Bbm but it can be done. If you want that sound then go for it. That's a Bb half-whole dim scale followed by the A7 tritone sub.

But, as I said, ultimately you're either just going to play it as written or you'll make your own lines up. That's all I can say.

Best of luck. You've earned it

[James W]

You can't play a Bm over a Bbm. It's musical nonsense, trust me. The only time you can do that (as far as I know) is if the chord is a Bbo. The Bbo is the leading chord to Bm. That happens in bossa tunes a lot. You can play B harm m over the Bbo because it's all the same key.

You definitely can play B minor over B flat minor. Just because something doesn't work out according to theory, that doesn't mean you can't do it. One of the most characteristic aspects of jazz is its outside sounds.

I take pity on those who are apparent led by some kind of prescriptive theory about what is permissible and what isn't.