Charlie Parker fully analyzed

[princeplanet]

...they were smart, incredibly creative, and played more than any of us every will.

Not to mention the fierce competition / rivalry. There were spots up for grabs, and possibly thousands of people gunning hard for them. Humans are capable of truly great things when they feel their lives depend on it!

[2bornot2bop]

Wow, you're going to dig up an old argument to blatantly straw man me. The 3 points that you 'refute' me on appear nowhere in my 2 posts that you quoted.

1. No crap we don't know what Parker was thinking. We have evidence that points to the idea that he probably used theory tho. (In addition to his musicianship.)
2. No crap all good players learn a good portion from music around them and their peers. I never said anything of the sort to the contrary. Go direct me to the post where I said they don't.
3. No crap jazz evolved a large proportion from black blues/folk influences. I said it didn't only come from there. It also evolved from ragtime which came from 1800s classical marches. Joplin was black. Again, please direct me to my post where I said the opposite. I'd say quote me, but if you'll straw man me this severely, who's to say you won't purposely misquote me.

There’s zero influence or link between the maple leaf rag, and bebop. Absolutely none. Joplin was a good composer but his work had zero influence upon the music scene of 1945.

What Joplin did was the music of 1900. He couldn’t imagine the daily freedoms of black musicians in 1945. Dating a white woman? Now that’s unheard of even for 1945. But it happened.

[Christian Miller]

A lot of people get early jazz and ragtime confused

[Bobby Timmons]

Jelly Roll Morton and other pianists at the turn of the century were at the origins of jazz. They both played rags and improvised in that style. Then it was moved to full band with Dixieland around the 1910s. You guys need to calm down. And please drop it with the race thing, 2b. I don't even know what you're arguing about.

[Bobby Timmons]

Here ya go. This is pretty accurate. It notes the black folk influence with blues and gospel, but ragtime was also part of the equation. - Most of this was black. Part of the origins of ragtime were white tho - classical marches.

Ragtime - Wikipedia

[Bobby Timmons]

Listen to the library of congress recordings by Jelly Roll Morton made in 1938. You can hear the history of the music and he also tells the story of it. He plays in the style of ragtime/stride also boogie blues and early jazz. He came up in the 1900s with ragtime. This got moved to full band with Dixieland in the 1910s, and jazz became more or less fully formed in the 1920s.

[Christian Miller]

Here ya go. This is pretty accurate. It notes the black folk influence with blues and gospel, but ragtime was also part of the equation. - Most of this was black. Part of the origins of ragtime were white tho - classical marches.

Ragtime - Wikipedia

this is very simplistic, way too linear for one, but it would be decent for a general classroom presentation. I assume that’s its intended use.

I’m also presuming the artists below aren’t meant to represent the sub genres above because they don’t line up. Unless we are to assume Dexter Gordon is a funk musician and that Wynton Kelly was a practitioner of free jazz haha. I assume it's more of a rough chronology.

Anyway given those two things I don’t have too many issues with the broad outline here. Ragtime was an influence on but clearly separate from early or classic era jazz. We know from Joplin’s own negative feelings about the way music was going (he died in 1917) he probably wouldn't have been much of a jazz guy. He wanted to write operas.

Twenty years later it would be the turn of the New Orleans jazz fans hating on swing music. And then swing guys hating on bebop…. And so on, until we come to JGO haha

With modern ears, there's obviously not as much to discern between Joplin and Jelly Roll and James P Johnson unless you listen to lots of that stuff when compared to, say, Brad Mehldau or something. So lumping in ragtime with early jazz as a lot of people do, even jazzers, is understandable. Anyway, Ethan Iverson is a good guy on all this stuff, he's a bit of an early jazz piano nerd. And then of course you have Dick Hyman.

Early jazz rep tends to lean on the march repertoire and form its true, often so called society (ragtime) marches like At a Georgia Camp Meeting or High Society, the clarinet solo of which Bird often quoted.

(This solo predates Bechet btw.)

In which case this is ragtime repertoire played with a jazz feeling and jazz embellishments.

maybe that’s what you had in mind

[Christian Miller]

Anyway, this video is great, you probably know it

He seems to be basically saying that Jelly Roll took a load of stuff including ragtime and mixed it up which is what you said I think about that Jelly Roll recording (I haven't listened to it yet). The key difference to my ears seems to be the way he feels the Morton compared to the Joplin - it swings. Joplin is syncopated, but straight. Which is why classical guys can play it, of course.

[Bobby Timmons]

Yes, I agree with the points you made. Some more music around the origins.

The first band labeled jazz, playing a rag in 1917.

You can hear how gospel at the time had a framework like jazz. Just no improv and aggressive melody. Ragtime provided the advanced melody. Then it leaped to dixieland, and dixieland evolved into jazz. The 1st tune on here was recorded in 1910 and 2 others in 1906 and 1909.

[AaronMColeman]

Not to mention the fierce competition / rivalry. There were spots up for grabs, and possibly thousands of people gunning hard for them. Humans are capable of truly great things when they feel their lives depend on it!

That's a great point that is often overlooked. Competition forces people to push themselves further.

I read "Kansas City Lightning" recently about early Charlie Parker. The gist of one section was the idea that white musicians were ripping off black music in the 30s and 40s. So the early bebopers decided to make music so hard the white players couldn't rip it off. I hope that is true, I like that competition just drove them all to be the best. Not to get too romantic or sentimental, but it sure seems like a magical time where musicians had access to eachother. Now forums like this are as close as a lot of us get to other players.

[James W]

Not to mention the fierce competition / rivalry. There were spots up for grabs, and possibly thousands of people gunning hard for them. Humans are capable of truly great things when they feel their lives depend on it!

Probably at least as much camaraderie and knowledge-sharing though. Music is an art not a competition.

[2bornot2bop]

That's a great point that is often overlooked. Competition forces people to push themselves further.

I read "Kansas City Lightning" recently about early Charlie Parker. The gist of one section was the idea that white musicians were ripping off black music in the 30s and 40s. So the early bebopers decided to make music so hard the white players couldn't rip it off. I hope that is true, I like that competition just drove them all to be the best. Not to get too romantic or sentimental, but it sure seems like a magical time where musicians had access to eachother. Now forums like this are as close as a lot of us get to other players.

You darn right it was a competition! And that competition spawned bebop. What I don’t get is why is it so hard for people to understand? Blacks weren’t getting the top prime time gigs white players were. You can’t remove the race and rhythmic superiority from those days. So, angry black men created bebop because they didn’t receive their rightful recognition. And that was the end of the competition. This was the realities of the time. Truth.

[2bornot2bop]

Probably at least as much camaraderie and knowledge-sharing though. Music is an art not a competition.

Where there is no respect there is no camaraderie.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Dizzy, Tadd, Mary Lou and … Jack Teagarden (1947)

[2bornot2bop]

Here ya go. This is pretty accurate. It notes the black folk influence with blues and gospel, but ragtime was also part of the equation. - Most of this was black. Part of the origins of ragtime were white tho - classical marches.

Ragtime - Wikipedia

How does a chart even mention the 60’s without beginning with the name John Coltrane?

Truth is, you can’t even mention the word Jazz without discussing race. That’s like discussing mathematics without discussing Einstein.

[Bobby Timmons]

I know. Like Christian said, it's very simplistic. I just used it to illustrate the point about ragtime. Your post is true about the competition and subjugation.

You darn right it was a competition! And that competition spawned bebop. What I don’t get is why is it so hard for people to understand? Blacks weren’t getting the top prime time gigs white players were. You can’t remove the race and rhythmic superiority from those days. So, angry black men created bebop because they didn’t receive their rightful recognition. And that was the end of the competition. This was the realities of the time. Truth.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

How does a chart even mention the 60’s without beginning with the name John Coltrane?

John Coltrane is below Miles upper row at the right below 1949 Cool Jazz.

[…] Truth is, you can’t even mention the word Jazz without discussing race. That’s like discussing mathematics without discussing Einstein.

That’s of course true but I think it is a mistake to look at the world only as only black and white [sic]. It is not that easy. Charlie Christian, one of the forerunners of bebop (who learned from Mary Lou as well BTW), played in one of the first famous mixed bands with Bennie Goodmann (who did not like Charlie’s fancy clothes at first but could not resist his playing).

[James W]

You darn right it was a competition! And that competition spawned bebop. What I don’t get is why is it so hard for people to understand? Blacks weren’t getting the top prime time gigs white players were. You can’t remove the race and rhythmic superiority from those days. So, angry black men created bebop because they didn’t receive their rightful recognition. And that was the end of the competition. This was the realities of the time. Truth.

Many things spawned bebop. I think you're oversimplifying (possibly to the point of caricature) a complex process of creation, of which the factors you mention were but a few involved.

[2bornot2bop]

John Coltrane is below Miles upper row at the right below 1949 Cool Jazz.

Yes, but Trane hadn’t come into his prime until the mid 50’s.

That’s of course true but I think it is a mistake to look at the world only as only black and white [sic]. It is not that easy. Charlie Christian, one of the forerunners of bebop (who learned from Mary Lou as well BTW), played in one of the first famous mixed bands with Bennie Goodmann (who did not like Charlie’s fancy clothes at first but could not resist his playing).

Goodman recognized Christian’s talent, which is why he hired him on the spot. Exactly, Goodman accepted Christian displaying his flashy dressing because he could play. But Christian was a young man with country roots. Did Charlie stay in the same hotel on the road with Goodman? The times would suggest no. I don’t know if Goodman’s celebrity status carried that much clout in 1942, but then again, they weren’t playing in the South.

[2bornot2bop]

Many things spawned bebop. I think you're oversimplifying (possibly to the point of caricature) a complex process of creation, of which the factors you mention were but a few involved.

Caricature? In 1942, from bands to the Army, all of society was segregated. Right, segregation had zero influence on the creation of bebop. Denial much?

[2bornot2bop]

Charlie Parker: I’m an Artist, not an entertainer.

So much for bebop killing off the dance music of the day.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Yes, but Trane hadn’t come into his prime until the mid 50’s. […]

Misunderstanding: I thought you had overlooked his name in that questionable chart.

[…] Goodman recognized Christian’s talent, which is why he hired him on the spot. Exactly, Goodman accepted Christian displaying his flashy dressing because he could play. But Christian was a young man with country roots. Did Charlie stay in the same hotel on the road with Goodman? The times would suggest no. I don’t know if Goodman’s celebrity status carried that much clout in 1942, but then again, they weren’t playing in the South.

I am the last one to question the existence of Jim Crow laws etc. That is why I recently posted that interview of Clark Terry and Joe Williams who share their experiences regarding that topic as well.

I am not shure if Goodman ever toured with the mixed small ensemble.

[2bornot2bop]

Just imagine Trane playing Kamasi Washington’s Truth.

[AaronMColeman]

Not to mention the<em> fierce </em>competition / rivalry. There were spots up for grabs, and possibly thousands of people gunning hard for them. Humans are capable of truly great things when they feel their <em>lives</em> depend on it!

<br><br>That's a great point that is often overlooked.&nbsp; Competition forces people to push themselves further.<br><br>I read "Kansas City Lightning" recently about early Charlie Parker.&nbsp; The gist of one section was the idea that white musicians were ripping off black music in the 30s and 40s.&nbsp; So the early bebopers decided to make music so hard the white players couldn't rip it off.&nbsp; I hope that is true, I like that competition just drove them all to be the best.&nbsp; Not to get too romantic or sentimental, but it sure seems like a magical time where musicians had access to eachother.&nbsp; Now forums like this are as close as a lot of us get to other players.

[2bornot2bop]

Today, there are no bands that exist where a young player can get some experience to better himself. And all of the clubs are gone. Where do you gain the experience as a young musician?

- Dizzy Gillespie, 1985

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