Charlie Parker fully analyzed

[Bobby Timmons]

Today, there are no bands that exist where a young player can get some experience to better himself. And all of the clubs are gone. Where do you gain the experience as a young musician?

- Dizzy Gillespie, 1985

There’s some seriously fabulous content here:

I watch the Small's cam on youtube where they have a featured combo then a jam. Lot of 20 somethings playing at a high level. That's in NYC tho.

[James W]

Caricature? In 1942, from bands to the Army, all of society was segregated. Right, segregation had zero influence on the creation of bebop. Denial much?

That's not what I said. Read my post 218 until you comprehend it.

The caricature part of your post I was referring to was describing the inventors of Bebop as 'angry' which belies the subtlety and complexity of them and their music and is something of a cliché.

[TF]

A lot of info of all sorts on this thread.

I read somewhere that Parker started his self-education by learning "Honeysuckle Rose" in all keys. Anyone here ever do this?

[AllanAllen]

I watch the Small's cam on youtube where they have a featured combo then a jam. Lot of 20 somethings playing at a high level. That's in NYC tho.

It looks like there is one MONTHLY jazz jam in the city of Chicago. I mean, compare that to every hotel bar having a little group where your teacher plays 6 days a week and they’ll let you come up. The opportunities just aren’t there. I’m 60 miles south from the city and this weekend someone is driving from Chicago to me so we can play jazz.

There is a space between deciding “I want to play jazz” and a Green Mill residency that I can’t seem to navigate.

[DawgBone]

It looks like there is one MONTHLY jazz jam in the city of Chicago. I mean, compare that to every hotel bar having a little group where your teacher plays 6 days a week and they’ll let you come up. The opportunities just aren’t there. I’m 60 miles south from the city and this weekend someone is driving from Chicago to me so we can play jazz.

There is a space between deciding “I want to play jazz” and a Green Mill residency that I can’t seem to navigate.

Are any of these jam sessions still active? If so then you could hit one just about every night. That was a quick google search of open jazz jams in chicago. I would expect there to be more if you probe surrounding areas as well.

Jam sessions

[AllanAllen]

I’m not sure, I left the city but I wouldn’t be surprised that my Google attempt failed.

[GuyBoden]

These two 1974 Charlie Parker dissertations by Thomas Owens give detailed and interesting examples of Charlie Parker's playing.

Charlie Parker Dissertation Volume I Thomas Owens 1974 : Thomas Owens : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Charlie Parker Dissertation Volume II Thomas Owens 1974 : Thomas Owens : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[GuyBoden]

If you were taught CST for many years, why not use it for analysing Bebop Phrases?

Rightly or wrongly, I can't help using CST as a tool. See example below.

[AllanAllen]

If you were taught CST for many years, why not use it for analysing Bebop Phrases?

Rightly or wrongly, I can't help using CST as a tool. See example below.

CST works great for analysis, like you show this example. It’s when all the mode names get involved that I get confused, and I think I can’t use it for soloing.

And that C# is a sharp 4 written like that.

[pamosmusic]

If you were taught CST for many years, why not use it for analysing Bebop Phrases?

Rightly or wrongly, I can't help using CST as a tool. See example below.

I absolutely use CST all the time, but the case against using it:

This is maybe a good example of how CST can actually obscure what’s going on in a phrase. For example, I don’t think that ii-V has much “V” going on. So that C# down to A is a leading tone to fifth thing that is pretty common as a device in bebop. So that C# isn’t there to be a b5 or #11, it’s there as part of a melodic device related to the notes around it, rather than to the underlying chord.

That 1 b7 7 is another spot … it’s not useful to think of a b7 as it relates to C major, but rather as the lower note in an enclosure of the B.

So I think CST is quite useful, but you have to know where those bebop devices are and kind of exclude them from the analysis or you’ll end up with some fairly odd conclusions, and/or missing the best melodic devices

EDIT: Also for what it’s worth, this is the Groovin’ High lick, no? That would make bar 1 a Dm and bar 2 a G7?

[Christian Miller]

Chord scale theory aside, a big philosophical objection I have to analysing intervals over a chord is that it implies there’s some definitive set of changes everyone is soloing on. This is not the case for most of birds music (most of birds music being blues and rhythm changes.)

If you are looking at his music harmonically I think a better way to look at it is a set of changes in isolation and only when that analysis is done comparing to the ‘idealised changes’ and what the rhythm section might be playing etc

A very good example is Barry Harris’s point that Bird often played G7 over Dm7 G7. There’s also Steve Coleman’s concept of ‘invisible pathways’ where a line might be end up at a harmonic destination such as a I chord via a completely different route than the orignal chords or the rhythm section. If you try to analyse that from the ‘vertical intervals over a set of vanilla changes’ it may well make zero sense - or more often the student starts invoking all sorts of needless convoluted rationalisations.

Another problem is that if you are too rigid you may miss devices like anticipation. jazz improvisers often improvise not over the chord of the moment but the next chord.

Anyway I set my thoughts out in this video.

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[AllanAllen]

Good jazz improvisers often improvise not over the chord of the moment but the next chord.

I did this last night on mistake and was very surprised that it sounded good! It sounded like real jazz. Kind of shocking to know I’m on the “wrong chord” and have it shine.

[GuyBoden]

EDIT: Also for what it’s worth, this is the Groovin’ High lick, no?

Well done for spotting that the phrase was Groovin’ High, I was wondering if anyone would notice.

[Mick-7]

If you were taught CST for many years, why not use it for analysing Bebop Phrases?

Rightly or wrongly, I can't help using CST as a tool. See example below.

A simpler interpretation of that phrase is to think of the nondiatonic notes, C# & Bb, as passing tones. One or more notes can be "interpolated" (in Slonimsky lingo) between diatonic notes to jazz up a phrase. In this case, the last note in the first measure (A) is interpolated between the preceding C# and the C in the next measure. And of course how you execute the phrase - rhythmic accents and speed at which it's played - will determine how much interpolation you can employ without sounding too off the wall.

[GuyBoden]

Originally, this thread seemed to be about using CTS for analysing Charlie Parker phrasing.

I admit, I do use CST, I just can't help it. After many years, it's become instinctive.

I seem to automatically analyse how the notes fit to the chords.

Here's how I would apply CST to this classic Bebop phrase.

Please help, because I can't see anything wrong with this method?

[Christian Miller]

Originally, this thread seemed to be about using CTS for analysing Charlie Parker phrasing.

I admit, I do use CST, I just can't help it. After many years, it's become instinctive.

I seem to automatically analyse how the notes fit to the chords.

Here's how I would apply CST to this classic Bebop phrase.

Please help, because I can't see anything wrong with this method?

I mean there’s nothing wrong with it per se. It’s one way of several of examining a piece of musical material. I do think you can learn a lot by looking at things in different ways.

For an experiment, blot out the chords and look at what the dots are saying. (It’s also worth nothing that this harmonic context is not the original which itself teaches you something.)

I’ll tell you what I see/hear if you have a look and see if it gives a different perspective.

(Apologies if you’ve already done this)

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[Mick-7]

I seem to automatically analyse how the notes fit to the chords.

Nothing wrong with that, but all diatonic notes in the tonal center (C major in this case) will suit the chords. It's when you introduce nondiatonic (altered) notes that the head scratching begins... "what the hell is that?!"

[pamosmusic]

Originally, this thread seemed to be about using CTS for analysing Charlie Parker phrasing.

I admit, I do use CST, I just can't help it. After many years, it's become instinctive.

I seem to automatically analyse how the notes fit to the chords.

Here's how I would apply CST to this classic Bebop phrase.

Please help, because I can't see anything wrong with this method?

Per Christian, this is Ornithology and not how the notes relate to the original changes. Would he just the C chord in the key where it’s transposed.

Also for what it’s worth, this particular passage doesn’t have any nondiatonic notes and like Mick mentioned, the gaps in the analysis really become apparent when you have more non-diatonic notes.

And I was sort of trying to express some of those limitations in my earlier post.

I guess if I were trying to make an analogy, marking the scale degrees under each note sort of feels like counting the letters in a passage of Shakespeare. Is there something useful to learn by patterns of letters in Shakespeare? Maybe, but you have to be looking from a higher altitude to start seeing the magic … words, phrases, concepts

There needs to be some incorporation of the language … in the Groovin High example, for instance, it’s useful to think of that B in a CST way maybe, but you have to also then think of that note as a unit, because C and A# have no real use there except as they pertain to B. So you have to really think in terms of “words” at least, rather than just “letters.” And even then it might make more sense still on the “sentence” level to think of that D C# C B as a line cliche on the minor or whatever, which again has little to do with the chord scale we’re using over the D or G7 (on top of which it would involve some chord generalizing like Christian mentioned).

[GuyBoden]

Per Christian, this is Ornithology and not how the notes relate to the original changes.

Well done for knowing that the phrase was Ornithology, obviously Christian knew too.

So, if you already know CST, I think it can be a useful tool when analysing a phrase and finding what chord progression the phrase might fit.

To my ears, the simple Ornithology phrase does fit over a iiVI, so could be used during improv over similar chord progressions.

[Christian Miller]

Well done for knowing that the phrase was Ornithology, obviously Christian knew too.

Well, it's not bragging rights lol, but thanks. Being able to audiate familiar melodies is kind of a basic skill to have as a professional musician. Some people's ears are just ridiculous.

(If you are interested in working on this I can make some recommendations)

So, if you already know CST, I think it can be a useful tool when analysing a phrase and finding what chord progression the phrase might fit.

To my ears, the simple Ornithology phrase does fit over a iiVI, so could be used during improv over similar chord progressions.

Yeah it's cool - C major on Dm7 G7 will go.

The chord tones emphasised by the line are the C triad - G C E G. So in effect you are playing a C/D sound on Dm7 which is big and clever. Which is how I prefer to think of it rather than intervals from the root (Stefon Harris style) - on paper it's the same thing, just a different perspective. (I suppose I'm a weirdo in that I actually like slash chords)

By doing your interval analysis you are confirming what upper extensions this substitution imply again the vanilla chords. I would counsel against being too rigid about this though - for instance having a C against the G7 for instance is not the big deal the theory books make it out to be (you could be prolonging the Dm7 for instance, or ingnoring G7. Barry Harris didn't even think this way, notes on chords, so that stuff was pretty much ignored for his particular approach. It was all much more blocked - notes from the Db7 scale over G7, that kind of thing.)

It's not a CST thing specifically - the CST comes in when you relate these intervals to scales, which is when it can get a bit metaphyscal lol.

Note - not every sub like this makes sense on the level.

[Christian Miller]

I did this last night on mistake and was very surprised that it sounded good! It sounded like real jazz. Kind of shocking to know I’m on the “wrong chord” and have it shine.

Mistakes are how we learn. Sometimes to avoid the mistake. Sometimes to do the mistake on purpose.

[GuyBoden]

I think that this classic minor Bebop phrase is where using CST analysis starts getting messy.

So, I'm thinking the phrase is using enclosures and approaches for the chord tones.

[Stevebol]

Melody is the common link between all music- BB King.

[Christian Miller]

I think that this classic minor Bebop phrase is where using CST analysis starts getting messy.

So, I'm thinking the phrase is using enclosures and approaches for the chord tones.

BTW this isn’t CST analysis, it’s recognising intervals over chords. It’s CST analysis if I say something like ‘the b9, b7 and the 3 come from the blah blah scale’.

(actually you have also decide what scale it is from limited info. So you may say, D locrian, G altered, C melodic minor or some such. But there’s other solutions, which is what I mean about metaphysics.)

I don’t have a problem with recognising intervals on chords, but I do think the ‘analyse the line in isolation’ approach is very helpful and not widely taught.

The entire line except the F# belongs to the C harmonic minor of course. Quite a common feature of minor bop lines. (Not that that is this observation is the be all and end all, far from it.)


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[GuyBoden]

BTW this isn’t CST analysis, it’s recognising intervals over chords.

Thanks, yes, I'm analysing the intervals used in the phrase to find the chords that may fit the phrase.

I'm not sure if using the whole interval names is clearer. Examples b3rd or 5th is clearer than using b3 and 5.

Below is a very cliche Bebop lick and my interval/chord analysis using the whole interval names. 1st, 5th, b3rd, b7th etc.