Peter Berstein - Minor 6th vs Minor 7th Sound

**christianm77** · 07-25-2016, 08:20 PM

They all said I was mad!!!!

m7 is not really minor

**jordanklemons** · 07-25-2016, 11:56 PM

Great find Christian. I could ramble on for way too long about how many amazing, yet tiny, subtle points he makes in this video... and I'm only half way through it. Thanks for sharing.

**Melodic Dreamer** · 07-26-2016, 01:20 AM

Very cool indeed.

**Boston Joe** · 07-26-2016, 11:14 AM

Interesting.

**KirkP** · 07-26-2016, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

m7 is not really minor

I think it would be more accurate to say:
m7 is not a tonic minor.

Bernstein is a treasure.

**princeplanet** · 07-26-2016, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by KirkP

I think it would be more accurate to say:
m7 is not a tonic minor....

Aeolian minor gets little love in Jazz, but it can be done...

**KirkP** · 07-26-2016, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Aeolian minor gets little love in Jazz, but it can be done...

The most important thing is to develop the ear to hear the difference between the various minor chords (m7, m6, mM7) and a sense of where to use them. And don't trust the fake books -- I think they often use m7 where m6 would better fit the melody.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-26-2016, 02:02 PM

Sometimes you can think of the m7 as a sus chord or a passing chord.

**Reg** · 07-29-2016, 11:43 AM

You can say anything as long as you have a reference from which you base what your saying. If you can't hear a Minor 7th chord as a Tonic.... what ever you want to be the tonal reference.... your going to miss a lot of music. Not to mention miss much of what some someone may be implying. I love Peter and his playing... but if you can't hear and recognize more that one method of organizing tonality... who's problem is it.

When using line cliches for implying harmony or chords... again you need references from which your basing what changes you want the line cliche to imply.... if that's what you want.

There is always the old.... the tonality or everything or the tonal target approach. It all works, but there are more approaches to organization of what one plays. Most musicians... don't understand, they just play. It's not just minor 6th and 7th chords that have implications. Have a reference for whatever type of relationship your trying to understand and play.

Kirk's point about fake books is right... but is more from not understanding music. Fake books are not a transcribed performance... they are just a basic reference of how a specific version of the tune has been played. The changes and melody are very vanilla example that fit into the Form of the tune. Your job as a musician is to be able to recognize what the notation implies and might imply... and use you musicianship to make a performance.

If fake books were actually notated transcriptions... in detail etc... I don't believe many would be able to sight read through them. If one has problems just reading, hearing or using simple vanilla outlines of tune... in live performance. What would happen if real charts were thrown in front of you.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-29-2016, 11:50 AM

I'd say m7 is not tonic minor...in certain situations.

Other times, it most certainly is.

**christianm77** · 07-29-2016, 12:38 PM

JK points out that the points made in the video are subtle, more so than my initial (drunken) OP.

Learning to hear the difference between m6 and m7 is key. Many jazz students always play m7 without thinking. I remember Kreisberg has a similar rant - in this case regarding the Bbm chord in Days of Wine and Roses.

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-29-2016, 12:41 PM

I understand the point Peter makes in this video is mostly don't automatically assume that those sounds interchangeable and apply the same scale with m7 in it to m6 chord. He did say that m7 is not a tonic chord, but specifically for THIS tune, which is not named, since it's just a snippet in the middle, I guess... What tune are they discussing btw? But I don't think it works for any tune in minor key... I do play m7 as a a tonic chord in Summertime, for example, sounds good to me.

**grahambop** · 07-29-2016, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

I understand the point Peter makes in this video is mostly don't automatically assume that those sounds interchangeable and apply the same scale with m7 in it to m6 chord. He did say that m7 is not a tonic chord, but specifically for THIS tune, which is not named, since it's just a snippet in the middle, I guess... What tune are they discussing btw?

How Deep Is the Ocean.

I have stolen those nice descending chords he comps for the first few bars, very tasty.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-29-2016, 12:54 PM

Summertime? Got to do the descending cliche. Final A minor chord in a chord melody? Add 2.

x02415

**Generalmojo** · 08-01-2016, 02:25 PM

I teach this idea in a much simpler way to my students with some luck. Melodic Minor = Dorian with a natural 7. That's the m6 tonic sound. Harmonic minor is Aeolian with a natural 7. That's the m7 tonic sound. The natural 7s create a dominant V chord. Makes sense to me.

I have a method book coming out later this year and this idea of sorting out these sounds like this is gonna be volume II. So it goes a little deeper, but all the "math" adds up (and so do the sounds).

My question is if this makes sense to you guys.

Also - could it be My Funny Valentine?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**christianm77** · 08-01-2016, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Generalmojo

I teach this idea in a much simpler way to my students with some luck. Melodic Minor = Dorian with a natural 7. That's the m6 tonic sound. Harmonic minor is Aeolian with a natural 7. That's the m7 tonic sound. The natural 7s create a dominant V chord. Makes sense to me.

I have a method book coming out later this year and this idea of sorting out these sounds like this is gonna be volume II. So it goes a little deeper, but all the "math" adds up (and so do the sounds).

My question is if this makes sense to you guys.

Also - could it be My Funny Valentine?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah that makes sense. That's kind of how I understand it.

TBH, most of the time, dorians and melodic minors are used interchangeably in lines. I don't really see them as separate scales, unless you really want to express that natural 7th note as part of the harmony - which obviously like to do these days.

The main function of natural minor/harmonic minor is to get you into the minor chord via a V7b9(#9) tonality. My lines will freely mix these two scales - so I might play a Bo7 arpeggio but go up to a Bb and come down the natural minor. Very common in bop.

One of the important things about m7 as a default tonic function minor chord is that it kind of defines a sound world with a b7 in it. That can be really cool for certain moods, but m6 chords allow you to express a different, 'sadder' type of minor. It's important to hear both sounds, but if in doubt I will omit the 7th from a tonic minor chord allowing the soloist to make their own choice.

In fact the minor 6ht is a tricky one too - I have got told off in the past for using m6 chords inappropriately. Usually when they clash with melody, but iiim6 is a typical one. Be careful of that chord unless you are sure the key has moved to that chord (usually via a tonicisation)

I have heard that Bird was quite into accompanists playing plain minors. We are conditioned into thinking that we always have to make chords more fruity, but straight minors (and majors) are all you need sometimes.

**KirkP** · 08-01-2016, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I have heard that Bird was quite into accompanists playing plain minors. We are conditioned into thinking that we always have to make chords more fruity, but straight minors (and majors) are all you need sometimes.

That's good advice. When performing as accompanists our job is to listen to the soloist and make our harmonic choices compatible theirs. Sometimes their preceding notes will give you a clue to what's coming next, but if you're not sure, go with a "vanilla" chord.

**christianm77** · 08-01-2016, 05:19 PM

TBH it's more a problem IMO when playing with another guitar player than with a sax. Sax tends to shove guitar out of the way sonically. That said I know some sax players with very keen ears :-)

**PMB** · 08-01-2016, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Yeah that makes sense. That's kind of how I understand it.

TBH, most of the time, dorians and melodic minors are used interchangeably in lines. I don't really see them as separate scales, unless you really want to express that natural 7th note as part of the harmony - which obviously like to do these days.

The main function of natural minor/harmonic minor is to get you into the minor chord via a V7b9(#9) tonality. My lines will freely mix these two scales - so I might play a Bo7 arpeggio but go up to a Bb and come down the natural minor. Very common in bop.

One of the important things about m7 as a default tonic function minor chord is that it kind of defines a sound world with a b7 in it. That can be really cool for certain moods, but m6 chords allow you to express a different, 'sadder' type of minor. It's important to hear both sounds, but if in doubt I will omit the 7th from a tonic minor chord allowing the soloist to make their own choice.

In fact the minor 6ht is a tricky one too - I have got told off in the past for using m6 chords inappropriately. Usually when they clash with melody, but iiim6 is a typical one. Be careful of that chord unless you are sure the key has moved to that chord (usually via a tonicisation)

I have heard that Bird was quite into accompanists playing plain minors. We are conditioned into thinking that we always have to make chords more fruity, but straight minors (and majors) are all you need sometimes.

Pat Martino's lines are often made up from mixed minor tonalities, no doubt because he converts everything to minor. The various combinations of raised or lowered 6th and 7th degrees are always up for grabs as he seems to be more concerned with the demands of the line than strictly outlining the harmony at any given point.

**PMB** · 08-01-2016, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

I understand the point Peter makes in this video is mostly don't automatically assume that those sounds interchangeable and apply the same scale with m7 in it to m6 chord. He did say that m7 is not a tonic chord, but specifically for THIS tune, which is not named, since it's just a snippet in the middle, I guess... What tune are they discussing btw? But I don't think it works for any tune in minor key... I do play m7 as a a tonic chord in Summertime, for example, sounds good to me.

Really? I reckon the original m6 moving up a tone, e.g, A-6 / B-6(E9) / can't be beaten for the 'sad' quality mentioned in Christian's post. Maybe it's from backing too many divas on that tune in a faux-funky uptempo setting over generic ii-V-Is that's made me allergic to the tonic m7!

Reminds me of the joke, "How many singers does it take to sing Summertime? All of them, apparently".

**christianm77** · 08-01-2016, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by PMB

Really? I reckon the original m6 moving up a tone, e.g, A-6 / B-6(E9) / can't be beaten for the 'sad' quality mentioned in Christian's post. Maybe it's from backing too many divas on that tune in a faux-funky uptempo setting over generic ii-V-Is that's made me allergic to the tonic m7!

Reminds me of the joke, "How many singers does it take to sing Summertime? All of them, apparently".

I think I have the same allergy.

**princeplanet** · 08-02-2016, 09:09 AM

The cool thing about m6 as tonic minor is exploring the all powerful half diminished group for both the V7b9b13 as well as the m6. So against G7 - play Fm7b5 and against Cm6 play Am7b5. I have been working with creating various pentatonic PC's as well as chromatically embellished pentatonics for m7b5 (because straight arps are boring) and love the way you can "mirror" lines for D and T. Work up a tasty line for V7b9b15, then move it up a Maj 3rd for im6. Another one of those things I needed to work out for myself, and kicked myself for not realising it earlier.

Funny how I never came across that in books (or even on this forum)....

**christianm77** · 08-02-2016, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by PMB

Pat Martino's lines are often made up from mixed minor tonalities, no doubt because he converts everything to minor. The various combinations of raised or lowered 6th and 7th degrees are always up for grabs as he seems to be more concerned with the demands of the line than strictly outlining the harmony at any given point.

Tbh Everyone's minor key lines are made from mixed minor scales since like forever. You only make a point of playing a melodic minor when you want to put a harmonic* maj 7 on a minor, #4 on a dominant etc, or do some sort of modern intervallic stuff.

PMs approach is like the mirror image of Barry's - make everything on a minor rather than a dominant. Might be easier for guitar players. Ultimately, it's the same thing.

*i.e. not a passing tone.

**Reg** · 08-02-2016, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Generalmojo

I teach this idea in a much simpler way to my students with some luck. Melodic Minor = Dorian with a natural 7. That's the m6 tonic sound. Harmonic minor is Aeolian with a natural 7. That's the m7 tonic sound. The natural 7s create a dominant V chord. Makes sense to me.

I have a method book coming out later this year and this idea of sorting out these sounds like this is gonna be volume II. So it goes a little deeper, but all the "math" adds up (and so do the sounds).

My question is if this makes sense to you guys.

Also - could it be My Funny Valentine?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yea... those basic references have been around from the late 60's and early 70's... at least that's when I first ran into using the 6th or 13th as source for implying which minor is being used as the basic tonal reference for the I chord... the tonic.

Which obviously have other tonal implications... The aeolian - harmonic minor relationship has been around for ever, with use of MM as embellishment etc...

We as guitarist and generally a rhythm section player... well, that is part of our job to be aware of those references and the relationships which result and the possibilities that can develop etc.. standard modal interchange developments from creating relationships with different Reference.

I've posted on this approach years ago on this forum... obviously didn't do a good job explaining. Once your ears can hear and understand the relationships, the possibilities of where any tune can develop has many more options, not to mention you'll hear what and where a soloist might be heading etc..

**Reg** · 08-02-2016, 09:40 AM

I tend to hear most players using the -6th chord with reference to aeolian and harmonic minor, with MM as embellishment. And as Prince was saying... using as access point for using subs etc...

When, as mentioned, all the minors get thrown together, embellishment applications etc... it usually get vanilla and muddy.

Which is very common usage... by vanilla I'm implying Maj/Min functional reference, not modal interchange. (not wrong or bad etc...). It's one of those things, again we should be aware of as musicians...Jazz musicians. The results are different.