Peter Berstein - Minor 6th vs Minor 7th Sound

[christianm77]

Reg if by '...using the 6th or 13th as source for implying which minor is being used as the basic tonal reference for the I chord... the tonic.' as the fact that most jazz players hear a major 6th/13th over a minor chord creating a dorian/melodic minor sound as the tonic minor - well that's been the case since at least the 30s.

The b6 is pretty rare on the other hand. To me minor b6 chords tend to sound like 1st inversion major 9th chords.

[christianm77]

I tend to hear most players using the -6th chord with reference to aeolian and harmonic minor, with MM as embellishment. And as Prince was saying... using as access point for using subs etc...

When, as mentioned, all the minors get thrown together, embellishment applications etc... it usually get vanilla and muddy.

Which is very common usage... by vanilla I'm implying Maj/Min functional reference, not modal interchange. (not wrong or bad etc...). It's one of those things, again we should be aware of as musicians...Jazz musicians. The results are different.

Sorry Pat, Wes, Django and JS Bach. Yer vanilla and muddy. :-) I'm sure that's not what you mean.

To me there's a subtle but important distinction to be made between harmonic and melodic scale use.

Mixed use of minors is very common in pretty much all of the jazz I have transcribed, but b6 is generally an unstable/tonicising sound and 6 is generally a stable, tonic type of sound in jazz. If that makes any sense.

So these minor scales have specific functionality based on which notes in the scale are stable notes and which are unstable. A b6 is always restless. A 9th or major 7th, OTOH, can kind of be both depending. Dorian is static, Harmonic Minor contains several notes that demand resolution.

In fact these things are handled in a very intuitive way. But I prefer to focus on these elements as melodic tensions, rather than harmonic tensions, in this case, quite classical. b6 wants to go to 5, 7 wants to go to 1 and so on, regardless of chords etc. The harmonic movement is a by product of this melodic tension, which is in reference to the tonic triad or 6th chord. Barry Harris's harmonic teaching is based on this principle extended to many voices.

If we treat a scale harmonically, than its notes become potential harmony notes if they sound good - i.e. notes you can sit on. If we choose to sit on the 7th of C melodic minor over an F7 chord, we are dealing with that scale in a very different way to Django, who would probably have played that note in passing. I hear this is a more modern thing, but I'm sure as playing in C minor on F7 was a common practice by the 30's, surely someone back then MUST have sat on a B over an F7 chord at some point and thought - 'hey that sounds cool.' But maybe not.

(In other words, the #4 becomes a #11.)

(Obviously there are examples of 7#11 chords in the repertoire of the time. Not as I understand it derived from MM harmony, but just what happens when you harmonise an E melody note with a Bb7 chord, etc.)

In any case, I was listening to Lage Lund on Limehouse Blues - a very old tune with a #4 implied melodically on the IV7 chord by step - is a clear demonstration of current practice where the sound of the melodic minor (and it's modes) are made to 'pop out' over the chords through the repeated use of the characteristic notes. Once you can hear that sound, it just jumps out, right?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Mixed use of minors is very common in pretty much all of the jazz I have transcribed, but b6 is generally an unstable/tonicising sound and 6 is generally a stable, tonic type of sound in jazz. If that makes any sense.

Tonicising? That's a new word for me.

I guess anything can be a passing tone, but in this sort of line over a minor chord, I like the b6 as an upper neighbour, just because a half step sound more "upper neighbourly": 5 b6 (versus 6) 5 4 b3.

[christianm77]

Tonicising? That's a new word for me.

I guess anything can be a passing tone, but in this sort of line over a minor chord, I like the b6 as an upper neighbour, just because a half step sound more "upper neighbourly": 5 b6 (versus 6) 5 4 b3.

Sure, also in a jazz context, a b6 (#5) makes a good lower neighbour for the 6.

[Hep To The Jive]

Sure, also in a jazz context, a b6 (#5) makes a good lower neighbour for the 6.

You are not talking about min b6 chord as a tonic? That would be devious haha. In fact i would never call such a chord minor in the first place. That would be #9#5 no 3rd dom chord. At least how i would hear it.

[Hep To The Jive]

Really? I reckon the original m6 moving up a tone, e.g, A-6 / B-6(E9) / can't be beaten for the 'sad' quality mentioned in Christian's post. Maybe it's from backing too many divas on that tune in a faux-funky uptempo setting over generic ii-V-Is that's made me allergic to the tonic m7!

Reminds me of the joke, "How many singers does it take to sing Summertime? All of them, apparently".

Really. I would play, and usually do Am7/Bm7. Sure I could use m6 just like you said. Different mood, agreed. But either sounds good, it does not really matter to me that much.

[christianm77]

You are not talking about min b6 chord as a tonic? That would be devious haha. In fact i would never call such a chord minor in the first place. That would be #9#5 no 3rd dom chord. At least how i would hear it.

Heaven forfend.

[grahambop]

Really. I would play, and usually do Am7/Bm7. Sure I could use m6 just like you said. Different mood, agreed. But either sounds good, it does not really matter to me that much.

I think the original score had those m6 chords, so it's a nice way to capture the original mood of the piece.

[christianm77]

BTW - I am in love with PB's sound. No one else sounds like that - earthy yet singing and refined.

[PMB]

b6 is pretty rare on the other hand. To me minor b6 chords tend to sound like 1st inversion major 9th chords.

Agreed. Many chord books wont even list m7#5/b6 as a minor variant.

[PMB]

BTW - I am in love with PB's sound. No one else sounds like that - earthy yet singing and refined.

Pete's got an amazing touch on the instrument and that's a perfect description of his sound. Having said that, I've briefly played his Zeidler (albeit, upside down as I'm a lefty) and it's an incredible instrument that responds all over the neck.

[Hep To The Jive]

I think the original score had those m6 chords, so it's a nice way to capture the original mood of the piece.

I honestly dont remember seeing any charts of it with m6 as tonic chord, but I take your word for it.

I like to play this tune in a pop funky style, and m7 sounds more appropriate for that. If i to play it in early swng style, m6 would be obvious choice. In fact, for all my minor Gypsy/swing tunes or anything in that style I avoid m7 as main chord. I never analyze why, im not a theory geek, but it just doesnt sound right.

Also, one modern jazz tune that I really dig, Nica's Dream, I really prefer m6 as a main chord. Even though its prescribed to play m7 (maj7). Never sounded right. So Im doing Bbm6/Abm6. What do you guys think of this?

[PMB]

Also, one modern jazz tune that I really dig, Nica's Dream, I really prefer m6 as a main chord. Even though its prescribed to play m7 (maj7). Never sounded right. So Im doing Bbm6/Abm6. What do you guys think of this?

That makes sense, Hep. Nica's Dream has the tonic in the melody landing on a strong beat in bar 2 and it creates something of a clash with major 7th degree.

[christianm77]

That makes sense, Hep. Nica's Dream has the tonic in the melody landing on a strong beat in bar 2 and it creates something of a clash with major 7th degree.

When I play this tune I usually put the 7th in the octave below the melody - So, the voicing would go A Db F Bb

[PMB]

You could play Bbm/maj7 for a bar and then Bbm6. You hear the major equivalent all the time - major 7 followed by major 6. Or if you wanted to try something really different, the Chelsea Bridge subs: Eb9#11 for Bbm/maj7 to Db9#11 for Abm/maj7!

[Reg]

Reg if by '...using the 6th or 13th as source for implying which minor is being used as the basic tonal reference for the I chord... the tonic.' as the fact that most jazz players hear a major 6th/13th over a minor chord creating a dorian/melodic minor sound as the tonic minor - well that's been the case since at least the 30s.

The b6 is pretty rare on the other hand. To me minor b6 chords tend to sound like 1st inversion major 9th chords.

Hey Christian... sorry for not getting back earlier...

When I say using the maj6th for implying what the tonal reference, I mean most use a Min6th chord voicing with a maj 6th, maybe add the 9th, and then use functional guidelines from harmonic minor. The maj 6th is an embellishment. As with most tunes in minor, the basic reference for what is I or tonic minor is the VI- chord from the relative maj.

C-7 with the reference of Ebmaj being the relative maj. implies Aeolian... or at least the functional chordal movements usually use traditional functional harmonic movement as the basic reference. That doesn't mean b6 or b13th has to be used... but the organizational aspects used are from VI- and that is the functional basic starting harmonic reference. The voice leading and melodic whatever generally are not the starting reference. A tune or improve can still be based or use as source for playing any melodic resolution or movement... but the harmonic functional movement would still be based on VI- as being the I chord.

When Dorian is used there is usually different harmonic organization. This last week I play with latin band. The montunos and functional movement for most of the tunes was based on Vi- with Harmonic Min. relationships as basic reference etc... Very different from II V montunos with Dorian and modal harmonic movement.

I'll try and make another post and show some examples, it's not just what's played, it's also about what's implied. (in reference to your 2nd quote) That is what I mean.