Moving to New York as a Jazz Musician

[pamosmusic]

And pizza in New York is great. But the bagels are the real thing. I think New York pizza is the best pizza but other places have their own thing.

Bagels?

You can’t go much further than north Jersey and get anything even remotely comparable to the real thing.

[John A.]

Just out of curiosity I looked at real estate around NYC. The cheapest place I could find in Washington Heights was just under 500k. Wow. I looked at Queens and Harlem. Most of the places in my price range were apartments that are a little larger than my shed, lol. I guess it's a different way of life there. Probably not one I could acclimate very well to but I suppose it has it's upsides, like decent pizza within walking distance. I'd have to leave the state of Texas to find that.

$500k for anything anywhere in NYC (let alone Manhattan) is cheap. But not needing a car (and mostly being better off without one) somewhat offsets the housing costs. Especially now that you can order so much online for the same price as you can anywhere in the country, the overall cost of living gap doesn't have to be that big. I have within a block of my front door a great pizza place, 5 decent restaurants, two of which host live jazz (but no decent Chinese, daganabbit!), 2 supermarkets, and a book store, and another stretch of restaurants and shops and a subway station around 5 blocks away.

The neighborhood is more like a small town than a big City, despite the urban density of it. That's more common than most non-NY'ers probably imagine. The level of mis(dys)information about life in NYC I've encountered in other parts of the country is astonishing. But if you're use to space, and driving everywhere, and not being cheek by jowl with other people all the time, it can be rough. Even for a native like me, I sometimes just want all those people to just get the f*ck out of my way.

[pamosmusic]

The neighborhood is more like a small town than a big City, despite the urban density of it. That's more common than most non-NY'ers probably imagine. The level of mis(dys)information about life in NYC I've encountered in other parts of the country is astonishing. But if you're use to space, and driving everywhere, and not being cheek by jowl with other people all the time, it can be rough. Even for a native like me, I sometimes just want all those people to just get the f*ck out of my way.

Man this is so true ... I grew up in a tiny town and knew most everybody because I was the fourth generation on my dad's side to grow up there.

But short of that, Bay Ridge Brooklyn is the most "everyone knows your name" place I've ever lived. And lots of neighborhoods you don't really have to live cheek by jowl with other people, but ... D train commute into Manhattan at 7:45 am?

Yikes.

[AllanAllen]

And pizza in New York is great. But the bagels are the real thing. I think New York pizza is the best pizza but other places have their own thing.

Bagels?

You can’t go much further than north Jersey and get anything even remotely comparable to the real thing.

Man, I was all excited for NYC pizza when I went there and it was pretty much Pizza Hut's Big New Yorker.

It's worlds above the pizza I get now, gas station pizza.... living in rural USA.

[John A.]

Man this is so true ... I grew up in a tiny town and knew most everybody because I was the fourth generation on my dad's side to grow up there.

But short of that, Bay Ridge Brooklyn is the most "everyone knows your name" place I've ever lived. And lots of neighborhoods you don't really have to live cheek by jowl with other people, but ... D train commute into Manhattan at 7:45 am?

Yikes.

Commutes can be a drag, by far the most unpleasant aspect of NYC life for me (typically about an hour door to door), but I think I'd still rather commute by mass transit than drive (except when I can't get a seat). The shift to WFH/Hybrid has greatly changed that for many (I'm currently hybrid); a big boon to quality of life.

[Hep To The Jive]

And pizza in New York is great. But the bagels are the real thing. I think New York pizza is the best pizza but other places have their own thing.

Bagels?

You can’t go much further than north Jersey and get anything even remotely comparable to the real thing.

True dat, the bagels are incomparable in NYC. Pizza not sure, I had a real Italian pizza here in Shanghai, made by real Italian family, amazing.

But you can go further than north Jersey and find what NYC never had which is a shame- The Waffle House! And Waffle House is the best thing since sliced bagel. Laugh at me all you want, WH is a great gift of America!

[pcjazz]

Bagels?

You can’t go much further than north Jersey and get anything even remotely comparable to the real thing.

Montreal!

[joe2758]

My two favorite pizza places are in Ocean City NJ. One place that ties them in New Haven.

[John A.]

True dat, the bagels are incomparable in NYC. Pizza not sure, I had a real Italian pizza here in Shanghai, made by real Italian family, amazing.

But you can go further than north Jersey and find what NYC never had which is a shame- The Waffle House! And Waffle House is the best thing since sliced bagel. Laugh at me all you want, WH is a great gift of America!

I went to a Waffle House for the first time when I was in Georgia last year. It was terrible. They managed to f*uck up eggs, toast, and coffee.

[Hep To The Jive]

I went to a Waffle House for the first time when I was in Georgia last year. It was terrible. They managed to f*uck up eggs, toast, and coffee.

Sorry to hear that. I never had a bad experience myself. Two things, pecan waffles and grits, can't find in NYC, Waffle House always gets it right, in my experience of course.

Actually, the best food I ever had in US was in the south. South Carolina, Goergia... NYC not so much.

[John A.]

Montreal!

Montreal bagels are different. NY and Montreal styles are each authentic to the parts of Eastern Europe the immigrant bakers came from. Regarding NY bagels, I hate to say it but it's something of a dying breed. It used to be that good real ones were everywhere (diners, supermarkets, bodegas/delis, etc.), but now it's really only in specialty bagel shops, and more often than not other places serve rolls with holes.

Regarding pizza, I would say the thing that's particular to NY (and parts of NJ and a few other places) is the classic foldable slice sold out of casual storefronts. Walking into some joint in any neighborhood and getting something really good for the price of a token (okay, a tap these days) is still a thing. but not so much in other places. OTOH More authentically Italian whole pies with charred thin crusts, fresh mozzarella, fresh toppings, etc., are not really hard to find elsewhere anymore. The US is in general a lot more foody than it was a generation or two ago.

[pamosmusic]

Montreal bagels are different. NY and Montreal styles are each authentic to the parts of Eastern Europe the immigrant bakers came from. Regarding NY bagels, I hate to say it but it's something of a dying breed. It used to be that good real ones were everywhere (diners, supermarkets, bodegas/delis, etc.), but now it's really only in specialty bagel shops, and more often than not other places serve rolls with holes.

Regarding pizza, I would say the thing that's particular to NY (and parts of NJ and a few other places) is the classic foldable slice sold out of casual storefronts. Walking into some joint in any neighborhood and getting something really good for the price of a token (okay, a tap these days) is still a thing. but not so much in other places. OTOH More authentically Italian whole pies with charred thin crusts, fresh mozzarella, fresh toppings, etc., are not really hard to find elsewhere anymore. The US is in general a lot more foody than it was a generation or two ago.

Yeah and it’s tougher than that for bagels … the super specialty ones are sometimes not that good. Knowing where to go out deep in South Brooklyn is where it’s at.

H&L Bagels on 89 and 3 in Bay Ridge is the best bagel I’ve ever had. No idea if it’s still open.

[RLetson]

Big cities with big and/or recent immigrant influxes offer the most interesting food in the US--and it eventually, gradually filters out to the rest of the country. When we moved to outstate Minnesota nearly 50 years ago, the only Chinese food available came from a family that had learned to mimic Chung King canned chow mein--they were proud to have figured out what Americans liked. There was pizza and red-sauce Italian, but otherwise it was the narrowest kind of "American" cuisine. (We'd been spoiled by having access to Chicago's amazing food scene for more than a decade.)

Eventually we got more authentic (but still hybridized) Asian food, as the Vietnam diaspora spread beyond the cities. Subsequent waves (driven by poverty, wars, disasters, famines, and such) brought Mexican, Central American, Afghan, Ethiopian, north Indian, and now Somali food--mostly to the Twin Cities, though even our small city has a surprising numberr of little Somali places. We also have two Indian restaurants and a pretty authentic gyros place (run by a Bangladeshi family). Is this a great country or what.

Anyhow, music aside, a European looking for a (literal) taste of America can find it in a lot places. NYC might have the most concentrated, intense, and challenging version of what makes us us, but I wouldn't throw stones at the Twin Cities, Chicago, Seattle, Pittsburgh, or Portland (to name towns I have some knowledge of).

And FWIW, I've spent enough time in London and Rome (with just a taste of Paris) to see the difference between visiting a place and settling down there for an extended stay--living the life. You have to really like big-city life to live in those towns.

[rpjazzguitar]

When I first moved to the Bay Area in 72 there was, as far as I knew, only one bagel place, somewhere out on Geary near the ocean.

Now, they're all over and some of them have pretty good bagels. Not as good as NYC, but they're bagels.

Storefronts with pizza by the slice never caught on. There have been a couple in Berkeley that were NYC style places. There are a great many places where you can buy a whole pie. Quality varies. Some are pretty good, although not really NYC in style.

In the Brooklyn of my youth, I lived within a pretty short walk of four different storefront pizza places and they were all comparable. My favorite, in case anybody is here from the old neighborhood, was Bella Donna on Kings Highway near E.19th St. Right near Sid's studio.

[Hep To The Jive]

I visited NYC last Feb, just for a week, and I was ordering 'Chinese' food every other day there. Sounds funny, but westernized Chinese is loved for a reason. Now I don't wanna crap on the country that host me and I saw nothing but good vibes from local people, but the authentic Chinese food is... special.

[John A.]

When I first moved to the Bay Area in 72 there was, as far as I knew, only one bagel place, somewhere out on Geary near the ocean.

Now, they're all over and some of them have pretty good bagels. Not as good as NYC, but they're bagels.

Storefronts with pizza by the slice never caught on. There have been a couple in Berkeley that were NYC style places. There are a great many places where you can buy a whole pie. Quality varies. Some are pretty good, although not really NYC in style.

In the Brooklyn of my youth, I lived within a pretty short walk of four different storefront pizza places and they were all comparable. My favorite, in case anybody is here from the old neighborhood, was Bella Donna on Kings Highway near E.19th St. Right near Sid's studio.

I lived in Berkeley 72-3 (I was 10). Going a year without decent pizza was tough. I remember Shakey's being the only place we could find, and blecch! But it was the first Mexican food we ever had (there was almost none in NY then) and it was great. Chinese food was really good, too. I think the only bagels we could get were supermarket frozen ones.

[arnie65]

I would not recommend moving to NYC at this present time, it is super expensive, crime is on the uprise, and a dozen other reasons. I would suggest Boston would be a better fit, it has as many or more jazz clubs than NYC, and it would be a lot easier to get around and meet other musicians, you have Berkley College of Music there too. Just my two cents, as an ex-new yorker.



Cheers,
Arnie...

[rpjazzguitar]

I lived in Berkeley 72-3 (I was 10). Going a year without decent pizza was tough. I remember Shakey's being the only place we could find, and blecch! But it was the first Mexican food we ever had (there was almost none in NY then) and it was great. Chinese food was really good, too. I think the only bagels we could get were supermarket frozen ones.

Back then, I don't think there was a bagel place in the East Bay. There was the one in SF, iirc.

I think the pizza by the slice places opened up more like late 70's. Blondie's on Telegraph Avenue and another on Shattuck.

Lender's frozen bagels were in the supermarkets but they were beneath contempt, IMO.

Mexican food was rare in NYC, but there was a place in Brooklyn Heights and another in Manhatten. The one in Brooklyn had food that tasted like the Swanson frozen Mexican dinner, which was available at Bohack.

It has just gotten better and better in the Bay Area. And, it started out pretty good.

[Fusionshred]

Sooner or later… every conversation turns to food!

[pamosmusic]

I would suggest Boston would be a better fit, it has as many or more jazz clubs than NYC …

my dude … citation needed.

[lammie200]

, but the authentic Chinese food is... special.

My experience is that it is a lot less salty than Westernized Chinese food. They rely on the actual food to make the dish appealing.

[arnie65]

my dude … citation needed.

Lol, alright the big name clubs are in NYC, but there's quite a bit of smaller clubs in Boston....



Arnie...

[DawgBone]

Sooner or later… every conversation turns to food!

It's not high on my list of priorities but the only edible pizza joint I've found down here is run by Mexicans and edible is about the extent of my compliments on it's flavor. A decade without a decent slice. When I lived in St. Pete I had four high quality joints within walking distance. Actually two of them were a literal stones throw, like across the street from me. I'm thinking about moving back but going to south FL this time. Half of NY is there already, lol.

Down here it's brisket, which, depending on who ran the smoker, is either world class food or badly done roast beef. People were ranting about Buc-ee's the other day on X. I hate that dumb place. 150 gas pumps and a shopping mall environment to get your fuel, cigs, and beer don't make sense to me. Someone posted a pic of a dude slicing brisket and the cutting board was nearly bone dry. That's roast beef, not brisket. Grease should be running everywhere if it's done right. Just cause it has the pink smoke ring doesn't mean anything. Pretty brisket ain't always good. My neighbor is a native Texan and bitches about "greasy" brisket. I think some people like poorly done brisket and shopping mall gas stations I guess but I suppose the tell is he has bro country on his radio 24/7.

[Jonah]

Like many others, I assume, I've often thought of moving to New York to be at the center of the jazz scene. As someone living in Ireland, the scene is quite small and we don't get a lot of 'big name' jazz musicians coming here.
A question to people who perhaps live or have lived in New York City, would you recommend moving there as a jazz musician? Even for a few months. And if not, where else would you recommend! I'm planning on moving away for a while after I finish my degree in jazz. Thanks!

From Ireland you can actually go to some European city. Antwerp, Amsterdam, Copenhagen and others... maybe they can't compare to NY but they have quite active jazz life, lots of young players, clubs, jams, and great players visit these cities(or around) quite often.
I do not say they are much safer or less expensive (you know many things are going in the world now, everything changes)... but it seems more achievable and easier to get around than jump into NY.

[John A.]

Mexican food was rare in NYC, but there was a place in Brooklyn Heights and another in Manhatten. The one in Brooklyn had food that tasted like the Swanson frozen Mexican dinner, which was available at Bohack.

There’s a Mexican place on West 4th St. called Tio Pepe that has been there since I was a kid. IIRC, it gets mentioned in the Suze Rotolo book (which has a lot of detail about the Village), so maybe even as early as the 50’s, but it’s the only place I remember until Mexican places started popping all over in the ‘80s.

Bohack is long gone (I think since the late 70s).

It has just gotten better and better in the Bay Area. And, it started out pretty good

That is certainly the reputation.