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I can’t comment on NY vs Boston club counts (though I’m skeptical, given the Steady supply of Berklee grads I see here). But on the crime thing, nope. Crime is not rising.
Originally Posted by arnie65
It spiked during Covid, but has dropped back to pre-Covid levels, and by most metrics are falling again (e.g., record low # of shootings), even in the subways, which get a lot of media attention.
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12-05-2025 09:12 AM
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NY pizza? Maybe I’m missing something. I mean it wasn’t bad at all, just nothing special. Perhaps my expectations had been raised too high. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I’m aware this might get me banned from ever visiting ever again. But as I can’t afford it anyway, I’m going to go all in.
I quite like that I got one with sprouts on, that said. I am an advocate of sprouts, properly cooked.
Bagels are very good.
I also got a very good curry, which I wasn’t expecting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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There are plenty of bad pizza joints, so it's possible. But I'd have to know where you ate to figure out whether to ban you. The positive comment about sprouts is troubling ... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Not as troubling as the after effects. Originally Posted by John A.
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I suspect pizza around the world has improved since the NYC pizza trope started and they're now riding a wave. Or, I grew up in the Detroit Metro area and then moved to Chicago, so I've been surrounded by great pizza my whole life and don't know how bad it can be out there. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Went down to Alabama to see family and I was very excited to go to Buc-ee's and get a hat or something, I like the logo and the signs are funny "Next Buc-ee's 645 miles, you can hold it" Originally Posted by DawgBone
Needless to say, we stepped into that indoor state fair which was completely packed and regretted it. Hit the bathrooms, which were so busy they had someone directing you to stalls. Ate our bag lunches in the parking lot and kept driving. I wish more places sold DEF right at the pump.
It was run well for an extremely busy gas station / tourist attraction. I just don't need that mix.
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Awful lot of small clubs in New York too. You can hear killer jazz at random restaurants in neighborhoods most people never go to. It’s everywhere. If New York is not for you, all good, but it won’t be for the dearth of jazz venues. That’s for sure. Originally Posted by arnie65
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I figured I would just comment on the clubs thing as a reflection on the statistical accuracy of that comment as a whole. Originally Posted by John A.
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What kind of sprouts are we talking about? Originally Posted by John A.
I feel like the only green that is appropriate to see on a pizza is basil.
Our spot of choice was espresso pizzeria on 95 and 5th Ave in Brooklyn, right outside the stairs down to the last stop on the Brooklyn R Train. Absolute hole in the wall, but man … I got a margherita there and my dad called it “the best food I’ve ever had.”
Of the famous spots, I like Spumoni Gardens. We used to take the B1 bus from bay ridge to Coney Island, hop off on the stop outside Spumoni Gardens, grab pizza at the window, and be back at the bus stop in time for the next one.
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I just don't get the attraction.They have one down in New Braunfels and now are building another one just down the road from me here. When I'm driving I like to find those small joints halfway between major cities where there are four pumps and maybe a couple locals there. Get in and out real quick and maybe find some good fried chicken or deli food. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
When we went to Arkansas recently we got into west AR and stopped at this dump for fuel. Sign on the door says "pull your pants up or don't come inside, You can take your saggin' ass somewhere else" which was all the more ironic considering the dude at the counter was a Hindu owner and we got eyeballed by a geriatric hick at the pump. The rest of the customers looked like they were stocking up on supplies before a weekend meth binge, LOL. Of course dude I was driving with wanted to stick to the mega gas stations after that but I like the parts of the US you don't get to see using boring interstates.
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Peppers, asparagus, artichoke, capers, fennel all seem legit to me. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
My local fave is called Frescos, on 187th. Great crust and variety og styles and toppings in both slices and whole pies. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I think the only one of the famous Brooklyn spots I've been to is Grimaldi's (exit visas from Manhattan can be tough to come by), which I thought was very good. For slices, I guess I'd say Joe's (I work near the one on Fulton and go there when the lines aren't too crazy). Whole pies, I'm happy to make the trip to John's on Bleecker, Sottocasa in Harlem, or Patsy's in Harlem. There's a place in the Village called Tre Giovanni which is excellent. They make a pie with tuna, onions, and capers, which sounds weird, but is actually really delicious. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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These guys are all over YouTube with their "no-flop jalop even distribush" slices. I have never been there. When I lived in NYC it was back in the days when the Ray's, Original Ray's, Old Ray's, New Ray's, Ray-O-Vac, Ray of Sunshine, X-Ray's, etc. pizza wars were full-on robot chubby. It was heated and reheated.
SF has most, if not all, the varieties now. The last to show was probably Detroit-style. There are about 3-4 proprietors of that type now. Started seeing that style come to SF in the late 2010s from what I recall. SF also has many variety's of bagel shops, too. Of course, everything is a lot less dense than NYC so you don't see pizza and bagel shops on every block.
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In my days at JHS 167, Rays Pizza at 76th and third was the spot (eventually that became Ray Bari's Pizza) and in my University days at NYU it was Stromboli's on University Place or Ray's Pizza on Sixth Avenue. I worked for Arinells Pizza in Berkeley (The first NY style Pizza in the Bay area) and I was the opening manager for Blondie's Pizza in Berkeley. I also worked for Round table Pizza, arguably the best of the homegrown California Pizza chains. I went on to open 3 Pizza restaurants of my own (in California and Oregon), all doing NY style pizza. Pizza put me through Law School and gave me the capital to become a real estate investor (which made being a pro musician workable). You could say that I owe it all to pizza. Originally Posted by lammie200
Today, we have NY style pizza all over the western USA and many other styles of pizza have also proliferated. IMO, most are not that good and one has to search to find the good ones. I like NY Pizza, Detroit style Pizza, Chicago Deep dish pizza and genuine Neapolitan style pizza (which is different from the round NY style pizza that is often called "Neapolitan"). My preference is for plain cheese pizza, but I can see how people like the various creative toppings that have become in style. Sprouts? Why not?
Bagels? I have started to see genuine NY style bagels here in the west and that is good. For the last 50 years since I moved out west, the bagels have been pretty weak.
I started life in Philadelphia. While Philly Cheesesteaks and even Italian Hoagies have in some places, been decent here in the west, I have never had a good Philadelphia style soft pretzel or Philadelphia style Italian water ices outside of Philly. For those of you who have never had those things, you don't know what you are missing!
Hot dogs are another food that is very different depending on region. My favorite dogs are Sabretts (a NY company), but Vienna Beef (from Chicago) is also quite excellent. I am good with NY Style (mustard, onions and sourkraut), Philly Style (mustard and relish) and Chicago style (all kinds of toppings including some relish that by it's color looks kind of toxic).
Back to pizza, the best I ever had came from a place in New Haven Connecticut called Frank Pepes.
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To be clear … I am very much okay with all varieties of pizza. Even dominoes. But most things claiming to be NY style pizza are just big slices or something. Its different in New York and New York is my favorite but other pizza is great.
Again — bagels are different.
there are very good bagels elsewhere, but they’re few and far between and they’ll be their own thing.
As John says … even some New York bagels aren’t cutting it any more.
I went to Murray’s twice (only twice) and both times in ordered a bagel with butter. Both times I asked for it toasted and they snarked me up and down for it and pointed to their gimmicky shirts that said “no you can’t get it toasted” or whatever and both times I opened that foil up to an ice cold bagel with hard ice cold butter on it. Both times I took it back and was like “I’m not an idiot, I know you have this whole no toasting thing, but that’s because they’re supposed to be warm when you sell them.”
Tried it the second time just to be fair. Same deal. Never went back.
At my spot in bay ridge I’d go and order whatever bagel was steaming up the case at the moment. Usually I had a few choices.
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I grew up with NYC pizza and I'm a big fan.
But, the classic NYC slice didn't have toppings. It was simple, fast and cheap. Delicious too.
That said, good pizza here in Californa is often made with a number of ingredients, piled high, and isn't really the same thing.
It's sacriligious for a New Yorker, but the best pizza I ever had was the sausage deep dish at Uno's on Lombard in San Francisco. Perfect, except it should have included a visit to a cardiologist. I think somebody earlier in this thread (or did I see it elsewhere?) hated Uno's in SF, but I thought that one pizza was it.
I can get a good bagel here in California, but I prefer them in NYC. My favorite place to get a fully dressed bagel is on Atlantic Avenue either at Court St or maybe it was a block up toward the water.
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SFAIK (or at least remember) you could always ask for pepperoni, onions, peppers, sausage on a slice or get a pie with add-ons. All the slice joints also all made sausage with peppers and onions sandwiches, and had Italian ices in the summer. Nowadays, places all have pre-made pies with toppings and warm up slices from those, and that's somewhat more recent, but it's been a thing for a long time. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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My favorite joke (which isn't really a joke but a Profound Truth):
Pizza is like sex--when it's good, it's very, very good. And when it's bad--it's still pretty good.
But serially, I've had the good fortune to eat actual Italian pizza in actual Italy (spent my junior year in Rome and revisited a couple times), and to find equally good pizza in (of all places) Aalborg, Denmark (1979). In fact, anywhere Italians have resettled in Europe there's good pizza. The biggest change we noticed in our last visit (2009) was that every informal eatery offered sheet pizza cut into squares. Still very good, just not like the 12-inch rounds I remembered from '64. Stateside, in grad school, we got Uno's Chicago style at a way-downstate branch called Due's. Not the same as the ur-pizza I had in Rome in 1964, but still more than pretty good.*
Same with Indian food--we ate wonderful Indian everywhere we traveled in Europe except Italy, where it was superflous. And of course we learned to eat Indian in Chicago. Is this still a great country or what.
* Interesting cross-cultural tidbit: In Rome in 1964, the only place to find burgers, as far as we knew, was at a big American-style bowling alley/restaurant in the northern suburbs, where the locals got theirs as separate components (bun, patty, dabs of catchup and mustard) on a plate and ate them with knife and fork, dipping the bun/meat bites in the condiments. We assembled those components and ate them with our hands, which drew strange looks.
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In the classic NY Pizza by the slice operation, there were two pies always available ("Neapolitan" thin crust and "Sicilian" Deep dish thick crust) and plain cheese was sold by the slice. Toppings would be added for a reheat (at extra cost) The toppings offered were Pepperoni, Sausage, Mushrooms (canned), onions, green peppers (canned), anchovies and extra cheese. Often on the menu would be calzones (which never had sauce in them), hero sandwiches and other Italian dishes. Italian ices were often served as well (though very different from the Philadelphia variety). Originally Posted by John A.
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That was probably Famous Ray's. Or it could have been the Original Famous Ray's - I don't recall. Also in the pizza wars when I lived there. Closed about 15 years ago. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Last edited by lammie200; 12-05-2025 at 06:50 PM.
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There was another Ray's on 7th Ave somewhere near 14th Street that used to take slices off the counter, throw more cheese on them, throw them into the oven for a reheat, and then serve them to customers. My cousin would specifically request that they do not throw more cheese on his, but they would do it anyway. Then he would have a monstrous fit while eating it. Nothing like a stressful slice experience. I didn't much care for that Ray's myself. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I'm thinking aspiring jazz musicians will be eating instant ramen...
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I respect your purism. Good margarita IS perfect in the way any classic dish is. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
OTOH upsetting Italians about their cuisine is something I regard as a moral duty. Hawaiian pizza all the way.
However, there's a limit that hipster pizza joints were out of control about six or seven years ago. Brussel sprouts are far from the strangest thing I've had on a pizza.
In London there are now restaurants specialising in New York and Detroit style pizza, distinct from the Italian style places. In a way this is cool, in another it's a bit sad. Part of the joy of travelling is find local variations. Now everywhere resembles everywhere else. Trends catch on very quickly internationally. There are still things that are specific to the country (like half and half - we just don't have that here) - but not so many.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-05-2025 at 08:47 PM.
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big spender Originally Posted by rictroll
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You could, but you didn’t. Originally Posted by John A.
I recall the sandwiches from the first time I went to the Village. Never saw them in Brooklyn. But the Brooklyn places had Calzone. It was fifty cents when a slice was fifteen.
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It doesn’t have to be like that. You can have a square job and still play jazz. After all, Wes and Tal always had real jobs. Originally Posted by rictroll
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