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When a pianist or drummer hits so effing hard & loud, I just can't play. I freeze, I tense up, I can't audiate, I make mistakes, etc. I literally cannot play any of my lines, and I sound like a teenager that just learned the pentatonic scale for the first time. My weekly jam is at a community club (not an open mic), so there's no need for monitors cos it's just the few of us in a medium sized room. But jeez louise... There are some players who show up and play so GD loud it throws me off. Is tensing up normal when there's a crazy loud rhythm section behind you? How do you deal with them loud players? It's like they're not interested in listening and just wanna play above everybody.
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01-25-2025 07:17 AM
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i love playing loud and i love loud drummers if they swing hard. everybody used to play so much louder. lester probably had a tone as huge as a house.
roy haynes ftw!
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Is there an opportunity to talk with the group and talk about this? Yes, it's an opportunity for everyone to learn group dynamics (on many levels) but it's also, ideally, the chance to explore broadening our individual styles to create a collective musical experience.
Playing too loud is not musical if you're not making music. All members of the band are there to contribute. Sometimes it's hard to make the switch from practice room to interactive space. It might be good to be reminded of this, that they too, are deprived of why they're there, if there is no "group".
But sometimes (not infrequently) this is a difficult transition for many beginner players, and sometimes you can learn that there are just people that it's unhealthy and non productive to play with. This happens on many levels right up to the summit of the mountain. As a matter of fact, I was just talking with a friend who IS a player at the highest level. I asked him what the biggest change he felt having a working band that is the end of his booking and money worries. He didn't cite the fame, the recognition, the new house he can now buy, or awards that put him into the status of "a household name". No, he said the greatest thing about "making it" was being able to turn down work; not taking gigs with people he didn't feel happy making new music with.
Is there a bass player who might want to work with you one on one? Can you imagine a trio of some sort that you can put together and find a space to practice together? I've learned more than I ever could have in school by finding partners to play with. Time, feel, dynamics, listening, new ideas you pass to one another through music and listening... you can find this all in a good duo. Use this to create a good trio. Add a soloist and you've got a quartet, and you've all learned to appreciate the value of each member.
Sometimes you need to find the initiative ...to leave, so you can find the initiative to play.
It's a good discussion to have with all your fellow band mates. If you learn something, it's a win.
Good luck!
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I mean there's loud and swinging and then there's soft and swinging, and then there's not swinging which is always bad.
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This is a good question, and particularly pertinent for casual occasions like jam sessions.
I go to jazz jam sessions frequently, mostly open jams held several times a month at various local venues. It's a mixed bag. Some people are self-centered and just want to get in their licks, and they tend to play loud (mostly guitarists with some rock in their background!). But overall, there is an atmosphere of mutual consideration, taking turns, minding one's volume. Half decent drummers know when to lay low or when to dig in, horn players with some ensemble experience should know when to tone it down and crank it. One trumpeter, who always played super loud, started using a mute and their playing was so beautiful. So I think this is a matter of social etiquette and the experience and expectations of the participants. How to deal with people in a specific setting who happen to have poor manners, I cannot say. Maybe find another more amiable jam?
Sometimes, intervention helps. When I first started going to these jams years ago, I was inattentive to others and the overall sound of the music, just waiting my turn to play. One night, a pro bass player showed up. Initially, he was just listening. At one point, the bass player on stage was taking their solo. Normally, it's just bass and drums with some very light, if any, punctuation by the pianist. But that night, the two guitarists on stage were comping quite loudly (yes, I was one of them!). The pro bassist stood up and bellowed, "GUITARS!!" That was all I needed, and from then on I was much more attentive to what others are doing on stage and how what I'm playing fits in and contributes to the overall sound. Sometimes this means sitting out or laying low. Ultimately, I think it's a learned behavior that comes from regular real world participation. I'm not suggesting that you yell at the others, but maybe take notice of the social dynamics in a session and make some suggestions when the opportunity arrises to discuss such things among players.
Of the five venues that hold regular jazz jam sessions in which I participate, two of them are hosted. One of those, the host is a pianist and they play a tune with the bassist and drummer, and then begin inviting those in attendance up on stage to do a tune. Over the course of the three hour session, he manages who plays with who, and at times offers some constructive advice when needed or solicited. This can include suggestion about dynamics. The other hosted session, the host plays a tune with their piano trio and then invites others up to join them, but this one has less intervention, and sometimes the trio will cede their seats to others who play the same instrument. The other sessions are self-managed more or less. In the several years that I have been going to these jams, a few times I was asked to turn down a bit. No drama, just a polite suggestion, to which complied. I think that if we're willing to accept that others may need some guidance, and if they're willing to take well-intended guidance, it creates a culture of mutual respect. Perhaps at your regular jam sessions, you could all agree to designate a rotating host?
In any case, I wish you all the best and keep at it. Jams are great learning occasions.
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That’s because they’re not interested in listening and just wanna play above everybody.
Originally Posted by brent.h
Actually, that’s only part of the problem. More than a few musicians have some degree of hearing loss and play louder to be able to hear themselves better. But I think the biggest problem is that it’s harder to maintain great tone and technique when playing softly. Speed, consistency and accuracy at low volumes all demand better chops - strength, control, etc. This is especially true for drummers, but it applies to all the instruments I play (which includes drums, sax, trumpet, bass, vibes, flute, piano, and guitar).
It’s really hard to build and maintain chops on brass and reeds, and I never got past being able to play trumpet or sax “well enough” because it simply takes too much work. I just needed to understand the instruments so I knew what was reasonable to expect from them - and it did help me develop broader harmonic, rhythmic, and melodic approaches to the guitar. I could hold my own, but I had to push far too much and barely kept up. I obviously only did this with friends, only on a few tunes, and not at any serious jams.
Not everybody played loudly in the old days, djg. We used to go to the Village Vanguard to hear Thad & Mel on Monday nights. It’s a small room for a big band, but those guys were so well controlled that it wasn’t horribly loud. We once went in ‘73 after a long day and a big dinner, and my wife actually fell asleep at the table. Cecil Bridgewater introduced his then wife Dee Dee (who was in her early 20s and just beginning her career), and my wife slept through her tunes.
Most of the greats we love have / had excellent control over their volume. Bird used to practice sustaining a note accurately while making it louder and softer. We caught Mel Torme at Jazz Alley in DC years ago and were close enough to the trio backing him to talk to the drummer. He was so light and controlled that you could have had a conversation with him while he played. Volume is an expressive tool that has to be under control to be effective. Loud is often great, but it’s only one end of a wide dynamic spectrum. Your chops have to be equally tight and precise at any volume - and that takes serious work and practice.
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Ask them if they think you are so loud that they can't hear themselves. Originally Posted by brent.h
And if there's more than one, tell them to take turns going to take a listen in the middle of the audience space to check the balance. Actually a good thing for every member to do because members being too loud is just one of the possible problems with the balance of a group.
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I might ask them just to come down. Originally Posted by brent.h
“Hey can you come down when I start my solo?”
I play with a sort of weird funk jazz thing and it gets crazzzzyyyy loud and I’ll play a bar or two when my solo comes to make sure they know it’s mine and then just lay out … force those fools to come down to me.
I was at a session last night and waited to come in until the horns stopped playing counter melodies or the pianist stopped comping. Which means I played my two chorus solo and laid out the rest of the time.
Guitarist at a jam session … kind of an afterthought.
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Not sure … maybe? But they were dynamic and for a guitar player that would be the issue. We can crank the amp to get the baseline volume up, but guitar has such a narrow dynamic range that we need everyone else to really respond or it’ll be boring and loud and no one will hear us. Originally Posted by djg
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i suppose you must figure out if this is a mental issue (for example, a friend's daughter stops playing automatically if she makes the slightest error, almost out of her control right), or if there is a legitimate issue of them just playing so loud that you don't want to play because you are not inspired to make a sound. Your self-deprecating description, which i totally can relate to, suggests to me that you are blaming yourself. It is highly possible that their playing style or approach just does not inspire you, so you do not play. I hope you overcome this, in fact, I know you can. It is just a question of finding the answer.
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I prefer playing without a drummer, or if there must be a drummer, I prefer one who uses brushes only. Sure, with an electric guitar, I have a volume knob and can compete, but that is a competition that I am not interested in winning.
The volume problem is always big with unskilled players who cannot control their dynamics. Drummers often get their start in rock bands where playing loud is part of the job description. For me, the worst experience always happens when I am seated right next to the ride Cymbal of a loud drummer.
Another big volume problem is a loud audience. I have found that if you turn up, they just talk (yell?) louder. Playing out/playing with others is imperfect and has many challenges. If those challenges cause one to freeze up, a new hobby may be in order. Drummers and keyboard players will continue to play loud, even if asked to turn down. I have also found that a lot of guitarists play too loud as well. Perhaps that is a product of their rock music days? I suspect, as was mentioned above, that a lot of musicians suffer from hearing loss and are unable to hear themselves at reasonable playing volumes.
This all reminds me of the old joke: How do you get a guitarist to turn down? Answer: Put sheet music in front of him.
And this: How do you get a keyboard player to turn down: Answer: Take his sheet music away.
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Generally speaking, jazz guitar is a low dynamics instrument. Just listen to the average jazz guitar album, chances are the dynamics are a lot lower than the average horn ones, and even piano ones. Lots of brushes playing.
In live playing though, besides the volume, the energy is something else one has to learn to control. Being able to play in difficult, fast tempo and loud situations is something that besides listening, is very much a physical and a breathing thing. Having hand problems at some point years ago, i did a few Alexander technique sessions, that really helped me focus on being relaxed when playing, and getting better at controlling dynamics, volume, how tense or how loose the muscle system gets when you play, how you regulate your breathing etc.
And language wise, it's not just the volume, it's how strong and "present" an instrument becomes, moving from whisper to fire, like the drums or the piano for example can so easily do. The rhythm section and the soloists have to be on the same track or the music won't be really happening.
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I looooove playing with a good drummer but I’ll tell you what … if they forgot their sticks and remembered on the way, I wouldn’t tell them to go back to get them. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I prefer playing without a drummer, or if there must be a drummer, I prefer one who uses brushes only. Sure, with an electric guitar, I have a volume knob and can compete, but that is a competition that I am not interested in winning.
The volume problem is always big with unskilled players who cannot control their dynamics. Drummers often get their start in rock bands where playing loud is part of the job description. For me, the worst experience always happens when I am seated right next to the ride Cymbal of a loud drummer.
Another big volume problem is a loud audience. I have found that if you turn up, they just talk (yell?) louder. Playing out/playing with others is imperfect and has many challenges. If those challenges cause one to freeze up, a new hobby may be in order. Drummers and keyboard players will continue to play loud, even if asked to turn down. I have also found that a lot of guitarists play too loud as well. Perhaps that is a product of their rock music days? I suspect, as was mentioned above, that a lot of musicians suffer from hearing loss and are unable to hear themselves at reasonable playing volumes.
This all reminds me of the old joke: How do you get a guitarist to turn down? Answer: Put sheet music in front of him.
And this: How do you get a keyboard player to turn down: Answer: Take his sheet music away.
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Maybe buy the other two in ear monitors? (Only 1/2 joking) :-)
Doug
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I've experienced the problem. Here are a few thoughts.
One loud playing teacher said "it's easier to play soft. It's hard to play loud". He was encouraging the class to play loud. I don't quite see it that way, but that's his view.
If you prefer playing quietly, or even starting a solo quietly and then building from there -- good luck at a jam session playing with strangers. You'd have to ask the rhythm section to come down at the beginning of your solo, but I've never seen anybody actually ask that at a jam.
Does not being able to "audiate" mean that the music has become a dull roar? I notice that, if a band is too loud, all I hear is a muddy roar. I can't differentiate the instruments or really hear the music. Earplugs help with hearing in that situation. More importantly, they protect your ears from that assault.
Aside: As an older musician with hearing loss that was probably avoidable, I strongly recommend never subjecting your ears to things that are painfully loud.
So, you can probably expect things to be too loud for you at some jams or ever some gigs. Easiest solution, to a part of the problem, is ear plugs. I carry two little metal tubes with earplugs attached to my car keys. One case contains solid plugs, the other has 15db reduction, which is usually enough.
If you're bringing charts to a friendlier jam, you can put in dynamic markings and then ask people to play them. Some musicians will appreciate that more than others.
In terms of your own volume, I advocate playing with a volume pedal at all times. Not only do you get fine control over your volume, but it also disconnects picking intensity from volume. So, you can play gently, go toe-down on the pedal and have your sensitive sounding lines be plenty loud. Or the opposite.
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Actually AirPods are pretty handy.
There's a wide spectrum of musical situations out there and I like to play in them. Sometimes you want the drummer to hit a bit harder, sometimes a bit softer. One challenge is a band that plays with a wide dynamic sweep. You often need to manage your levels as a player.
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On guitar, more volume on the amp and playing very soft with some dynamics to make them understand that something got cooler but can explode if they let enough room. Originally Posted by brent.h
If they play too loud it means they only listen to themselves and definitely can't comp.
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One thing I've noticed about myself is I consistently tend to hit the strings harder when the drummer's level creeps up there. This creates a more 'pointed trebly sound' and can also affect my time. It's good to have some headroom in the amp for this and have the guitar level not too loud. There's a lot of variables with how you set up your amp and so on, where the speaker is pointing. What can sound right for one moment may not sound right for another. And of course what can sound right for you might not sound right for the other musicians, or the audience.
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Sometimes i use earplugs just to bring the music down to the right decibel for the feel, say using just a -9 db filter. The best gear purchase i've ever done was molded earplugs years ago. Younger generations are accustomed to in ear monitors, and are more conscious about hearing protection. Older ones not so much. I mean i've done session playing using 25 db filters while the rest of the band wasn't using anything over four hour gigs.. Ear hell..
I always carry earplugs or in ear monitors (with a small "more me" mixer with a limiter) that can attenuate up to 25 dbs. So if people are playing too loud, or if i'm standing too close to something no problem.
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Those of us who played instruments in school band/orchestra may learn things that don't necessarily naturally become acquired in less formal paths.
recognition of role
- the music is printed for a specific instrument, and you play in a section of that instrument, and play one of the different parts ("chairs", you play 1st chair score, or 2nd chair score, etc.); this introduces and reinforces that your instrument and you are playing a role within the whole
recognition of dynamics
- both the notes and the staff are littered with marks and symbols above and below, as well as foreign language (not English
) words and phrases. Dynamics are intrinsic because you are likely playing the same instrument and score (chair) with the others near you... your dynamics must be correct and in unison
recognition of intensity
- this is an advanced concept, it is not the same as loudness dynamics; intensity in music means the expression of emotional depth and rhythmic drive to convey energy and power
recognition of conducting
- a school band/orchestra conductor monitors the music, cues the instruments, signals dynamics and intensity, etc. When one sets out to play with others, the functions of the conductor's musical judgement must be transferred to and made manifest within oneself
Yet in spite of all that, there are those missing a formal background who have acquired excellent musical judgement; naturally showing a fine sense of role, dynamics, intensity, and high self conduction. What that means for too loud players (hope or hopeless) I don't know.
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To the OP, just go play with other people. Loud players never get quieter, they just resent you asking them to take it down.
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I have packed up and walked out of jam sessions because of an individual or two playing way too loud and not taking the hint- or a very direct request- to turn the hell down. For some folks it's a competition in some way and I am not interested. Playing music together is a collaboration and if you're clomping all over everyone else, you're not collaborating. If "winning" is the important thing to them, then be my guest. Them thinking they've won doesn't mean I lost.
Some of the other points being made can be valid too- hearing issues, for example. Or somehow being in a bad spot in the room and not being able to easily hear oneself and so turning up. Or hearing someone else too loudly (e.g., an amp or horn is pointing right at them). And for some folks "loud" is a value all of its own- a value I don't share, FWIW. I prefer low-volume playing- in part because I've had tinnitus for 35 years and have some high end hearing loss, and I'd like it to not get worse.
Some people also just don't leave space for others. I hear this often from pianists who mostly practice alone, but not infrequently also from guitarists. Sometimes they are playing the way think they've been taught to play rather than listening to the musical demands of the moment and responding to that. For me, laying out is often the correct choice. I recall even doing this on a gig- a very skilled pianist who did so much inner voicing stuff that there was no room for the guitar and no way not to clash and sound out of tune. It sounded better without me- a little tough on the musical ego ("Why can't I hear a space to play in?" But there really wasn't a space to hear, the pianist had everything covered). Sometimes you just gotta (not) do it.
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There are many people that can play exceptionally well but not in a band.
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Do you use them unconnected as earplugs for sound attenuation? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yeah, or you can use the noise cancellation feature. I mean I should get proper ear plugs but I don’t play that many loud gigs and honestly I’ve never worked with in ears either. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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