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Those are mighty expensive plugs, Christian! I’ve lost a few small items (pick, tuner, ear plug) just by dropping them on stage and never finding them again. Just in case, I carry PuraFit plugs in all my gig bags and my car. They’re $33 for a box of 200 pairs, half of which I’ll still have when I die.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
But I’ve used IEMs for a few years now and love them, Good ones give 30+ dB isolation from ambient noise and complete control over what I’m hearing. The main problems with IEMs are that you’re dependent on the feed to the transmitter and you have to carry your own transmitter and receiver if the venue doesn’t have them. If you run your own sound reinforcement system, you can tailor the feed as you wish. But if you need a feed from a house system, you get what the sound guy or girl gives you. And if you don’t have sound reinforcement, you have to set up your own mic(s) and amplification to drive your monitor mix. Placing the mic(s) is critical. I’ve used my little digital recorder with built-in mics for this, and it works fine if you have a good place to put it.
Of course the best case is working with players who play well at a comfortable volume. Some bands are just plain too loud. I played for a national act at a blues festival (Monkton, MD) where the headliner (we were second on the T shirt ?) was Delbert McClinton. He brought me on stage when his band came on, and they were so loud that earplugs were as effective as aluminum foil against a nuclear blast. I can’t imagine exposing myself to that day after day - it was painful!
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01-26-2025 01:11 PM
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I had etymotic custom fit earplugs. They take a mold of each ear canal. The plugs are hard plastic, should fit perfectly, and come with filters for different levels of sound reduction.
I think they were okay at first, but after some time, they'd shift in the ear canal and leak bass, or so it seemed. I'd think the bassist was playing too loud and then adjust the earplug and suddenly the bass' volume was fine.
I switched to Earpeace plugs which are not custom. But, they actually seal better than the custom fit plugs. I think HearO's are similar. I'm not touting a specific brand, since I haven't compared brands, but I am saying that the cheapies (well, not as cheap as foam plugs) were better than the expensive ones, at least in my case.
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Yeah I have some basic fender ear plugs and they work, but a lot of my colleagues have got fitted ear plugs. The Musicians Union had a scheme - not sure if they still do.
AirPods and noise cancellation are a godsend for the tube (London Underground)… it gets loud!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It’s funny that scheme isn’t a negative term for you.
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As in UK English compared to US English? Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Heh, never really noticed that before.
According to Google (as much as it can be relied upon these days):
BRITISH
a large-scale systematic plan or arrangement for attaining a particular object or putting a particular idea into effect.
"the occupational sick pay scheme"
We would send children to a holiday 'playscheme' for example lol.
Scheming still has a negative connotation though.
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All schemes are negative here. My dictionary has your UK definition, which is unexpected... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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It's really no more unusual that "boot" and "bonnet" for "hood" and "trunk." Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I also note UK folks use "brilliant" just to mean "great" and use the word "clever" with a lot more range of sense than I tend to expect. For me, if a scholar in my discipline says my article or theory is "clever" it means "not really solid or reliable, but... well... clever" But I once heard a splendid scholar referred to as "the cleverest boy at Oxford." It was 100% a compliment.
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I would say that last example is less about definitions and more typical of the high context way people tend to talk in the UK (especially England). Tbh it’s quite tiresome sometimes, but I know I’d miss it if I were to move to a different country, and I know it’s part of how I communicate. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
(It’s a bit like the way you know we like you if we spend most of our time insulting you haha.)
I have noticed that English people sometimes have trouble when travelling overseas because they make a lot of jokes that don’t translate to non brits. I always find myself becoming much more direct.
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That’s OK, Christian. We’re all numpties on this side of the pond Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Enjoying everyone's experiences here. I'll preface this by saying- I highly recommend getting a cheap pair of "high fidelity" ear-plugs to keep on hand for these loud situations, especially in closed spaces. "Earpeace" makes great sets for around $40.00 with various levels of decibel reduction. There's lots of options like that out there worth trying. This alone could make a big difference for you, I know it's helped me a ton and saved my hearing too.
Anyways- Man, there's so many levels to this depending on the levels experience everyone on stage has...I think there's a few things you can do to influence more positive outcomes from the get-go in these scenarios. I got to play a jam session with bassist John Clayton during the Temple Jazz Festival in Texas, and experienced first hand how just one person's attitude and presence can change the rhythm section instantly- even if you're not John Clayton
On Drummers (and bass players even):
1- This is probably a given but, is the audience digging it loud? If it's swinging and the crowd is leaned in, you might just have to crank up and match the energy in the room. But if they are just being too loud, which happens all the time- when it's my turn to solo, I just wave and make strong eye contact with the players (but with a smile) and then do that strong hand gesture like "alright, let's bring it down, bring it down"...And I try to do it in a way that makes them feel "in" on it, maybe even excited about it like "OH cool I gotcha, we're gonna surprise the audience and come way down for this solo"...And then more often then not, they'll either come way down in volume or even totally switch up to playing on a different part of the kit for a different sound. Same end result as just telling someone to turn down, but instead just feels like collaboration instead of ticking them off. Players at a very high level will respond to this instantly, almost telepathically before you can even look at them. Intermediate players just need "woken up" from time time
2- Beyond that- I always try and subconsciously make friends with the drummer (even if I've never met them) by making it clear onstage with my body language that I am even more interested in what they are doing than in my own playing- often looking back at them with with an enthusiastic nod like "yeah man" to let them know I'm engaged, or or turning towards them and engaging with their rhythms during my solo- and I'll tell ya, the funny thing is, even if they don't actually sound that good or are playing too loud/soft- often all it takes is for them to be like "OH DANG, this dude is actually paying attention to what I'm doing and is even somewhat digging it?!" And then they sometimes immediately get engaged and suddenly are playing like a different person. This sets a good precedent and can sometimes be enough to melt the hard exterior of an older jaded drummer, or make a young shy drummer feel more confident. These are the kinds of things I've seen high level players do on the bandstand to bring out the best in others.
3- If things are still too loud and no one's listening to one another, I just dip out and just let the kids have their fun...Because 9/10 times in that scenario, I'm not the only one leaving...the audience has already thinned out.
4- As for Piano/Keys players...This is all just my opinion...At a high level, most of these issues with dynamics and listening skills are far less problematic. But at the intermediate level...If they're playing too loud, unless it's my own band...I usually can't do much to influence them as the guitarist. The nature of their instrument makes them more likely to look down at the keys, (or more so the page if they have a classical background), instead of up at the other players. Don't get me wrong, guitarists are just as, if not MORE guilty of all those behaviors. The difference is, we can move around our instrument with our body to face different directions. That piano isn't moving, so wherever it is placed on stage has a big impact on their ability to communicate through eye contact. It's up to them to engage, which is mostly dependent on their desire to do so- along with listening skills and ability to play without looking at the keys. I just try my best to engage with the drummer/bassist, and then if I hear the keys actually getting in on it- I make sure to look over and acknowledge them! Worst case scenario in the moment, I just use that volume knob.Last edited by LandonEavers; 01-30-2025 at 07:16 PM.
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Something like this is great, variable filters, and tree like shape that works great. Almost perfect frequency response. I have molded eaplugs that cost ten times that as well, but these ones really hold their own, and are way better than plain foam or even worse wax earplugs. I carry these in concerts too.
Buy Alpine MusicSafe Pro | Earplugs for music professionals
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I'm sure we've all seen this one, but...man, just the way that Wes communicates with the band...takes charge, but always in a super humble way. Always listening and super engaged with whoever was around him, despite probably being very short on sleep most the time with his lifestyle. This balanced attitude, combined with a strong command of the music, made whoever he played with want to reciprocate and be on their "A" game.
I know that there is a long standing tradition among people who play this music of emphasizing stories of legends being super harsh on the bandstand or Charlie Parker having a cymbal thrown at him etc. - that has it's place (especially when people are getting PAID), but in my experience, Wes's approach is far more effective at creating cohesion, especially at jam sessions with strangers.
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Bring a Twin Reverb, then you will be the loudest guy. Turn the amp up, waaaaay up, and pick softy. You'll still be the loudest guy. Unless your jam mates are using half stacks or are just completely clueless the message will be sent. And you will be that "man he is loud" guy. It usually only takes once. Originally Posted by brent.h
Playing loudly is a skill. If my drummer doesn't hit effing hard I find a new drummer. There (should) be more use of band dynamics when the band is loud. You can get a lot of mileage just bringing the band down and then up again. I have a sort of jazzy utility player in my band on 2nd guitar now. Much better player than me, but thanks to everyone's obsession with stage volume over the last 20 years, he doesn't have a good handle on cranked amp playing since he is a few years younger. It's a learning curve. An electric guitar played quietly and an electric guitar played loud are almost two different instruments because now you enter the realm of infinite sustain, so certain moves and passages are much easier to pull off since you aren't fighting to get on top of the band.
People say playing quietly is more difficult. In some respects it is. But having 130dB coming out of your amp means every facet of your technique is front and center. Every pick scrape, every bonked note, bumped string, and fumble fingered moved will be heard. People ask bands to turn down now because lots of amateur hour guys don't know what the hell they are doing, aren't using dynamics, and are generally making more noise and less music. No one wants to hear loud shit music. Embrace volume, stay relaxed at all times, and add it to your skill set. Much can be learned setting your guitar amp very loud and using your guitar's volume control to sit on top of the band when it's called for. Good luck.
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Sorry, ‘bone - I think you’re way off on this one. Playing well quietly is more difficult than playing well loudly. Speed with controlled and consistent note volume, articulation, and timing is much more difficult to execute when playing quietly. The narrower dynamic range makes use of volume for expression much more subtle and demanding of good and consistently controlled technique. Even simple technical errors like lightly brushing another string are more evident when playing quietly. Originally Posted by DawgBone
One of the most important things that makes a pro sound like a pro is the confidence with which each note is played. There’s no hesitation or hedging when you listen to Johnny Smith, Tony Mottola, Tal, Herb, etc. Every note blooms in its place. All the intended notes are audible in a chord with no partial muting by the side of a finger and with complete muting or skipping over unwanted strings. There’s no hesitation - the music just flows smoothly and proudly. The louder you play, the less obvious this is - the control and precision are lost in a sea of sound.
It’s not just jazz either. Great blues players have the same skills and play quietly. Sure, players like Chris Cain and Albert Collins crank(ed) it to the max. But Cain, Ford, Duane, Buddy, and their ilk often play(ed) quietly and high volume is another expessive tool to be used for effect. The baseline is moderate volume, with triple f and triple p being the outer limits of the dynamic range. You're using fff as the baseline and cutting back for expression. This makes the volume the main (and pretty much the only) thing most people hear.
Even worse, distortion erases the fine points of technique. So loud and clean is at least revealing of some player skill. But once you’re into full breakup, you can get away with anything and nobody hears it or cares. All those clams become clam chowder.
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I would agree with most of what Never said … but some of what DawgBone said too. Let me maybe try to reconcile the too.
I think it’s harder to play guitar quietly. It’s got a super narrow dynamic range so it’s really hard to get any kind of confident articulation at the bottom end. BB Kings intro to The Thrill is Gone is my go to for how dynamic that can be when someone has control of the low end of the dynamic range (and how using timbre can make that range seem wider than it is).
But I THINK maybe DawgBone might not be talking about playing the guitar loud, but rather about playing the AMP loud. Which are two different things. And I’d kind of agree with him that that’s harder. I’ve had to really train myself to turn up louder than I think I should.
If you have the amp cranked then you actually are forced to play the guitar with every inch of its dynamic range or you’ll just be blowing everyone out of the water all day. If you play with the amp down in the mix then you can hide a little bit also the bottom half of the instruments dynamic range disappears.
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I find it easier to play softly. But, it's not the guitar so much.
It's the sound of the band. It doesn't take many minutes of loud-band before I get concerned about ear protection and/or the music starts to sound like a dull roar -- it loses definition. So, I end up wearing earplugs - which suck some of the life out of the music (and, yes, I've tried different types, including custom fitted).
I don't think much about the guitar's dynamic range. What happens is that quieter notes get lost unless the whole band comes down. One way to compensate is to pick softly and then go toe-down on the volume pedal. I tell myself that this sounds like a quiet note, but you can hear it.
If I play too loud, I'll notice that I can't hear the band over my own guitar and, if I overlook that, someone will remind me to turn down. It's easy to get overexcited and play too loud. Playing heavily arranged music requiring careful reading at the edge of your skill level - during the gig - is an antidote.
One big band teacher said, "if you can't hear everybody else, YOU'RE too loud!"
All that said, if the band is in the right room for it, playing fairly loud isn't all that difficult. At my usual level of gig (which might be described as somewhere distantly across town from Carnegie Hall), we usually don't have a PA setup which allows us to divorce stage volume from FOH. But, when the setup is right, it works.
92% of all customer complaints are that the band is too loud. Only 3% are that the band needs to be louder. The other 5% is the client being upset, but you can't tell why. I made up these statistics just now, but I'm sure they're in the ballpark.
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For me every type of music has an optimal volume. Jazz is best played at medium volume, rock is loud, metal is very loud, bossa nova is soft, classical is acoustic etc. Electric guitar styles, blues, funk, R&B, Gospel, are medium to loud styles with lots of dynamics. Sometimes i play jazz guitar gigs where the volume is so low that the acoustic archtop sound blends with the electric. Perfection! Then for electric guitar, i don't even like playing it at low volumes, at home i've always played electric unplugged.
Both playing soft and loud are an acquired skill, and what comes difficult or easy has to do with the volume at which one practices and usually plays, since the guitar is a different instrument at different volume levels. For me playing loud comes much easier, cause i've done it so much, so the basis of how a guitar feels and responds is loud volume, and a good non master volume tube amp. When i play in low volume things are missing (regarding electrics). With jazz guitars, once you get really loud sounding good becomes difficult, and more importantly the music starts to feel wrong. But when starting out, learning to play loud is a big deal, and not that easy to do. Distortion players spend their lives building a good and clear sound at 110 db, just as jazz players do with the clean sound.
For a jazz sound, my approach is what i believe is very common, use quite a bit more gain then someone would think to use, but pick very softly and maintain a relaxed instrument approach, work with the guitar volume etc. Better to have some dynamics control than a dead sound.
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I agree with Alter. Guitar volume is not a one size fits all thing for all types of music. And I agree with Peter (and by extension, Never and Dawgbone) that both loud playing and quiet playing are important skill sets for a gigging guitarist. Originally Posted by Alter
I usually set my amp louder than I want to play and use the volume knob on the guitar to give me more volume if I need it. In addition to having more volume available, it seems that lowering the volume from 10 on the guitar cuts some highs (I have heard that there are some pots that don't do this), and as luck would have it, I like a warm tone. I do adjust the volume on the guitar while playing as needed and at times, I may want to bring the bridge pickup into play for more "cut". An electric guitar gives you lots of tools to shape your sound. I think it is well advised to learn how to use those tools and when on the bandstand, use them.
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I can't argue with anything you and nevershouldasoldit said. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
But yes, amp loud, pick softly. It's a different instrument to me. My legato licks are just not going to come across as strong with the lessened sustain or the ability to stay on top of the band at legato phrase volumes i.e lack of picking intensity since it is all pull off hammer on. It can be done to some degree but as nevershouldhavesoldit has said, it demands cleaner technique at lower volume and really being in 100 percent control of your bands volume.
I believe in working for cleaner technique always so the loud but fairly clean Twin is still demanding. The sustain via volume sometimes makes it easier to lay in the pocket cause you aren't fighting fading single string lines as much, so my technique relaxes and I can play more freely. I would think a good loud clean amp would also benefit a jazz guitarist in a loud combo with horns, etc.
Just an observation IME in the last 20 years that more and more guitar players seem afraid to play loudly thanks to FOH sound as well as complaining venues and neighbors. Nobody wants loud, bad music. So it's a skill that we don't get to exercise as often and has some different problems. I have played gigs in a small bedroom sized area and I have cranked a Twin all the way. I get a lot more joy when the band can flex it's muscles.
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However you want to slice it, playing drums loud is beginner stuff and it’s weird DawgBone has to seek that out. I’ve never played with a drummer and thought they should be louder.
Punk bands, Rock and Roll bands, Metal bands, all we ever did was try to be louder than the too loud drummers.
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Oh I totally have. It really depends on the project. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I've found most drummers aren't loud enough. And this is after running 20-30 different guys over the course of about 3 or 4 years This idea that low volume=tasty has infected a younger generation who grew up with dB restrictions and bitching club owners and so you are left hunting for the meter on stage because his/her back beat isn't audible. I went through a lot of guys who had no power or had power but no control.These are two way streets. I would tell guys "hit hard and have good meter and the gig is yours" and it was like they intentionally threw me under the bus playing pitter patter all night. First gig, last gig. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Playing drums well loudly is hardly beginner stuff. Power without control is the mark of an amateur. Maybe all your rock and punk guys were amateurs but all the loudest drummers I know and work with also play very well at low volume and I used them in both settings. Dynamic control is the mark of someone who knows what they are doing. Metal, rock and blues require an audible rimshot, an audible backbeat. And even if you are jazzing, if there is not a somewhat authoritative right hand you won't hear the ghost stroking either.
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And control at low power is the mark of a seasoned pro. What's needed for a given gig obviously depends on the genre and the venue. Garibaldi couldn't have survived with ToP for all these years without both power and control. But he can play just as well at conversational volume, as can all of the top pros who drive loud bands of all kinds. This is true for every one of them regardless of genre - Harvey Mason, Terri Lynne Carrington, Bernard Purdie, VInnie Colaiuta, Joe Morello, Dave Weckl, Billy Cobham, Phil Collins, Chris Layton, etc. Jeff Porcaro has one of the longest and most varied discographies in history playing loudly for loud bands. But he played just as well quietly with Emily Remler or Bonnie Raitt as he did heavily behind Michael Jackson (and, of course, Toto). Originally Posted by DawgBone
This is true for all instrumentalists on all instruments. Jon Herrington is a perfect example of a top level guitarist who's probably best known these days for his playing with Steely Dan. But he also has an album of solo jazz standards ("Quiet") played as delicately and sensitively as anything from Smith, Hall, etc. He's up there with all the other Dan greats like Huff, Dias, and Baxter each of whom could scream at top volume through a Dumble or play quietly in an intimate setting with equal dexterity, skill, taste, speed, accuracy, etc.
Top pros play well at any volume and know how to pick the appropriate level for the date. Playing well loudly is difficult - but playing well is difficult. Bringing a high level of control and precision to quiet playing is probably the hardest thing for most drummers to do. In my experience, very few ever get it.
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Arthur Taylor comes to mind, the drummer in Red Garland Trio. All these albums where he plays so softly, brushes and all, but with such groove and energy. Same with the piano, i was in disbelief when i learned Red Garland was a boxer with dozens of professional fights!! My favorite pianist.
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I'm revisiting this thread to give my belated responses (sorry for the delay!).
Yes, there's an opportunity to talk about this. I've mentioned it to the players and host before. Things usually calm for a bit before one of them decides, "Nah, screw it. Imma make this as loud as a blues/pop jam." Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
The other problem is that the mids in the keyboards are swallowing up my guitar and the bass' sub frequencies are almost totally drowning out everyone, even the drummer! There's little to no understanding of audio engineering / mixing.
Lots of the players at my jam don't actually listen to jazz seriously or do the whole get-some-jazz-language-and-shed-them-in-multiple-keys. They're casual musicians who don't even know that there's 'vocabulary' - the solo lines don't sound like they have any blues or bebop or swing riff. They don't know the tradition or names like Ellington or Basie or Prez or Hawk or Billie Holiday or Bird or Bud. They just wanna call difficult tunes 1950s/later with non-diatonic harmony beyond their abilities and blow without any reference to the tradition/language. It's just random scales or pentatonics. So no, they are loud and unmusical. Sorry if this comes of as me being a purist or snob or whatever.
Yes, I agree with the unproductive part. I'm here at the jam to be vulnerable and sensitive and play nice things on pretty tunes and to convey some sort of emotion to the listeners. Today, I called one of my favourite old-time tunes, Confessin, and I couldn't do justice to the tune. The bass player was so new that I had to play it at such a low tempo, and he and the keys played so loudly that I couldn't hear my augmented lines, my quarter note triplet feel, etc. It was so incredibly distracting that I ended up butchering the tune, and I hated that I had to put listeners through that. There was no 'musical aesthetics', I just wanted to survive the overpowering volumes, end the tune, and leave the bandstand immediately. It was so disheartening.
Yes, I found some players I definitely prefer to play with. There's a bassist who has the language and two drummers who are more sensitive to my kind of playing. The thing is, I don't think I can/should say aloud to everyone at the jams, "Oh, I'm only gonna play with these guys who get me." I think that might come off as being rude/vibe-y. Anyway, who am I to say something like that out loud? I'm just a beginner.
Some play with a galloping swing (dotted semiquaver-plus-demisemiquaver) or no swing at all (because they don't know/care about the idiom). While painful, I can still put up with that. What I cannot understand is this overconfidence/conviction in their non-language lines at that high a volume. I mean, if you don't know much about something or a subject, why would you scream gibberish about said subject in public? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The etiquette thing might be it. Originally Posted by JazzPadd
People often don't realise how easily, with a volume knob on whichever instrument, that they can overpower everyone. Maybe I should stop caring, too?
Every single jam, every time I go up, without exception, I ask my bassist and drummer and keys and singer if I'm too loud. All have said, "No. You could be louder if you want." I don't expect anyone to ask like I do, but at least have some decency to think, "Oh, maybe I'm a little loud."
I never turn my volume way up because I know where this will lead: a loudness creep/battle between everyone. When that happens, suddenly, the jam isn't about aesthetics. It becomes about ego and surviving at higher and higher volumes. This is simply untenable and unsuitable for the music.
My community is small, so there aren't any rotating hosts or hosts that are willing to put their foot down and manage volume levels. Maybe because it feels too imposing/prescriptive? I dunno. But there definitely needs to be someone who is strict about these things so that everyone can enjoy the music.
I don't know to convey this to guys who think the default volume should be 10. If everyone plays slightly softer, there is so so so much more room of a variety of dynamics. The lack of control is terrifying, the overconfidence is stupefying, and the volume is paralysing. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Yes, I ask every time I go on. I was never too loud. Originally Posted by RJVB
Yes, some other musicians also remarked about the loudness to the host and players (while they were playing) to bring the volume down. It worked for the next half chorus and then it went back to the same volume.
I have often wondered if it was me that was lacking in musical intensity, but I realised that one can be musically intense without overpowering volumes. They aren't the same thing.
Lol, this tactic! I like. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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