Melodic and Harmonic minor scales. What Shapes?

**shoome** · 06-17-2010, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

No not at all! Play it loud! If the guy at the bar smiles then play it again!

And what if this guy is a drummer?

**merseybeat** · 06-17-2010, 06:22 AM

In my experience Ive never seen a drummer at the bar!

**bobsguitars09** · 06-19-2010, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyb

Bob, I think you are slightly confused. All 7 modes have the same 7 notes which is the collections of tones in the tonal center

I get it now!

"If" I want to have a "shape" or mode for each scale degree I would
be missing 1 and 4. But. If I simply add a F on the first fret in C
to shape 5 I get Lydian! same with shape 7. it is connected with
shape 1. so there is no need for shape 4 and 1 because they can be
the same exact "shapes" with one extra note anyway.
Adding shapes for 1 and 4 in this context would be redundant.

awesome. I get it.. hard to explain it but I get it.

Thanks!

**bobsguitars09** · 06-19-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by shoome

i memorize those shapes based on the major scales like some/most people here do ... here is a little chart that i made for myself. (red dots-root, blue dots-b3 from mm). (If the pic is too big, pls tell me and ill just link it...)

I tried to memorize separate mm-shapes but i just wasnt able to get it done as smoothly as with this approach. It just comes down to the way you like to think of the mm-scale :-)

I like this approach a lot. I am stuck on a few keys though..If I want to apply other scales to these types of shapes.

Key of Db.. Shape 3 starts on First Fret..

Key of Gb.. Shape 7
starts on First Fret

key of B.. Shape 5
Starts on Second Fret.
(3 on First fret of D String and 6 on First Fret on G String..)

Key of E.. Shape 2 E F# G# A B C# D#
starts on Second Fret.
Fine until you get to the 3 on the first fret of the G String..

**bobsguitars09** · 06-19-2010, 07:39 PM

I tried this with the 3 note per string modes also and

F# 7 on F..
Solution? Use Shape 1 on
F# First.

Ab 6 on 1st fret..
Solution? shape 7
on G

**bobsguitars09** · 06-19-2010, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyb

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales. The important thing about scales is that they analyze a sound. If you use the outside note B nat through a Cm7 chord you have the melodic minor sound. You learn a scale to produce a sound. Or I think the sound gets used and then theory makes a scale from it. Goes way back to pre classical period.

It's almost like "What came 1st? The chicken or the egg.

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales.

This is where I get lost. can someone explain this to me? and how you would apply this to maybe,12 keys of major/melodic and harmonic minor?

Thanks!

**shoome** · 06-21-2010, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

Key of Db.. Shape 3 starts on First Fret..

Key of Gb.. Shape 7
starts on First Fret

key of B.. Shape 5
Starts on Second Fret.
(3 on First fret of D String and 6 on First Fret on G String..)

Key of E.. Shape 2 E F# G# A B C# D#
starts on Second Fret.
Fine until you get to the 3 on the first fret of the G String..

Hmm... I don't quiet get what your problem is here... could you explain a bit further? What do you mean by "Shape 7"? In my approach I only use 5 Shapes..
Could be that I just am too tired at the moment

but if you explain your problem a bit further, I'll try to help

(I like Jimmy Bruno's Approach a lot... once you get it, it really helps. But since I'm going to do my auditions tests next year I prefer to cover at least the melodic minor scale by it's own. I really don't think that anyone really needs more than the major-, melodic minor- and sometimes harmonic minor-scales to cover it all...)

**FatJeff** · 06-21-2010, 09:23 AM

There are only 5 shapes in Jimmy Bruno's approach, but they are named for the scale degree on which they start on the lowest string, so there is no shape 4 and there is no shape 1.

Shoome, you are exactly where I was before I entered music school. I enrolled in JB's online school about 6 months before I auditioned for school. I think it helped out a lot, and I credit it for a large part of why I was admitted. You can worry about modes, & harmonic and melodic minor scales once you are actually in school. For now, I would focus on being able to make the changes and creating good melodic lines.

**bobsguitars09** · 06-22-2010, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales.

This is where I get lost. can someone explain this to me? and how you would apply this to maybe,12 keys of major/melodic and harmonic minor?

Thanks!

**FatJeff** · 06-22-2010, 12:26 AM

The 5 shapes are based off the major scale, which contains 7 of the possible 12 notes in the chromatic scale. Therefore there are 5 notes that are "outside". Jimmy's system addresses each of the "outside" notes individually as "colors". Once you internalize these sounds, you are free to pick any/all of them to create your sonic masterpiece.

For the melodic minor scale, which differs from the major scale in only one note (the 3rd), you have a choice. Either learn the scale as a simple alteration of the major scale by flatting the 3rds of the shapes you already know; or, learn the MM scale as its own deal.

**merseybeat** · 06-22-2010, 01:22 AM

The 5 shapes are based off the major scale, which contains 7 of the possible 12 notes in the chromatic scale. Therefore there are 5 notes that are "outside". Jimmy's system addresses each of the "outside" notes individually as "colors". Once you internalize these sounds, you are free to pick any/all of them to create your sonic masterpiece.

For the melodic minor scale, which differs from the major scale in only one note (the 3rd), you have a choice. Either learn the scale as a simple alteration of the major scale by flatting the 3rds of the shapes you already know; or, learn the MM scale as its own deal.

Yes, yes ,yes! It really is that simple! There is really no need to make it more complex (Unless you want to impress your girlfriend!).

Eddie

**shoome** · 06-22-2010, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Shoome, you are exactly where I was before I entered music school. I enrolled in JB's online school about 6 months before I auditioned for school. I think it helped out a lot, and I credit it for a large part of why I was admitted. You can worry about modes, & harmonic and melodic minor scales once you are actually in school. For now, I would focus on being able to make the changes and creating good melodic lines.

You're right I think... In germany you will be faced with a colloquium at your auditions and I'm always afraid that they ask some sort of "why did you play *** over ***?" and I am not able to answer if I dont know e.g. which melodic minor mode I used for an altered dom.
But I think you're right.. If you impress them with melodic lines and play through the changes not sounding like "I have to play 'this scale' over 'that chord' or I'll fail" you've got better chances for passing the audition.

Maybe I should check JB's school out... it's 7months before my auditions at the moment

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Yes, yes ,yes! It really is that simple! There is really no need to make it more complex (Unless you want to impress your girlfriend!).

True, but sadly my girlfriend is a classical musician and therefore I have to watch out even talking about "melodic minor"

**merseybeat** · 06-22-2010, 03:53 AM

Too funny

The question

I'm always afraid that they ask some sort of "why did you play *** over ***?" and I am not able to answer?

My answer would be "Cause I like the sound of it!". This normally raises a smile and a nod of approval from my peers!

Eddie

**shoome** · 06-22-2010, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

My answer would be "Cause I like the sound of it!". This normally raises a smile and a nod of approval from my peers!

Nice idea

I think I'm just too nervous, as I really wish to get to study

I just picked up some information about JB's school. I think I should give it a try... seems to be an alternative but pretty solid approach...

**merseybeat** · 06-22-2010, 04:58 AM

I'm a member of JB's school and I have to say its great! Also have the DVD "No Nonsense Jazz", together they have really relaxed me because its all about playing! Its funny because I had that question posed to me a few weeks ago. I was playing an embellished Em7 arp going to an Embellished B Aug arp and back to Em7 arp all over a C Maj7 and I was asked by a trumpet player "What the hell are you doing? That sounds so cool"! I answered "Dunno? just sounds cool!" And we laughed! In all reality I could have bored him for an hour about how I was borrowing from the V's altered tones, but that would have taken up valuable drinking time!

Eddie

**shoome** · 06-22-2010, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

but that would have taken up valuable drinking time!

yay... sometimes I forget what jazz really is about

joking aside I like geeking around in theory with my clarinetist but sometimes just playing and having fun listening to the other one's playing and hearing how cool something can sound without actually knowing "what's behind" is great

I think I'll subscribe to Jimmy B. once I get home from work...

**billkath** · 06-22-2010, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by shoome

yay... sometimes I forget what jazz really is about

So-that's the difference between Rock n' Roll guitar and jazz guitar? R+R is to get the ladies, and jazz a few pints? Have a lovely time at the pub, boys-I'm off to practice Johnny B. Goode.!!!

**shoome** · 06-22-2010, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by billkath

So-that's the difference between Rock n' Roll guitar and jazz guitar? R+R is to get the ladies, and jazz a few pints? Have a lovely time at the pub, boys-I'm off to practice Johnny B. Goode.!!!

c'mon! how many 'chicks have u pulled off' with playing mixo#11 over tritone subs? Or you doing something like "hey gal, I like playing inside, outside, inside, outside..."!?

ok... not the funniest one... I'm too tired...

**merseybeat** · 06-22-2010, 06:03 AM

Too funny!

Why not play "jump jive" then you get the ladies and the beer! Actually being serious you DO need the theory, but this has to be delivered from a good teacher as it really needs to delivered with a solid structure! But don't make my mistake and think theory was everything! Its not! Remember History suggests that theory is written to try and explain the actual occurrence of something! Django played and everyone but Django wrote books about it

Eddie

**shoome** · 06-22-2010, 07:13 AM

what do I need the ladies for if I can have an additional beer?

I actually have a (in my opinion) very good teacher, who is relatively well known in germany. I go there every 2-3 weeks for 4-6h each lesson. So far this helped me so much... I know theory isn't everything... but I like the approach of "mastering the instrument before going out there and forget all theory while playing" (as far as this is possible for a 'normal' being

**merseybeat** · 06-22-2010, 07:23 AM

but I like the approach of "mastering the instrument before going out there and forget all theory while playing"

Good Luck mate!

**shoome** · 06-22-2010, 07:33 AM

thats the part where I said "as far as it's possible for s.o. like me"

to be serious... my teacher always tells me to "go to some sessions!" and I think to myself after hearing any recording of me playing "nope... u can't go out there at this kind of playing-'level'" ... I sometimes go to sessions (only seeing/hearing, never plaied at one so far) and see people at my age going up on that stage and playing that damn good that I think "... ok! practice-time!"

**ubiguitar** · 07-28-2010, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I am going to learn the Melodic and Harmonic minor scales and all the
modes. Can you recommend what "shapes" I should learn "first"?

I say first because I want to get some set shapes down first
before going beyond that.

Thanks!

Try this book: Modal Scales for Guitar.
here you'll find all fingerings you may need.

**Reg** · 07-29-2010, 09:42 AM

It's not rocket science... each scale has 7 notes. Learn all seven modes or what ever you want to call each scale built starting from each scale degree. Melodic and Harmonic minors are different scales with different characteristic notes and functions. After you get all the modes from each degree of each scale(melodic and Harmonic) learn all the arpeggios built in same manor, you'll see and hear chords built from each degree... Like I said this is not difficult, you can download them or much better, write them out yourself. It's almost impossible to play jazz with out them... actually it is impossible... I used to look at melodic and harmonic material from three minors...Natural, Melodic and Harmonic, was much easier to visualize... eventually you simple hear... best Reg... If would help I can download a pdf with info...

**lkmuller** · 08-01-2010, 09:03 PM

I think amazing things happen when wll 5 shapes start to blend together in your mind and you can move between shapes effortlessly. Kinda like in the movie Avatar, where all the trees in the forest are interconnected to form a giant network, the 5 shapes are all part of one big network, and when you can see the entire network, that's when your right brain is beginning to be unleashed.